AirAsia A330 vs Jetstar A320
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AirAsia A330 vs Jetstar A320
No prizes for who's at fault here. The said carrier has had multiple near accidents in this country over the last few years yet no sanctions. When will Australia show some leadership in this corner? Ban them...
Busted altitudes into Perth this year...drove an A320 into the water...departed of 16R and went off course...busted altitude into Gold Coast...
To give you an idea, that's the distance of two A330s between both aircraft, incredibly close.
Busted altitudes into Perth this year...drove an A320 into the water...departed of 16R and went off course...busted altitude into Gold Coast...
To give you an idea, that's the distance of two A330s between both aircraft, incredibly close.
Loss of separation involving Airbus A330, 9M-XXS and Airbus A320, VH-VFO near Gold Coast Airport, Qld on 21 July 2016
Investigation number: AO-2016-084
Investigation status: Active
Summary
The flightpaths of the inbound Airbus A320 and the outbound Airbus A330 resulted in a loss of separation. Both aircraft received a traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) [1] resolution advisory (RA), [2] with the crew of the A320 conducting a climb to increase separation.
[1] Traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) is an aircraft collision avoidance system. It monitors the airspace around an aircraft for other aircraft equipped with a corresponding active transponder and gives warning of possible collision risks.
[2] Traffic Collision Avoidance System Resolution Advisory, when an RA is issued pilots are expected to respond immediately to the RA unless doing so would jeopardize the safe operation of the flight.
Investigation number: AO-2016-084
Investigation status: Active
Summary
The flightpaths of the inbound Airbus A320 and the outbound Airbus A330 resulted in a loss of separation. Both aircraft received a traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) [1] resolution advisory (RA), [2] with the crew of the A320 conducting a climb to increase separation.
[1] Traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) is an aircraft collision avoidance system. It monitors the airspace around an aircraft for other aircraft equipped with a corresponding active transponder and gives warning of possible collision risks.
[2] Traffic Collision Avoidance System Resolution Advisory, when an RA is issued pilots are expected to respond immediately to the RA unless doing so would jeopardize the safe operation of the flight.
Last edited by PoppaJo; 29th Jul 2016 at 04:21.
Nunc est bibendum
Is there any evidence the Air Asia crew were not flying their clearance? Was this an ATC error or a crew error? Hard to tell from this report.
I'm more concerned about why it takes 12 months to investigate something like this? It's the 21st century. BASI used to have reports out much more quickly in the pre computer/ email days.
I'm more concerned about why it takes 12 months to investigate something like this? It's the 21st century. BASI used to have reports out much more quickly in the pre computer/ email days.
I'm more concerned about why it takes 12 months to investigate
VH-VFO near Gold Coast Airport, Qld on 21 July 2016
I particularly liked this part...
While these aircraft came closer than normal separation standards there was no risk of collision as the systems and the aircraft crews manoeuvred to avoid any further conflict.
You have answered your own question as to why it takes 12 months Keg. The 21st century requires process, legal certainty and less people to do more work! In the days of BASI there were fewer aircraft, internationals only went to capital city airports, reports were a lot thinner than they are now and the people running the place had operational experience. Unfortunately what we are left with now is an extended time frame for completion and the opportunity to learn the lessons from an incident has long since disappeared.
Quote:
I'm more concerned about why it takes 12 months to investigate
Quote:
VH-VFO near Gold Coast Airport, Qld on 21 July 2016
Do you need some new reading glasses Keg?
I'm more concerned about why it takes 12 months to investigate
Quote:
VH-VFO near Gold Coast Airport, Qld on 21 July 2016
Do you need some new reading glasses Keg?
Quite possible, if so sorry Keg. 
As a general rule ALL of these investigations take too long. Which either means that the resources are not available that are required or it is in everyone's interest to delay the final report and do a "release it on Christmas eve" type trick, favoured by politicians over the years.
As a general rule ALL of these investigations take too long. Which either means that the resources are not available that are required or it is in everyone's interest to delay the final report and do a "release it on Christmas eve" type trick, favoured by politicians over the years.
Webtrak...
From LiveATC:
Jetstar cleared to 5000ft.
AirAsia was advised by the tower of crossing traffic.
AirAsia, on calling Approach (after takeoff) reported passing 2100ft climbing 4000ft.
AirAsia did see the JQ; ATC told them to maintain visual separation.
Note: these are not all the calls that were made.
From LiveATC:
Jetstar cleared to 5000ft.
AirAsia was advised by the tower of crossing traffic.
AirAsia, on calling Approach (after takeoff) reported passing 2100ft climbing 4000ft.
AirAsia did see the JQ; ATC told them to maintain visual separation.
Note: these are not all the calls that were made.
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On face value
to maintain visual separation
Seems unnecessary when positive vertical separation has been established.
Also requires them to have eyes behind them.
Might be more in the other transmissions.
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Quote,Poppajo....No prizes for who's at fault here.
Seems that way doesn't it ?!One holding an altitude,one about to bust one.Correct me if I'm wrong,300ft deviation from assigned altitude constitutes a bust????
