CNS RWY15 EOSID
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Somewhere in the ether between life and death
Age: 65
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The answer...
Greetings all,
I hope you are all familiar with the terms "Warning", "Caution" and "Note". Failure to observe a "warning" may result in loss of life. In the SID off rwy 15 at YBCS is a warning to not delay the turn beyond DER due high terrain. The DER is 2.6 DME.
In the FMGS the SID is programmed to initiate the turn at 400'. This may not co-incide with the DER!! so watchout. (By the way it was a QF 747, not SQ.) So, to the unfamiliar operator, getting the auto-pilot on "nice and early" after take-off may be your un-doing. I always used to insist this departure is manually flown, at least until the turn is initiated. In the OEI situation, PANS-OPS will guarantee you 15' obstacle clearance - not much I admit, but it's not hitting. As to acceleration and clean-up, anything after the turn will suffice. I flew this departure nearly every day of my 6000 hr Airbus life, and it is challenging, but the key is that early turn.
If you are heavy - yet performance allows a B2 intersection departure - have a really good think about that, and recall the old wisdom about altitude above, fuel in the bowser and runway behind you. In the end it's up to you, I'll be on the train or ship.
'Bye
Ned
I hope you are all familiar with the terms "Warning", "Caution" and "Note". Failure to observe a "warning" may result in loss of life. In the SID off rwy 15 at YBCS is a warning to not delay the turn beyond DER due high terrain. The DER is 2.6 DME.
In the FMGS the SID is programmed to initiate the turn at 400'. This may not co-incide with the DER!! so watchout. (By the way it was a QF 747, not SQ.) So, to the unfamiliar operator, getting the auto-pilot on "nice and early" after take-off may be your un-doing. I always used to insist this departure is manually flown, at least until the turn is initiated. In the OEI situation, PANS-OPS will guarantee you 15' obstacle clearance - not much I admit, but it's not hitting. As to acceleration and clean-up, anything after the turn will suffice. I flew this departure nearly every day of my 6000 hr Airbus life, and it is challenging, but the key is that early turn.
If you are heavy - yet performance allows a B2 intersection departure - have a really good think about that, and recall the old wisdom about altitude above, fuel in the bowser and runway behind you. In the end it's up to you, I'll be on the train or ship.
'Bye
Ned
Moderator
I'm struggling with the concept of a crew having to take off with two completely different plans in their head, depending on what happens between V1 and the DER and then having to decide at the DER to do one or the other
That ought not to present a problem. TO plan is to go to A then to B unless a failure occurs prior to A, in which case we go to A then to C, in lieu of B. However, much easier to have one story to remember in a high workload situation so I'm with you, good sir.
our EOSID policy says where a limiting speed is required to maintain a smaller turn radius maintain the flap setting achieved at the start of the turn
Unless the procedure discloses no requirement for speed control (which would be MOST unusual - other than for nil sig obstacle take offs, ie a positioning procedural turn rather than for obstacle separation), any turn should be considered as speed critical. Flap (sequence) must be prescribed and flown as prescribed to achieve the planned book climb figures. Ergo, there should be no crew discretion required or permitted other than in the case of a further out of left field emergency ... and then you are on your Pat Malone ..
One pegs the flap specified, including the sequence of flap retractions throughout the procedure, and you MUST remain within the prescribed speed band(s) for the procedure. Anything else is a fool's errand. Keep in mind that the speed/radius consideration may be either for rocks on the inside (min speed) OR the outside (max speed) of the turn ...
Unless you have actually designed some of these escapes for tiger country runways (ie you have seen the problems involved in such designs) I would urge considerable reflection and caution. Yes, there are some margins and pads involved .. but, on (frequent) occasion(s), we design with the edge of the splay running up the side of the mountain .. if you move more than planned laterally, it might just be all over bar the shouting and digging of the bodies out of the mud. This is especially the case for close-in turns.
In the OEI situation, PANS-OPS will guarantee you 15' obstacle clearance
Perhaps you might expand on this comment somewhat ?
That ought not to present a problem. TO plan is to go to A then to B unless a failure occurs prior to A, in which case we go to A then to C, in lieu of B. However, much easier to have one story to remember in a high workload situation so I'm with you, good sir.
our EOSID policy says where a limiting speed is required to maintain a smaller turn radius maintain the flap setting achieved at the start of the turn
Unless the procedure discloses no requirement for speed control (which would be MOST unusual - other than for nil sig obstacle take offs, ie a positioning procedural turn rather than for obstacle separation), any turn should be considered as speed critical. Flap (sequence) must be prescribed and flown as prescribed to achieve the planned book climb figures. Ergo, there should be no crew discretion required or permitted other than in the case of a further out of left field emergency ... and then you are on your Pat Malone ..
One pegs the flap specified, including the sequence of flap retractions throughout the procedure, and you MUST remain within the prescribed speed band(s) for the procedure. Anything else is a fool's errand. Keep in mind that the speed/radius consideration may be either for rocks on the inside (min speed) OR the outside (max speed) of the turn ...
Unless you have actually designed some of these escapes for tiger country runways (ie you have seen the problems involved in such designs) I would urge considerable reflection and caution. Yes, there are some margins and pads involved .. but, on (frequent) occasion(s), we design with the edge of the splay running up the side of the mountain .. if you move more than planned laterally, it might just be all over bar the shouting and digging of the bodies out of the mud. This is especially the case for close-in turns.
In the OEI situation, PANS-OPS will guarantee you 15' obstacle clearance
Perhaps you might expand on this comment somewhat ?
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Gold Coast
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In the Real World
Haven't been into CNS for many years but flying down the valley EO was never an option. Blew an engine at rotate off 15 in an A300-B4 and flew the EO published SID procedure. Went well. Still here. Flying it versus simulating it are really two different animals.
didn't a SQ 747 do something similar in the early 90s
Out of interest were the crew oblivious to their impending doom? 5th Sep 2016 14:24
When QF had an Ops section in Cairns they used to provide briefings to US Military pilots operating out of Cairns. After this incident we asked them to specifically brief them on the importance of the SIDs left turn. Don't know who briefs them these days.
