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Qantas Recruitment

Old 3rd Sep 2018, 23:52
  #1841 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lower North Shore
Posts: 148
If Qlink drivers aren’t experienced enough (we aren’t all cadets) then I’d love to know what everyone thinks of the 700 hr Grade 3 instructors and Kak Air pilots taking up the backseat of the 787.
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 14:06
  #1842 (permalink)  
Keg

Nunc est bibendum
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,179
Lol. You idiots think it’s just about hours in the log book? Thanks for demonstrating my point perfectly in one respect though.

A few themes running parallel so ill try and cover them off.

1. I’ve long been an advocate that the back seat is a great place to learn about airline operations. Maybe the ideal path for a cadet should be S/O for a few years, then a regional F/O and perhaps even to command before returning to a jet. In that respect Dunda you’re definitely taken a wrong turn in your logic.

2. The right person with little experience is a better long term option than the wrong person with lots of ‘’experience’. Sure, there is a nuance and a balance to this point but there are ways of structuring your operation to cater for the less experienced. (I hope one of you clowns doesn’t think I’m advocating for ‘no experience’. Still, it’s 2018 and very little surprises me this days when it comes to people wilfully mis reading posts).

3. I’m not sure in any of my recent posts the issues that I’ve raised was about the lack of experience that regional drivers have. In fact a re- read of my earlier posts advocates taking a wide range of candidates from across multiple disciplines to assist in building a more robust experience base. Sometimes that means taking on the people I’ve spoken about in point 2. My issue has always been about the atttide, not the experience.

4. Any ‘sole source’ internal recruiting pool is damaging for the long term success of an airline. I like flying with people from other airlines, the RAAF, GA, cadets, internals, because it gives me and others of my vintage a new set of eyes and minds to review our operation. It took some of those eyes post Ansett in 2001 to be able to get some cut through on certain CRM policies and definitions within Qantas.

Let me be blunt- far more than I have been to this point. My sole interest in the recruiting process is whether it gets the ‘right person’ identified in point 2. If you’re in a ‘group airline’ and suggesting that because of this status you should be the only pool of candidates mainline recruits from you’re actually demonstrating why you’re not suitable for mainline- at least not at the moment... maybe when you wise up a bit more and/or adjust the attitude. If you’re suggesting that you’ve got three years experience as a Dash F/O and therefore this will make you a good airline pilot then you’re sorely mistaken. It might if you’re the right person- though the right person would also know that it’s actually less to do with the 1800 Dash F/O hours and more to do with who they’ve become in those 1800 hours. Those hours mean squat though if you’re not the right person. No amount of experience will make up for it.

So take a good hard look in the mirror mirror folks and ask yourselves what makes you the ‘right person’. If you’re telling yourself it’s because you’ve been in the group for a few years so you should have priority then I’ve got some hard news. If you’re telling yourself it’s because of who you are as a pilot and a person and what you bring to the table then I look forward to flying with you.

Actually, I think these words sum it up.
In the airline world, you'll be just fine if you have a good attitude and meet the standard. Most of you're learning will occur on the line anyway. But please, d*ckheads need not apply. No one likes flying with a d*ckhead, no matter what your background is.
Recognise them Dunda? Are these not the crux of my point?
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 14:24
  #1843 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 140
What about loyalty? Some guys have said no to the likes of Virgin, CX or EK to maintain within the QF group only to get the no from QF.

Says little to me for those who use group airlines as stepping stones to apply for competitors only to realise the grass is not greener. Then decide to apply for QF and get accepted.

Does the HR panel consider this in their decisions?
AviatoR21 is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2018, 15:26
  #1844 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,349
Originally Posted by Keg View Post
So take a good hard look in the mirror mirror folks and ask yourselves what makes you the ‘right person’.
Keg,

Good post but I sympathize with the frustration if not confusion with the “process” expressed in this thread. It strikes a similar chord with recruiting here at our equivalent of QANTAS: DL, UA, AA, SW, UPS and FedEx (and even lesser outfits). So, I’ll ask a question or two.

