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Old 5th Feb 2021, 01:48
  #2441 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 495
Originally Posted by Arthur D View Post
What amazes me the most is that mainline pilots have sat back and accepted this with little more than a whimper, a PA and a red tie.
Itís extremely had to counter these moves when having a scope clause or taking industrial action to pursue one is illegal.

No mainline pilot has lost his job (CR) as a result of these moves so proving harm is very difficult.

Transmission of business rules set an impossibly high bar to fight a case against.

A court case against an obvious shell company subsidy gets thrown out on jurisdictional grounds.

Even taking legal industrial action of the most minor variety gets shut down by the federal government.

AIPA very much has the cards stacked against it in fighting this erosion of flying. Despite that, after 2 decades of Qantas trying, mainline pilots still hold on to the majority of their hard won conditions. That ought to be more amazing.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 02:36
  #2442 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 41
Posts: 4
All the guys claims are incorrect
1. Only 12 aircraft
2. Never fly internationally
3. All to upgrade in 5 years

The letter just says "expect" & based on the first 7 years of the century it is likely a reasonable call. QF don't run or control the US banking system & loan markets
& they didn't know it was about to collapse, in a lot of countries 25% plus of pilots hit the street. Remember age 65 had just come in & management didn't know how
that would impact. At least half of the guys stayed the full extra five years. & some beyond that , went to 737 & became unwell

Massive impact on upgrade

People claiming it was said "international doesn't fit low cost" might have been , probably just management being candid with you. LCC up to that point was primarily domestic
, nobody had really made medium range low cost work. The point is that it was not said that JQ would "never" fly internationally or would "never" exceed 12 airframes

Obviously been repeated so often that many actually believe it

Great Yarns , but that is all they are
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 03:31
  #2443 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wellington
Posts: 250
Looking at your past posts Telfer, you know what the worse thing is about you? You take a perverse pleasure in the demise of our Industry. Whilst many thousands of us- you are not included include, because you are obviously not, from your zero knowledge of IR negotiations, zero knowledge of both LH and SH EA's- struggle with to make ends meet, you waltz on here with "gentlemans' handshakes" and singing "kumbayah" as Industrial Strategy. Why don't you take a trip to Byron Bay, tell all and sundry how wonderful you are, I am sure they need another muppet up there.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 03:33
  #2444 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wellington
Posts: 250
BTW Telfer, I blocked you, I had enough of your dribble.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 03:36
  #2445 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wellington
Posts: 250
Originally Posted by Beer Baron View Post
Itís extremely had to counter these moves when having a scope clause or taking industrial action to pursue one is illegal.

No mainline pilot has lost his job (CR) as a result of these moves so proving harm is very difficult.

Transmission of business rules set an impossibly high bar to fight a case against.

A court case against an obvious shell company subsidy gets thrown out on jurisdictional grounds.

Even taking legal industrial action of the most minor variety gets shut down by the federal government.

AIPA very much has the cards stacked against it in fighting this erosion of flying. Despite that, after 2 decades of Qantas trying, mainline pilots still hold on to the majority of their hard won conditions. That ought to be more amazing.
We've held on to those conditions- fantastic- but at what cost to promotion? Average time to Command in 2005 was about 12 years. Before Covid hit- about 21 years.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 03:39
  #2446 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 495
Originally Posted by Street garbage View Post
We've held on to those conditions- fantastic- but at what cost to promotion? Average time to Command in 2005 was about 12 years. Before Covid hit- about 21 years.
Believe me, Iím not happy about the situation, it infuriates me but Iím realistic about whoís at fault and it ainít AIPA.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 03:55
  #2447 (permalink)  
Keg

Nunc est bibendum
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,520
Originally Posted by Street garbage View Post
BTW Telfer, I blocked you, I had enough of your dribble.
Iíd previously had them blocked. Couldnít remember why so unblocked them to read this part of the thread. It became clear why I had blocked them in the first place so back on they went.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 04:05
  #2448 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Prison Island (WA)
Posts: 1,448
Iíve stolen the below analysis from Qrewroom. I havenít checked the numbers but have no reason to doubt their accuracy:

In 2002 the Qantas jet fleet composition was :

B744: 25
B747: 8
B767: 29
B737: 48
A330: 2 ( Mainline Total: 112)

Bae146: 17
B717: 14

Total: 143

Fast forward to 2021 and the Qantas Group jet fleet consists of:

A330: 28
A380: 12
B737: 75
B787: 11 (Mainline Total: 126)

JQ
B787: 11
A321: 26
A320: 53 (+Asia/Japan) 42

NatJet
B717: 20

Network
F100: 17
A320: 6 (+5)

EFA
B737: 5
B767: 1
A321: 1

Total 308.

So in 18 years Mainline has progressed from 112 to 126, and the Qantas Group has moved from 143 to 308.

Now Alliance E190: 3(+12)


Sobering stuff
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 04:08
  #2449 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Hyperspace
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Originally Posted by Street garbage View Post
We've held on to those conditions- fantastic- but at what cost to promotion? Average time to Command in 2005 was about 12 years. Before Covid hit- about 21 years.
I think that sums it up perfectly. The days of getting the money and the box are well and truly over.

If you want a gig in mainline, on mainline coin, then 21 years ++ to command should be your expectation.

If you want quick promotion, then pick somewhere else.

What will be fascinating to see over the next decade or so is what happens when there is no more growth in the alternative airline?

