Reported Jetstar Tailstike at YMML
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Geee Buz, now there's an idea.
Me thinks Ben has got very close sources of info. The daily floggings, abuse and threats have taken a toll on the crew. They have had enough.
A senate inquiry into a particular company which intentionaly climaxed into nothing but a complete farce even when faced with the facts of unsafe, dangerous and corrupt practices says it all. It even left an independant Senator shaking his head on how it all suddenly went pear shaped with a favourable outcome for the guilty.
And to think Tony Fitzgerald had his hands full with corruption in the Queensland Police. At least a few including the commissioner ended up in jail.
Anyway, what was the thread about again??
Me thinks Ben has got very close sources of info. The daily floggings, abuse and threats have taken a toll on the crew. They have had enough.
A senate inquiry into a particular company which intentionaly climaxed into nothing but a complete farce even when faced with the facts of unsafe, dangerous and corrupt practices says it all. It even left an independant Senator shaking his head on how it all suddenly went pear shaped with a favourable outcome for the guilty.
And to think Tony Fitzgerald had his hands full with corruption in the Queensland Police. At least a few including the commissioner ended up in jail.
Anyway, what was the thread about again??
Last edited by Madame Bandit; 17th May 2016 at 00:18.
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Well I never saw any "..daily floggings, abuse & threats..". No, I'm not a manager, I'm a line driver. I've worked at both Qantas & Jetstar (although I've now gone back to Q) & I found Jetstar a great place to work. Admittedly the pay/conditions weren't as rosy as at Q, but it's a LCC, what do you expect? There were a few 'personalities' in management that weren't popular, but never was I encouraged/forced/etc to do the wrong thing. Most of the senior crews had a wealth of experience from many varied carriers, & I found the training excellent. Maybe I was lucky to be based outside of MEL/SYD?
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Madame,
Shock and unexpeded public exposure is the best defence to clean out garbage.
I too have been forwarded the site for perusal. Brilliant stuff and lawyers both sides will have a field day. Maybe best to delete reference to it's construction. Turds are best stepped on without giving them a heads up.
Rat
Shock and unexpeded public exposure is the best defence to clean out garbage.
I too have been forwarded the site for perusal. Brilliant stuff and lawyers both sides will have a field day. Maybe best to delete reference to it's construction. Turds are best stepped on without giving them a heads up.
Rat
I am sorry MB but you don't know what the hell you are on about. I have always found Jetstar to be a pleasant place to work and there are certainly NOT daily floggings and threats from Management. The fact that all of these incidents are public knowledge shows that Jetstar have a very healthy and fully working safety management system that leads to open reporting, that is what Tiger did not have. CASA is not concerned with individual incidents (that is the ATSB), they are concerned with the process in which these are handled. The new management structure has gone a long way to addressing past persecution culture exhibited by some former managers. I wonder whether Ben's close source is not infact one of these former disgruntled managers who were quite rightly shifted on.
Why does Jetstars existence bother you so much? You and Ben seem to have a very bitter streak when it comes to Jetstar. I am genuinely interested in the source of your hatred as it seems to be all consuming!
I am also sure that for all the thousands of people who are employed by Jetstar can I just thank you and Ben for wishing the company I work for such misfortune without any second thought as to the havoc it would cause personally if trolls like you got your wish and had Jetstar shutdown based on the ranting a of internet trolls and bitter people.
Why does Jetstars existence bother you so much? You and Ben seem to have a very bitter streak when it comes to Jetstar. I am genuinely interested in the source of your hatred as it seems to be all consuming!
I am also sure that for all the thousands of people who are employed by Jetstar can I just thank you and Ben for wishing the company I work for such misfortune without any second thought as to the havoc it would cause personally if trolls like you got your wish and had Jetstar shutdown based on the ranting a of internet trolls and bitter people.
Last edited by Ollie Onion; 16th May 2016 at 01:37. Reason: Add
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Just a question? Is it acceptable after a tail strike on takeoff to report a possible bird strike, probably to encourage a runway inspection without telling atc
About the tail strike..?
About the tail strike..?
I have no idea if that is what happened but my thoughts are:
Were there birds?
Did the crew suspect a bird strike?
Did the crew suspect a tail-strike?
I would suggest that as this was not an immediate return maybe he crew had no idea about the tail-strike. Maybe they found out a bit later via a passenger or witness report?
