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Old 11th May 2018, 08:49
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Hi all, first time poster long time lurker of these forums and I know this is slightly off topic. I was weighing up the options I have been looking at to begin the transition into a career in aviation. So the current situation Iím in at the moment, Iím 27 and Iím a qualified heritage stonemason working at a subcontractor for the last few years and I only completed my year 10 school certificate. Would it be advised to complete my higher school certificate and look at applying through a cadetship in the coming years or chip away at flight training at my own cost? I also worked for Qantas on the ramp at SIT for 4 years in my early 20ís. Any advice would be greatly appreciated to point me in the right direction! Cheers
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:24
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Originally Posted by High_To_Low
Has any internals been given an interview date yet?
Yes.........
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Old 11th May 2018, 10:42
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Originally Posted by goose1


itís more than that, significant allowances (tax free) on top of that!
Allowances don't count. They're fully expended while at work on food, beverages and incidentals, especially when asked by the Deputy Assistant Commissioner for Taxation.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:37
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$110k plus super
itís more than that, significant allowances (tax free) on top of that!
Just to let you know how far Qf Pilots have come - thatís about what S/Oís on the right aircraft (admittedly working hard) were earning when the -400 was introduced in Ď89.

And to make that relevant to today, Back then, 2 bedroom apartments in Bondi were $200k. $220k with a a garage.

Well voted those that ditched overtime and night credits, I say! And for the record, that most certainly was NOT the senior guys, who saw and knew exactly what an S/O B scale and jet lag meant.

Last edited by V-Jet; 11th May 2018 at 12:57.
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Old 11th May 2018, 13:07
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Keg

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I was patten line holder 744 S/O in ‘95. I was nowhere near that number in year 1 and 2. I then went to the 767 as a F/O (and rotated) and didn’t see that sort of coin for another 2- 3 years.

Agree re allowances. No one I know includes those in’pay’.
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Old 11th May 2018, 13:38
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That was unfortunate Keg! I was in your boat too, but I was very well aware of the numbers for those unfortunate enough to be junior barons and then being displaced by seniority from their rightful position 35,000í over HNL to 28,000í over KHI. Would have been a nasty shock

Nor is your pay example making any allowance for inflation. And thatís where it really counts.

The numbers are fact - and show exactly why Alan did such a great job selling the 78 contract.

Last edited by V-Jet; 11th May 2018 at 13:53.
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Old 12th May 2018, 01:22
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Oh please!

Spare me this crap about the long haul award. There are two airlines and the long haul contract was out dated and past it’s used by date. Overtime for being asleep in the bunk?

Look at who was offering to do the flying for less than we get. My very limited calculations suggest we got perhaps 20 % more then what Jetstar get for the same aircraft. I will give that somewhere on here a long time ago someone did a direct comparison 787/380 Syd Dallas and yes it’s a lot of hours. But the gravy train had to run dry one day.

The 787 crew (when compared to other airlines) won’t be living in Potts Point but lifestyle will be good, Fatigue is something that will need to be managed. By all accounts everyone I speak to, and they have mostly come from the 330 and very happy all around.

its a step forward to a realistic point that can always be improved on.

Now about the 75 aircraft on the short haul award that most of us are stuck in
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Old 12th May 2018, 01:45
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Originally Posted by Aussie Fo
Oh please!

Spare me this crap about the long haul award. There are two airlines and the long haul contract was out dated and past itís used by date. Overtime for being asleep in the bunk?

Look at who was offering to do the flying for less than we get. My very limited calculations suggest we got perhaps 20 % more then what Jetstar get for the same aircraft. I will give that somewhere on here a long time ago someone did a direct comparison 787/380 Syd Dallas and yes itís a lot of hours. But the gravy train had to run dry one day.

The 787 crew (when compared to other airlines) wonít be living in Potts Point but lifestyle will be good, Fatigue is something that will need to be managed. By all accounts everyone I speak to, and they have mostly come from the 330 and very happy all around.

its a step forward to a realistic point that can always be improved on.