How do the processes at work, from a candidate’s brief and carefully-coached interview performance, purport to foretell with accuracy whether an applicant will be the “right person” over a span of several decades ?

I’ll admit that the recruiting process apparently gets it right most of the time but can’t say with 100% certainty if the process is responsible or whether the majority of all candidates just would’ve turned out as suitable anyway after being immersed in (and further shaped by) the airline and its culture...assuming technical competence as a given.

We’ve all got stories of really good people (whom WE knew far better than any HR process ever could) being turned away or never even getting a shot at an interview…and then flying with people sporting absolutely toxic attitudes who shouldn’t even have been hired to sweep out the hangar; they all came through the same “scientific” process.

How does one account for that ?

Is there follow up post-hiring/training to correlate the effectiveness of the HR process with results the Chosen Ones demonstrate over time ? And then adjustments made to the process to correct the errors demonstrated in the process results ?

The interview process here has reached the level and tenor of a Monty Python skit; even getting the chance to participate involves some mysterious miracle. Professional application review by someone specializing in the particular airline, study and practice for a tech and/or cognitive exam, interview coaching, attending career “fairs” (plural...if you can even get a slot from the limited number available) in hopes of getting literally minutes with a recruiter who might just look at your application, then maybe an online psych assessment like the Hogan, Gallup or some other “organizational fitness” test, then a video interview to see if they even want to give you a face-to-face go at it. A stumble at any point can be life altering.

[Perhaps I’ll address the panel interview itself another time]

And yet, those having none of the traits which the HR experts claim to deliver continue to appear. Yep, their train set and all, but I understand the frustration.

Last edited by bafanguy; 4th Sep 2018 at 21:30.
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 23:23
  #1845 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by AviatoR21 View Post
What about loyalty? Some guys have said no to the likes of Virgin, CX or EK to maintain within the QF group only to get the no from QF.

Says little to me for those who use group airlines as stepping stones to apply for competitors only to realise the grass is not greener. Then decide to apply for QF and get accepted.

Does the HR panel consider this in their decisions?
Firstly, no, they’re not looking for loyalty. We’re talking about people who joined 6 months ago, will be gone again next year, and think that anyone who hasn’t had at least 7 employers by the age of 30 is a weirdo. What they’re looking for is compliance and a willingness to gush effusively on Yammer, which is not the same as loyalty.

Secondly, after witnessing the behaviour of the Group under Alan, Leigh, Olivia & co in recent years, anyone who passes up a more attractive job because of loyalty should probably be rejected on the grounds of diminished mental function.
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 23:37
  #1846 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 3rd Rock
Posts: 91
Secondly, after witnessing the behaviour of the Group under Alan, Leigh, Olivia & co in recent years, anyone who passes up a more attractive job because of loyalty should probably be rejected on the grounds of diminished mental function.
This quote: Hilarious but probably true.

I think the concept of loyalty is something wrongly taught to the current generation from a bygone era. I imagine my career would be further progressed had I shown as little of it as the operators I worked for had. At the end of the day you are a just a number in a system. 30 or 40 years later you walk out for the last time and are forgotten by organisation and remembered only by those you had a personal connection with.
Your replacement will arrive with no knowledge of you and the show will go on.
Lapon is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2018, 02:49
  #1847 (permalink)  
Seagull201
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Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Keg View Post
Lol. You idiots think it’s just about hours in the log book? Thanks for demonstrating my point perfectly in one respect though.

A few themes running parallel so ill try and cover them off.

1. I’ve long been an advocate that the back seat is a great place to learn about airline operations. Maybe the ideal path for a cadet should be S/O for a few years, then a regional F/O and perhaps even to command before returning to a jet. In that respect Dunda you’re definitely taken a wrong turn in your logic.