Seems that way doesn't it ?!One holding an altitude,one about to bust one.Correct me if I'm wrong,300ft deviation from assigned altitude constitutes a bust????
All accidents begin with a series of unmitigated latent threats which lead to a cultural belief that all is ok. No question we are becoming a little less safe every year, it's now a matter of where, when and to whom it will occur. Banning them will mitigate one very obvious latent threat in my opinion.
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So a loss of separation occurred,it will be investigated,blame apportioned,recommendations tabled and disciplinary action may or may not be required.
But...this armchair discussion just takes up bandwidth and goes on ad nauseam !!
Just give it a rest and wait for the report
But...this armchair discussion just takes up bandwidth and goes on ad nauseam !!
Just give it a rest and wait for the report
No question we are becoming a little less safe every year
Some readers might find amusement in this online reader comment about yesterday's article in the Oz about this incident:
'Last year, before retiring Warren Truss approved an instrument landing system (outdated technology) for Cooly airport. Australian airlines don't need to use ILS because Aussie pilots are trained in how to actually land a plane. ILS's are used by low budget airlines from overseas. Once the ILS is installed, the flight path for landing will be a straight line directly over the Gold Coast, not an approach over the sea (see illustration above). If a tragedy were to occur like the near miss reported, the wreckage would full onto the main residential areas. Which according to the map would be directly over my house in Palm Beach! The local member Steve Ciobo was initially against the idea of an ILS, but now that he has the power to overturn this stupid decision as Minister for Trade, Tourism & Investment has strangely become mute on this issue that effects the whole glitter strip.'
'Last year, before retiring Warren Truss approved an instrument landing system (outdated technology) for Cooly airport. Australian airlines don't need to use ILS because Aussie pilots are trained in how to actually land a plane. ILS's are used by low budget airlines from overseas. Once the ILS is installed, the flight path for landing will be a straight line directly over the Gold Coast, not an approach over the sea (see illustration above). If a tragedy were to occur like the near miss reported, the wreckage would full onto the main residential areas. Which according to the map would be directly over my house in Palm Beach! The local member Steve Ciobo was initially against the idea of an ILS, but now that he has the power to overturn this stupid decision as Minister for Trade, Tourism & Investment has strangely become mute on this issue that effects the whole glitter strip.'
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The huge numbers of Asian middle class who are attaining the wealth that allows them to travel , initially on low cost , will mean carriers like Air Asia are only going to increase over the next 20 years . Then you got the Chinese carriers all ramping up their plans for Australia . Not an option to ban them , Australia is only getting closer to Asia not further away ( 7 cm a year ) so it needs to be managed , putting in an ILS is a good idea in my opinion , planes fly ILS 's nicely . low cost base , huge networks with direct links in the future it's going to be interesting to see how Austrailan carriers respond . Not sure why Aust kids not learning mandarin in schools ?
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From the other thread
As a scale reference, when JS crossed the actual path, the AA was about 1200m down the track. Certainly not 150m as reported.The 'evasive' manoeuvre consisted of climbing 10m...
As a scale reference, when JS crossed the actual path, the AA was about 1200m down the track. Certainly not 150m as reported.The 'evasive' manoeuvre consisted of climbing 10m...
Last edited by underfire; 30th Jul 2016 at 02:59.
From The West, 30 July 16:
Can Altitude Capture be disengaged by using VS in the Airbus?
New AirAsia inquiry after close call
Australia’s crash investigator is inquiring into yet another safety incident involving the AirAsia group after one of its planes came within 152m of a Jetstar flight on the Gold Coast last week.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has three AirAsia investigations under way, including one into an incident in Perth on February 19when the plane flew 300m too low on approach to Perth Airport at night.
In the Gold Coast incident, on July 21, it is alleged by industry sources that the crew of the Air-Asia X flight, which had just taken off from the Gold Coast, did not follow air traffic control instructions , bringing their A330 too close to a Jetstar flight coming into land.
The Jetstar pilots were monitoring their traffic collision avoidance system and avoided the plane.
However, an AirAsia X spokesman told The Weekend West yesterday that its pilots had “followed the flight path according to the heading and altitude provided by the air traffic controller” .
It confirmed its pilots had been warned by the traffic collision avoidance system and responded by reducing the vertical speed.
Australia’s crash investigator is inquiring into yet another safety incident involving the AirAsia group after one of its planes came within 152m of a Jetstar flight on the Gold Coast last week.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has three AirAsia investigations under way, including one into an incident in Perth on February 19when the plane flew 300m too low on approach to Perth Airport at night.
In the Gold Coast incident, on July 21, it is alleged by industry sources that the crew of the Air-Asia X flight, which had just taken off from the Gold Coast, did not follow air traffic control instructions , bringing their A330 too close to a Jetstar flight coming into land.
The Jetstar pilots were monitoring their traffic collision avoidance system and avoided the plane.
However, an AirAsia X spokesman told The Weekend West yesterday that its pilots had “followed the flight path according to the heading and altitude provided by the air traffic controller” .
It confirmed its pilots had been warned by the traffic collision avoidance system and responded by reducing the vertical speed.
Can Altitude Capture be disengaged by using VS in the Airbus?