Now about the 75 aircraft on the short haul award that most of us are stuck in
Yikes, donít let this guy in the negotiating room.
EVERYTHING MUST GO!
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Old 12th May 2018, 01:55
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Every other airline around the world operating 787s seems to be able to do it without 4 pilot night credits and planned overtime. Any many don't have the night credits for 2/3 pilot ops like we do OR overtime for exceeding planned TOD like we do on the 787.

Speaking of New York trips.
A typical 9 day 48/48/48 BNE/LAX/JFK/LAX/BNE is worth 49:30 MPC on the 747. Add in planned O/T of 6:23 gives total pay for the pattern of 55:53 on the 747. Credit for the same trip on the 787 would be 49:30 with no planned O/T.
747 pilots RINed to the 787 go straight to year 4 787 rates.

Using the effective 1 July 2018 rates:

747 year 12 Capt rate of $310.55 x 55:53 = $17,354 for the trip
787 year 4 Capt rate of $353.03 x 49:30 = $17,474 for the trip.
Year 1 787 Capt rate of $327.82 would make the pattern worth $16,227 or about 6% less than the 747.

Argue about the exact $ rate on the 787 all you want, but I prefer having a pay structure that doesn't have up to 30% of my pay at risk and dependent on the route structure determined by the company (as well as being restricted by the strict seniority system!!).
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Old 12th May 2018, 03:06
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Originally Posted by Tuner 2
Argue about the exact $ rate on the 787 all you want, but I prefer having a pay structure that doesn't have up to 30% of my pay at risk and dependent on the route structure determined by the company (as well as being restricted by the strict seniority system!!).
With the incentive of always being LATE. The later we are, the better the pay. What a stupid system. We are our own worst enemy.
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Old 12th May 2018, 03:16
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Compare a very senior A380 Capt roster with a very junior A380 Capt roster. One doing mainly DFW and LAX trips and the other LHR and Asian trips. Both have been in the company 30+ years, yet one is making >$50k per year more and working 30 or more days a year less. How is this justifiable?
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Old 12th May 2018, 03:36
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Angel

Originally Posted by Tuner 2
Compare a very senior A380 Capt roster with a very junior A380 Capt roster. One doing mainly DFW and LAX trips and the other LHR and Asian trips. Both have been in the company 30+ years, yet one is making >$50k per year more and working 30 or more days a year less. How is this justifiable?

ďDonít worry son, youíll be senior one day.Ē

Except most of us will be lucky to have 5 years as a east coast captain. Especially those who have plans to retire at 60 and enjoy the fruits of working for a airline that treats staff as a commodity rather than a asset
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Old 12th May 2018, 03:39
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Now that there is no overtime on the 787, it will be interesting to compare sick leave rates with the other fleets in a few years, once the gloss has worn off of course. If you’re getting paid regardless, going sick is an easier decision.

Not me obviously, I do it all for the glory of qantas, but everyone else...
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Old 12th May 2018, 03:47
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I wonder though if there’ll be less upline illness too as people no longer ‘push on’ so that they don’t miss out on the o/t $$$. Conversely we may find the rate of infection throughout the fleet may also decrease because people aren’t stressed about missing out on the o/t and stop turning up to work less than healthy and infecting everyone else on the crew.
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Old 12th May 2018, 03:51
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Yep, all fair points.
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Old 12th May 2018, 06:22
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Tuner 2 the problem with your maths is that the majority of the patterns ex BNE are only 8 day trips so only worth 44 hours with MDC.
Only a 24 hour slip required Southbound in LAX. The odd 48 hour slip is not common.Only SYD patterns require 48 hours.
Sadly Thats as good as is gets for the 787. Accept the point that in the early days longer slips will lessen the impact.
Like to see a MEL/LAX or a PER/LHR comparison.

Aussie FOs comments are not only foolish but show the race to the bottom mindset that has led to the situation we find ourselves in with Jetconnect or any other entity. Please stay well away from any negotiations please!
Perhaps the Network A320 or Jetconnect pilot that is already endorsed and backed by a legal comfort letter can do his/her job for 30-50% less. Maybe he/she thinks your overpaid and on an expensive contract? No cost for QF to transfer away your flying and have you on MGH. If QF Short Haul switch to A320s why couldnít Network already endorsed take your flying? Or Jetconnect with a fresh comfort letter.
Perhaps you could race him/her to the bottom too? I wouldnít be so smug.
I donít agree with this, but itís no different to your comments on other awards that you make Ill considered generalisations about.