2. The right person with little experience is a better long term option than the wrong person with lots of ‘’experience’. Sure, there is a nuance and a balance to this point but there are ways of structuring your operation to cater for the less experienced. (I hope one of you clowns doesn’t think I’m advocating for ‘no experience’. Still, it’s 2018 and very little surprises me this days when it comes to people wilfully mis reading posts).

3. I’m not sure in any of my recent posts the issues that I’ve raised was about the lack of experience that regional drivers have. In fact a re- read of my earlier posts advocates taking a wide range of candidates from across multiple disciplines to assist in building a more robust experience base. Sometimes that means taking on the people I’ve spoken about in point 2. My issue has always been about the atttide, not the experience.

4. Any ‘sole source’ internal recruiting pool is damaging for the long term success of an airline. I like flying with people from other airlines, the RAAF, GA, cadets, internals, because it gives me and others of my vintage a new set of eyes and minds to review our operation. It took some of those eyes post Ansett in 2001 to be able to get some cut through on certain CRM policies and definitions within Qantas.

Let me be blunt- far more than I have been to this point. My sole interest in the recruiting process is whether it gets the ‘right person’ identified in point 2. If you’re in a ‘group airline’ and suggesting that because of this status you should be the only pool of candidates mainline recruits from you’re actually demonstrating why you’re not suitable for mainline- at least not at the moment... maybe when you wise up a bit more and/or adjust the attitude. If you’re suggesting that you’ve got three years experience as a Dash F/O and therefore this will make you a good airline pilot then you’re sorely mistaken. It might if you’re the right person- though the right person would also know that it’s actually less to do with the 1800 Dash F/O hours and more to do with who they’ve become in those 1800 hours. Those hours mean squat though if you’re not the right person. No amount of experience will make up for it.

So take a good hard look in the mirror mirror folks and ask yourselves what makes you the ‘right person’. If you’re telling yourself it’s because you’ve been in the group for a few years so you should have priority then I’ve got some hard news. If you’re telling yourself it’s because of who you are as a pilot and a person and what you bring to the table then I look forward to flying with you.

Actually, I think these words sum it up.

Recognise them Dunda? Are these not the crux of my point?
Keg,

Your post is absolutely garbage!

Anyone flying a Dash 8, is more than capable of taking the next step and operating an A320/737/A330/787, AS an F/O,
whether with QF or any other airline around the world.

You seem to have issues or you don't like people coming into QF mainline, from the Dash 8's or general aviation,
you should be continuously mentoring S/O's, not being critical of people.

Words used to describe people in your above post, demonstrate to me, that you have an attitude problem.

You give the impression with your post, that you're the only person with an ATPL and fly a wide body aircraft in the world.
Have a bit more respect towards other pilot's, no matter what they fly.

You're only an employee number and not management!
 
Old 5th Sep 2018, 02:55
  #1848 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1
I like where this is going.
das Uber Soldat is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2018, 03:09
  #1849 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by Keg View Post
If you’re telling yourself it’s because of who you are as a pilot and a person and what you bring to the table then I look forward to flying with you
What a load. I am sure many of our ‘internals’ have sat there and asked themselves the same question, with rejection letter in hand whilst strugglers, pilots who have caused multi million dollar damage bills, a high ratio of females, and non check and training (ie; more expendable pilots) have breezed through the process.

How do you explain it to them?
jetlikespeeds is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2018, 03:15
  #1850 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 58
Keg, so you want the right fit people that you will have to sit next to, yet see no benefit in someone being in the group for 3-5 years being continually monitored and assessed to group standards?

