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Old 24th Oct 2021, 10:26
  #2501 (permalink)  
 
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That's the reason the US pilot unions enacted the 'scope clauses'. Regionals were force limited to maximum aircraft size by union terms to avoid white-anting legacy airline pilots terms and conditions.
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Old 24th Oct 2021, 12:05
  #2502 (permalink)  
 
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Unions enacted nothing…

That's the reason the US pilot unions enacted the 'scope clauses'.
They foresaw the adverse potential and negotiated ‘scope’ clauses with the companies. In a very short time the companies realised they didn’t like the ramifications but it was too late; it was in the contract.

However, companies like Qantas observed & learned quickly. Even before James Strong was Qantas’ CEO it was stated that Qantas would NEVER allow scope. As recently as the ‘90s, a segment of QF’s mainline pilots offered management significant savings/economies provided scope was included for all future Mainline types. IT WAS REJECTED OUT OF HAND.

Jetstar, Jetconnect, Q-link, Q-jet, etc make the reason why obvious.
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Old 24th Oct 2021, 22:54
  #2503 (permalink)  
 
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This article from ALPA cites the importance of scope clauses and ALPAs collective bargaining power;

https://public.alpa.org/portals/alpa...2003_Scope.htm

The problem with Australia is that each airline has its own union which means any coordinated move by pilots to regulate terms and conditions is restricted to each company at a time. 1989 showed that when one union goes out on a limb, the union that felt it had nothing to lose just watched and let it happen. Without getting into the politics of that, ALPA has always represented a huge majority of US pilots and as such scope clauses are relatively easy for them to negotiate and apply to a number of airlines at once. Yes having your own union does mean you focus on particular company issues, however a strong large union can prevent degradation of conditions across a number of workplaces. Maritime unions locally are an example of this.

Of course if one union goes up against its own company for scope it will get rejected out of hand, that's so easy to see. Threaten the whole industry with walk out if scope is not implemented, now you get the attention of the top players. What bargaining power did a QF pilot have in the 90s? AN had just squashed the 89 rebellion dramatically using government support, that would be pretty fresh in the minds of pilots and management. Of course anything that hamstrings a companies ability to be flexible will be rejected out of hand.

Some quotes from the article;
Capt. Woerth told ALPA’s Executive Board in September 2002: "We will never be able to stop the race to the bottom in every economic downturn or to stop competing for jobs within a code-share alliance if we don’t get some degree of control over what the terms and conditions are for qualifying for a code-share.

"I firmly believe," Capt. Woerth said, "that if we coordinate our joint campaign for this next-generation scope, which involves more code-share governance [and] puts as much or more emphasis on the quality of the pilot contracts involved as in the quantity of aircraft types permitted, then the profession and every pilot in the code-share arrangement will be better served."
First Officer Ron Abel (United), BSIC co-chair, says, "Scope is an important and necessary tool for protecting our jobs, but it cannot be truly effective unless pilots within an airline system understand that all our jobs are at stake if we don’t work together to provide scope protection on a system or global basis.

"No one should pretend that the way ahead will be easy," F/O Abel says, "but drawing lines around each pilot group’s flying isn’t providing the protection we need for the whole system."
That last one really is what happens in Australia.

Last edited by 43Inches; 24th Oct 2021 at 23:08.
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Old 24th Oct 2021, 23:54
  #2504 (permalink)  
 
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Ollie is a NZ Jetstar pilot who encouraged mainline pilots to vote NO to the LongHaul EA because he “would like the chance to fly the A350”, when Tino went nuclear an declared he’d get someone else to fly it.

I believed it was tongue in cheek, but maybe it wasn’t. Neither a troll or an angel.
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 02:44
  #2505 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post

Threaten the whole industry with walk out if scope is not implemented, now you get the attention of the top players.
.
Yeah, nah. Not permitted under Australian law. The Labor party did away with that in the late ‘80s.
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 03:08
  #2506 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, nah. Not permitted under Australian law. The Labor party did away with that in the late ‘80s.
While you won't get away with it again company by company, a whole industry that jointly decides not to go to work on a day, who's going to fine or launch legal action against 10,000 at once. The walk out rules are only to stifle individual companies from being shut down, there is no way the legal system would cope with or want to cope with an industry wide stop work.

Red light says I must stop, but there is no barrier from me driving right through it. I can then choose not to pay the fine, if I did it on my own, I would suffer the consequences. If the whole of Melbourne decided red lights mean nothing and just did it en-masse the legal system could do nowt to stop it, not enough police to enforce it etc etc.