Keg. Very sound points regarding Sick leave without overtime though. One up side.
Fatigue, family issues or a 50/50 if on the cusp of getting sick as you say and itís no penalty. As you wisely pointed out no advantage to keep the show on the road. Allows the legal intent of the CAO/CARs to not cause a $ penalty
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Old 12th May 2018, 06:34
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Originally Posted by fearcampaign
Tuner 2 the problem with your maths is that the majority of the patterns ex BNE are only 8 day trips so only worth 44 hours with MDC.
Only a 24 hour slip required Southbound in LAX. The odd 48 hour slip is not common.Only SYD patterns require 48 hours.
Sadly Thats as good as is gets for the 787. Accept the point that in the early days longer slips will lessen the impact.
Like to see a MEL/LAX or a PER/LHR comparison.

Aussie FOs comments are not only foolish but show the race to the bottom mindset that has led to the situation we find ourselves in with Jetconnect or any other entity. Please stay well away from any negotiations please!
Perhaps the Network A320 or Jetconnect pilot that is already endorsed and backed by a legal comfort letter can do his/her job for 30-50% less. Maybe he/she thinks your overpaid and on an expensive contract? No cost for QF to transfer away your flying and have you on MGH. If QF Short Haul switch to A320s why couldn’t Network already endorsed take your flying? Or Jetconnect with a fresh comfort letter.
Perhaps you could race him/her to the bottom too? I wouldn’t be so smug.
I don’t agree with this, but it’s no different to your comments on other awards that you make Ill considered generalisations about.

Keg. Very sound points regarding Sick leave without overtime though. One up side.
Fatigue, family issues or a 50/50 if on the cusp of getting sick as you say and it’s no penalty. As you wisely pointed out no advantage to keep the show on the road. Allows the legal intent of the CAO/CARs to not cause a $ penalty










Had a look at the BNE pattern book and there is a mix of 8 and 9 days JFK trips. Some even have 72 hours in LAX in one direction to make a 9 day trip.

With an 8 day trip 48/48/24, the numbers are:
787 yr 4 capt: 353.03 x 44 = $15,533
747 yr 12 capt: 310.55 x (44+6:23) = $15,647
Less than a 1% difference.

Obviously PER/LHR/PER with O/T will be different, however the 747 can't fly this route and this is the most extreme route for doing any 787 vs 747 comparisons. I doubt that it would even be profitable for the 747 to fly PER/LHR, even if it had the range. Looking at the 787 patterns, there are also plenty of domestic patterns like PER/MEL/PER and MEL/BNE flying, all of which pays more than any other type on those patterns and which retain full night credits for any 2 pilot ops.

At the end of the day, even the "worst case scenario" of a full roster of 4 pilot PER/LHR/PER trips equates to 4.5 x 6 day trips per 56 day BP at planning divisor of 155 or 27.2 days per 56 day BP - remembering that sign-on day 1 isn't until about 6pm local.

I think we need to see what the route network looks like with the 14 jets. All we have so far is the 787 EBA haters latching on to the "lost" overtime on the PER?LHR route, which we wouldn't otherwise even be flying.

Last edited by Tuner 2; 12th May 2018 at 06:46.
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Old 12th May 2018, 08:13
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I think we need to see what the route network looks like with the 14 jets.
Bit hard to argue about money/fatigue at the moment - In stark contrast to every other QF fleet, I believe there are about 100 crew per 787 at the moment! Almost as difficult to get a seat as on staff travel!
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Old 12th May 2018, 13:12
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Crikey, reading this how could any QF drivers be fatigued or over worked!

Unless youíre on the 73, then thatís a different kettle of fish.
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Old 12th May 2018, 22:03
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Originally Posted by Seagull201
They're my thoughts.
ĎWhat youíve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone reading this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.í

How old are you ?

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