I hope you’ve never been in charge of assessing these poor bastards and affecting their careers.
TimmyTee is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2018, 03:16
  #1851 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by jetlikespeeds View Post

How do you explain it to them?
In Kegs own words “they must have just wanted it more”
TimmyTee is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2018, 03:39
  #1852 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 39
It may not be an indication of numbers, but when the picture of new recruits is sent through in the propaganda emails, there is usually one female to a group of 8 or sometimes 2 to the larger groups. The blokes seem to be getting a fair go.
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Old 5th Sep 2018, 03:45
  #1853 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by Chad Gates View Post
It may not be an indication of numbers, but when the picture of new recruits is sent through in the propaganda emails, there is usually one female to a group of 8 or sometimes 2 to the larger groups. The blokes seem to be getting a fair go.
Didnt someone on here say that roughly a third of the QF cadets were cut, with males making up that entire third? Surely that can’t be correct. Otherwise wouldn’t it mean 30 odd guys were cut, yet not a single female?
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Old 5th Sep 2018, 04:40
  #1854 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In da Big Smoke
Posts: 2,369
The moral to the story is if you want a job in mainline then get a job in non-group airline. Lapon's post is the reality of the situation.
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Old 5th Sep 2018, 05:08
  #1855 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: elsewhere
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by Chad Gates View Post
It may not be an indication of numbers, but when the picture of new recruits is sent through in the propaganda emails, there is usually one female to a group of 8 or sometimes 2 to the larger groups. The blokes seem to be getting a fair go.
So around 1-2 females per 8 males.
I imagine there would be around 1 female applicant to 20-25 male applicants?
It’s very obvious that having a vagina will put you at some sort of overall advantage, we’ve all witness the push for more female pilots and their target of 50:50.

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Old 5th Sep 2018, 05:20
  #1856 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 2,788
Originally Posted by Seagull201 View Post
Keg,

Your post is absolutely garbage!

Anyone flying a Dash 8, is more than capable of taking the next step and operating an A320/737/A330/787, AS an F/O,
whether with QF or any other airline around the world..
Bollocks. Some Dash 8 FOs aren't fit to go any further than being a Dash 8 FO, some of them shouldn't even be on the Dash 8 (this is not specific to the Dash 8, in any population of workers there will be some who are only barely fit to do the job they are doing). Even then, no company wants to hire someone who could operate an "A320/737/A330/787, AS an FO", they want to hire people who can go on to be captains.
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Old 5th Sep 2018, 05:29
  #1857 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 3rd Rock
Posts: 91
Nothing against the sheilas, but what is it that QF/JQ seem to think the blokes are SO bad at that has nessisitated this push towards gender goals.

Sure it's a male dominated job.... probably because it doesn't appeal to that many females in the same way very few males are interested in beauty therapy.

Maybe QF should provide some more transparent feedback as to why an applicant was unsuccessful (ie what they want to see next time), but then again I guess you have to ask yourself why would the really care when there are plenty more applications to burn through.
Whether you stay in the group or leave, are happy or disgruntled, is of little consequence to those making the decision to cut you or not.
Sad but true. As mentioned above, loyalty is your failing IMO.
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Old 5th Sep 2018, 06:46
  #1858 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,720
I’m not in QF but I believe that any Pilot that is employed in a QF group Airline with a successful track record of check and training should get priority over outsiders AND a steamlined selection process......

Some here are holding on the edge too tight.
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Old 5th Sep 2018, 07:45
  #1859 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 64
Posts: 348
Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
Nothing against the sheilas, but what is it that QF/JQ seem to think the blokes are SO bad at that has nessisitated this push towards gender goals.
I doubt that they do. They just think that they'll be more compliant...
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Old 5th Sep 2018, 07:45
  #1860 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 584
Wow, I must have been reading the alternative universe copy of Keg's post!
What I read is that he believes Qantas should be employing the best candidate; one who has a reasonable ability to operate an aircraft and is able to comfortably fit into the crew environment in the back seat at first, but have the appropriate skills (physically, psychologically and socially) to become a F/O then Captain. If that person comes from outside the group or inside is irrelevant and those currently inside may not necessarily be ahead of the queue.

Unfortunately it's largely irrelevant as the impression I get is the only thing you'll need to do is impress the HR representative on the panel and/or meet some other non-operational selection criteria. From what I'm hearing, flying and operational ability and aptitude has little to do with a successful application. That's not to say we've employed a bunch of duds in this round. Quite the contrary, we've employed some excellent pilots, but 'skills' other than flying seem to have a higher priority.
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