The recent riots in Melbourne proved all this, 3-5 thousand protesters, a few hundred arrests. Mostly only those that committed violent acts only.

The reason the ATC guys got away with it and AN folk didn't, one controlled the whole workforce, the other was just half of a workforce.

The ideal situation would be a union like ALPA to go global, and we just all jump on board. Then you can coordinate with even foreign hires as well, at least have all these unions work together and not as separate entities.
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 03:25
  #2507 (permalink)  
 
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The reason the ATC guys got away with it and AN folk didn't one controlled the whole workforce the other was just half of a workforce.
Also helps that the Labor government decided to use the Military as scab labour. Then they imported foreign labour. The only way to achieve your goal is to threaten a mass resignation with signatures and we all know how that went last time around.

Basically you have no real industrial options other than resignation unless you want to start a hard core militant union like the MUA or CFMEU. The problem here is that pilots are never going to play that game and aviation as a industry is far to individualistic in its nature so that it will never really work anyway. And even if you somehow manage to organise a tougher union stance the airlines will just go to the world market and start importing labour. Something that doesn't happen to alot of the trades in Australia and hence their ability to run a tough union as they are the ones who control the labour. (and also another reason why your good local tradie does so well. He has no labour competition) Aviation by its nature is international so importing pilots from the rest of the world won't be too difficult.

Just consider for a moment the number of Australians that are working for foreign airlines who would love to come home to a command. That's your competition right there and that's without the government even orchestrating visas. Then following on from them is everyone who has the right to live in Australia. UK, South Africa, Canada, USA. Honestly it wouldn't be very hard to break any aviation labour campaign at all.

The only good news here is that there might be a real global shortage of pilots coming in 10 years or so. The fact that flying training is now prohibitively expensive along with a changing attitude of younger folk and the reality they have seen of how locked in you are as a pilot and how the airlines have destroyed all the career paths in the industry might actually bring about some change but it may not too. The executive will just run the well dry and then go cap in hand to the government complaining.

Last edited by neville_nobody; 25th Oct 2021 at 03:36.
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 03:41
  #2508 (permalink)  
 
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I do agree in part, however, ALPA has done very well for legacy airlines in the US, hence those pilots at the Majors have enjoyed good wages and conditions for some time. The companies have to go chapter 11 to get any movement on pilot contracts. The difference there is all pilots at the large majors stuck together in writing these deals. AN and QF might have worked on different planets when it came to pilot bodies cooperating on wages and conditions. Again collective bargaining really only works when you have a large collective industry wide, otherwise the negotiations are just between one employer and its people and then the company pretty much gets what it wants, with, here's some cpi for you. Then when you ask for more, 'oops our company is no longer viable due to greedy pilots', starts a new subsidiary and hires pilots on less of everything etc etc, we all know how that goes...

Maritime unions control everything from training to hiring policies.

The only good news here is that there might be a real global shortage of pilots coming in 10 years or so.
Means nothing to me, Australian pilots got virtually nothing out of the last 'shortage'. Shortage means nothing if the corps control the tap and not the workers. In fact during some of this so called 'shortage' didn't QF guys accept a pay freeze at one point?
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 03:59
  #2509 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
While you won't get away with it again company by company, a whole industry that jointly decides not to go to work on a day, who's going to fine or launch legal action against 10,000 at once. The walk out rules are only to stifle individual companies from being shut down, there is no way the legal system would cope with or want to cope with an industry wide stop work.

Red light says I must stop, but there is no barrier from me driving right through it. I can then choose not to pay the fine, if I did it on my own, I would suffer the consequences. If the whole of Melbourne decided red lights mean nothing and just did it en-masse the legal system could do nowt to stop it, not enough police to enforce it etc etc.

The recent riots in Melbourne proved all this, 3-5 thousand protesters, a few hundred arrests. Mostly only those that committed violent acts only.

The reason the ATC guys got away with it and AN folk didn't, one controlled the whole workforce, the other was just half of a workforce.