As I said above, the elements of the actual incident don't concern CASA, what is important in their mind is that:
- The event is reported to the company. (Shows an open reporting culture)
- Once received, the report is escalated and mandatory reporting requirements are met such as the ATSB, CASA won't be involved at this stage.
- An investigation is carried out either internally or externally (or both) so that root causes are identified and can be remedied via new procedures or crew training.
Picking apart the crew actions in detail without all of the information is both unhelpful and unprofessional. Just wait for the report.
Were there birds?
Did the crew suspect a bird strike?
Did the crew suspect a tail-strike?
I would suggest that as this was not an immediate return maybe he crew had no idea about the tail-strike. Maybe they found out a bit later via a passenger or witness report?
As I said above, the elements of the actual incident don't concern CASA, what is important in their mind is that:
- The event is reported to the company. (Shows an open reporting culture)
- Once received, the report is escalated and mandatory reporting requirements are met such as the ATSB, CASA won't be involved at this stage.
- An investigation is carried out either internally or externally (or both) so that root causes are identified and can be remedied via new procedures or crew training.
Picking apart the crew actions in detail without all of the information is both unhelpful and unprofessional. Just wait for the report.
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Well Ollie, I'm afraid you're wrong. You seem to have an issue with reading something and comprehending the content.
No they don't have a healthy safety system at all. But no doubt the 40 odd folk I know there, are obviously wrong and you are right.
Incorrect again Ollie, in fact I believe it has got worse. The "former" managers are still there ol mate. Particular MFO's and FDM's come to mind. Why are they still there Ollie?
It doesn't sweetie. I have some very good and close friends there. Many have an issue with existent management. Again, read and comprehend my previous post.
Such a statement is completely absurd and ludicrous. Nothing was alluded to in regards to wanting professionals losing their jobs or a company being closed down. Maybe a few weeks off and a long chat with a discreet colleague may assist. The 4 sector days with 25min turn arounds, no support, no tools to do your job efficiently and back of the clock to daytime and return to back of the clock appears to be taking it’s toll.
Oh and in closing Ollie, if all is so well in paradise, can you please explain why 17 new cadets have applied to ANZ. Can you explain why 2 middle east carriers in the last 8 months have received a total of 38 applications from a certain low cost carrier. The mob that I’m with in Europe have recently received 11 from B787 drivers. Alas, 9 of them have not got a JAR licence, so no go unfortunately.
Now that Ollie to me adds up to 66 drivers looking elsewhere in less than 10 months. Oh yes of cause Ollie, that’s just normal “attrition” rates.
I'm glad you're happy in paradise ol chap.
Now, as I said. What's the thread about again?
No they don't have a healthy safety system at all. But no doubt the 40 odd folk I know there, are obviously wrong and you are right.
The new management structure has gone a long way to addressing past persecution culture exhibited by some former managers.
Why does Jetstars existence bother you so much?
I just thank you and Ben for wishing the company I work for such misfortune without any second thought as to the havoc it would cause personally
Oh and in closing Ollie, if all is so well in paradise, can you please explain why 17 new cadets have applied to ANZ. Can you explain why 2 middle east carriers in the last 8 months have received a total of 38 applications from a certain low cost carrier. The mob that I’m with in Europe have recently received 11 from B787 drivers. Alas, 9 of them have not got a JAR licence, so no go unfortunately.
Now that Ollie to me adds up to 66 drivers looking elsewhere in less than 10 months. Oh yes of cause Ollie, that’s just normal “attrition” rates.
I'm glad you're happy in paradise ol chap.
Now, as I said. What's the thread about again?
25 min turns haven't been done for at least two years that I know of....
Madam, sounds like you are a clown. There's a new suit waiting for you in Qantas, complete with a hat. There's plenty of mirrors too.
Madam, sounds like you are a clown. There's a new suit waiting for you in Qantas, complete with a hat. There's plenty of mirrors too.
And to think Tony Fitzgerald had his hands full with corruption in the Queensland Police. At least a few including the commissioner ended up in jail.
If there are lots of people leaving Jetstar that's fantastic because John Gissing once said that the only way the money improves is when people start leaving. Looks like the pilots that are left will soon be getting a pay rise.
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This is absolutely awesome,better than discussing tail strikes anyday.For those of us that are on the "outside" looking "inside",then the grass is not greener on the other side at all!!!
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Ouch Goblin…….Meow, scratch scratch. Typical management type response with anger. Best way to look inadequate when faced with facts is start name calling. You have done very well.