21 years to command in mainline pays a hell of a lot better than 21 years in Jetstar, QantasLink, Alliance etc. etc.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 04:12
  #2450 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 41
Posts: 4
Guys come on here & make screeching emotive statements, lose the discussion & play the man

Oh how it upsets be so , as that great crooner Kamal once said "why oh why are people so unkind ?"

All I did was point out that those statements were never made , & that a significant reason for the delay in commands was that the majority of guys stayed well past 60 as soon as they had the opportunity. Can't you see how they stay long time after 60 brigade have had a significant effect on command time

I certainly don't take any perverse pleasure in the economic & other carnage this virus has taken on travel sector, & people employed there. What an odd comment

I was saying at outset that getting 50% of international back within 2 years would be a great achievement, got howled down , think someone called be a narcissist
& guys were still in fantasy land that A350s were coming

Turns out likely we won't even have 5% international back within two years - & it's a tragedy

Not very sophisticated to simply abuse someone because they have a different viewpoint (doesn't phase me) . Lot of guys here seem to have very simplistic thinking about very detailed & complicated problems - "it will all be over by Christmas kind of stuff". Don't think the CEO has helped by big talking numbers re; domestic recovery that are just nonsense

The 21 years to LHS no way that is an average number , typically 14 years , sometimes tad higher sometimes lower, think Perth 737 lhs was ten years

The guys who have really lost are career FO/SOs some of whom occupied these positions decade in decade out. Understand a lot of the Ansett hires from 2001/2002 are still SOs. All of the 380/747 FO/SOs could have upgraded & will pay a price for having a flat earth theory

Think we will be lucky to be at 25% three years in

But if you want to believe the 380s are coming back , 350s will be ordered , all going to go gangbusters - that is your right. I think it's going to take at least 3 years possibly even five or more to get back to 50% of pre-covid international

Last edited by Telfer86; 5th Feb 2021 at 05:24.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 04:59
  #2451 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Denmark
Posts: 0
I’d rather do 21 yrs at JQ than 1 at mainline. Just me tho.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 07:55
  #2452 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: SE QLD
Posts: 408
Originally Posted by Arthur D View Post
21 years to command in mainline pays a hell of a lot better than 21 years in Jetstar, QantasLink, Alliance etc. etc.
True - lifestyle is a mix of a bunch of factors. Some like the quick command, others the lifestyle of a legacy airline. Not much use for the command if it pays less than you need / want.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 07:56
  #2453 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: SE QLD
Posts: 408
Originally Posted by Ragnor View Post
Iíd rather do 21 yrs at JQ than 1 at mainline. Just me tho.
We need people like you. Not everyone gets into mainline. If youíre happy at JQ, thatís great.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 11:52
  #2454 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 99
Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Management have directly stated that will not be happening.
Management spent 6 months telling NJS Perth crew ď The Perth base is essential for the continued operation of the 717Ē ask those folks (and their families) how thatís going for them...
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 12:18
  #2455 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Gladstone
Age: 45
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post

But if you want to believe the 380s are coming back , 350s will be ordered , all going to go gangbusters - that is your right. I think it's going to take at least 3 years possibly even five or more to get back to 50% of pre-covid international

What donít you just say 8 or 10 years...itís just as easy to say 10. Absolute dribble
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 13:11
  #2456 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: M.I.A.
Posts: 189
Originally Posted by Beer Baron View Post
Itís extremely had to counter these moves when having a scope clause or taking industrial action to pursue one is illegal.

No mainline pilot has lost his job (CR) as a result of these moves so proving harm is very difficult.

Transmission of business rules set an impossibly high bar to fight a case against.

A court case against an obvious shell company subsidy gets thrown out on jurisdictional grounds.

Even taking legal industrial action of the most minor variety gets shut down by the federal government.

AIPA very much has the cards stacked against it in fighting this erosion of flying. Despite that, after 2 decades of Qantas trying, mainline pilots still hold on to the majority of their hard won conditions. That ought to be more amazing.
AIPA doesnít need to keep pushing to gain coverage of those crews. Talk about conflict of interest. The rainbows and lollipops idea of covering all group pilots as being the best scenario for all is BS.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 20:59
  #2457 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,435
Originally Posted by aussieflyboy View Post
Management spent 6 months telling NJS Perth crew ď The Perth base is essential for the continued operation of the 717Ē ask those folks (and their families) how thatís going for them...
The runs to ASP and DRW were only a small part of ADL baseís work. Most of it was J curve. Theyíll be needed in similar numbers when the domestic network is back to normal.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 23:06
  #2458 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 3,096
The runs to ASP and DRW were only a small part of ADL baseís work. Most of it was J curve. Theyíll be needed in similar numbers when the domestic network is back to normal
Isnít that where Alliance comes in with their Ejets?
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 01:03
  #2459 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,435
Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Isnít that where Alliance comes in with their Ejets?
To ASP and DRW only. Maybe AYE as well. Because the loads favour a smaller jet. But the runs along the J curve (SYD, MEL, BNE) have always demanded higher passenger loads. From what is being said once itís back to normal ADL base will be busy enough doing capital city flights alone.
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 04:07
  #2460 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
To ASP and DRW only. Maybe AYE as well. Because the loads favour a smaller jet. But the runs along the J curve (SYD, MEL, BNE) have always demanded higher passenger loads. From what is being said once itís back to normal ADL base will be busy enough doing capital city flights alone.
In their own unique way
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