The ideal situation would be a union like ALPA to go global, and we just all jump on board. Then you can coordinate with even foreign hires as well, at least have all these unions work together and not as separate entities.
What you are talking about is unprotected industrial action. Companies would not have to go after all employees to be effective, they might just limit themselves to those that organised the action. It would be very difficult to organise action on such a massive scale without leaving a trail to point to the organisers. You will not find any union (that you would want to be a member of) that would choose to place itself, its staff and its members in a position where they could be found liable for the damages caused to a company by such a stoppage.
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 04:13
  #2510 (permalink)  
 
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To be honest it would never need to get to that, protected industry action across the board would be easy to achieve if it was a united front under the banner of job and wage security. It just would not get up under one company as per previous point, it would be quite easy to prove to a commissioner that subsidiaries are being used to white ant conditions and that industry wide protection is required in contract set up. This has been done in other industries. It's not hard to get PIA if the company refuses to negotiate a topic, like scope.
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 05:05
  #2511 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gazza mate View Post
Thanks Fatguyinalittlecoat, that explains his posts.

Ollie, I feel sorry for you.
Don’t feel sorry for me, I am quite happy in life. There needs to be some realisation that given the structure of the Group, management have many options for crewing their aircraft, we have no say in it.

oh and by the way I am no longer in Jetstar NZ, I enjoyed my short stint their but have moved on.
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 06:26
  #2512 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
To be honest it would never need to get to that, protected industry action across the board would be easy to achieve if it was a united front under the banner of job and wage security. It just would not get up under one company as per previous point, it would be quite easy to prove to a commissioner that subsidiaries are being used to white ant conditions and that industry wide protection is required in contract set up. This has been done in other industries. It's not hard to get PIA if the company refuses to negotiate a topic, like scope.
You won't get approval for PIA for a claim that is not an allowable matter. You might wish to check what happened in 2011 to Qantas mainline pilots.
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 05:18
  #2513 (permalink)  
 
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Meanwhile the TWU and MUA are trying to shutdown the country for Christmas.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 07:31
  #2514 (permalink)  
 
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Can anyone confirm / deny the rumour that the chief pilot mentioned on a call in today that recruitment was likely to re-open in the new year?
Positive signs.....
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 07:47
  #2515 (permalink)  
 
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Yes he did.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 08:46
  #2516 (permalink)  
 
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I really don't want to be the fly in ointment here guys , but the data for August revealed 14% of pre-Covid rpt pax numbers
Data will be the same for Sept/Oct no doubt
Hope they do recruit but when your international/domestic 0%/14% of pre-covid ; how can this happen ?

Who is going to be game to travel to USA ?
You won't get travel insurance, so if you contract Covid whilst away & need hospital - you will be down six figures
That's a fair sort of gamble

Hope they do recruit & everyone else in travel

Why does everyone call me a pessimist ?
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 08:52
  #2517 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
I really don't want to be the fly in ointment here guys , but the data for August revealed 14% of pre-Covid rpt pax numbers
Data will be the same for Sept/Oct no doubt
Hope they do recruit but when your international/domestic 0%/14% of pre-covid ; how can this happen ?

Who is going to be game to travel to USA ?
You won't get travel insurance, so if you contract Covid whilst away & need hospital - you will be down six figures
That's a fair sort of gamble

Hope they do recruit & everyone else in travel

Why does everyone call me a pessimist ?

thanks telfer. Can you call Dick and AJ and let them know please, before they make the mistake.

in all seriousness, I think travel will go completely crazy. We saw that happen last time we opened up. Every airplane was full, just about everywhere. I don’t see this being any different.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 09:51
  #2518 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for the support Mate - it matters

Do you reckon I should also tell them that they have the wrong aeroplanes & that the aircraft are a bit too old
That their Anglophile focused OS strategy , well it might just need a second glance - it might actually be an idea to have
more than one city pair to PRC

Spiffing show Old Chap - lets just keep QF for the "right" passengers

Perhaps I shouldn't say anything the Marvelous Chappies at QF have been right on the money so far with QF "ramping up" & "ramping up" - Tootle Pip !
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 09:59
  #2519 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
Who is going to be game to travel to USA ?
Me, I'd love to go.

Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
You won't get travel insurance, so if you contract Covid whilst away & need hospital - you will be down six figures
That's a fair sort of gamble
I'm vaccinated, what's the problem?
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 10:47
  #2520 (permalink)  
 
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Not everyone sees the world through your eyes, Telfer. If they did, we wouldn’t have invented the wheel yet, let alone Aviation.

I suggest you take what’s left of your LWOP, buy a used backpack from eBay, and go travel the remote regions of Asia or South America.

Yes, with no travel insurance, and preferably take very little money. Make do with what you find. Fix someone’s canoe for food. Build a shack for shelter. Fall in and out of love with the local girls you stumble across. Find lifelong friends.

Take some risks. Get scared, and then get overwhelmed with joy.

Then come back and fly for Qantas - then we will enjoy flying with you and hearing your stories.
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