Oh, you also need to get over your QF issues honey. I believe most at QF are very proud of their new uniform. To state an inference that they are clowns constantly looking in mirrors is very unbecoming.
However, the aroma of fear from yourself and other ingratiating supporters that a time of reckoning and it’s consequences is just around the corner, permeates the room.
For Smash and Looky
“Any system that values profit over human life is a very dangerous one indeed. Simply put, it lacks values, and such a system will eventually collapse once its true light is discovered by the masses. Though some say that capitalism is a modern system, corruption has been the source for the demise of every great civilization.”
― Suzy Kassem
Oh, you also need to get over your QF issues honey. I believe most at QF are very proud of their new uniform. To state an inference that they are clowns constantly looking in mirrors is very unbecoming.
However, the aroma of fear from yourself and other ingratiating supporters that a time of reckoning and it’s consequences is just around the corner, permeates the room.
For Smash and Looky
“Any system that values profit over human life is a very dangerous one indeed. Simply put, it lacks values, and such a system will eventually collapse once its true light is discovered by the masses. Though some say that capitalism is a modern system, corruption has been the source for the demise of every great civilization.”
― Suzy Kassem
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Actually I hear the rate of tail strikes on A320 is much higher than the 321. Particularly as A320 operators mostly use Conf 1 for take off, as opposed to Conf 2 generally used on te 321.
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I may have missed some corrections along the way but based on the first few posts (R27 and TAF), an FO on their first line flight doing the takeoff with up to 25kts across?? Interesting to know what the actual wind was on takeoff. (Please don't quote the METAR)
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Cafe city ,I'm with you on that(if that's the case).I been in this very situation with new,low time,low experience,F/O,s on the Airbus.Some of the carriers have had SOPs in place(must be less than 15kts/x/wind)others it has been at Captains discretion.Those of us that fly the bus are fully aware of the landing x/wind dilemmas,associated with control,pitch limitations(the automated bus call out for pitch)etc,the same goes for the take off.Airbus in its FCOM procedures stipulate the technique(s)to be used,but as with anything associated with airplanes(tail draggers,floats etc) one must learn and feel the techniques.Some are easier to Cock up than others.
As to which A/C has the most tail strikes,I don't have the numbers,but would agree I've seen more 321,s take the bullet,than 320,s,( never had issues on the A330)and the reasons are kind of obvious,very easy to get the "pitch pitch" call on the 321 on landing especially in gusty conditions.When these aircraft are light for takeoff(and maybe this one was) green dot is low,pitch rotation on the bus cann be very quick,and the ability to over- rotate is easy,hence, a heavy weight takeoff, green dot, 235+,she becomes a bit of a pig to get off the runway.Needless to say,someone with limited experience can easily kiss terra ferma.Feel bad for the bloke,this type of incident happens very quickly,none of us are immune.
MB....not really interested in the spat your dealing with,actually fun to read,....but will you call me "honey",I feel kinda left out
As to which A/C has the most tail strikes,I don't have the numbers,but would agree I've seen more 321,s take the bullet,than 320,s,( never had issues on the A330)and the reasons are kind of obvious,very easy to get the "pitch pitch" call on the 321 on landing especially in gusty conditions.When these aircraft are light for takeoff(and maybe this one was) green dot is low,pitch rotation on the bus cann be very quick,and the ability to over- rotate is easy,hence, a heavy weight takeoff, green dot, 235+,she becomes a bit of a pig to get off the runway.Needless to say,someone with limited experience can easily kiss terra ferma.Feel bad for the bloke,this type of incident happens very quickly,none of us are immune.
MB....not really interested in the spat your dealing with,actually fun to read,....but will you call me "honey",I feel kinda left out
Last edited by Pakehaboy; 16th May 2016 at 18:08.
Hoop dreams, to get anywhere need the 11 degrees required for a strike with the oleos compressed, you're working pretty hard.
That would look rather scary. She's pretty spritely to leap into the air if you pull back aggressively on the stick. Tail strikes are almost a non issue in the 320 and something I personally would never give a second thought too. The 321 it's always in the back of your mind.
Madam bandit, there are no facts. You're just pissing into the wind and wondering why you're shoes are wet. It's embarassing.
That would look rather scary. She's pretty spritely to leap into the air if you pull back aggressively on the stick. Tail strikes are almost a non issue in the 320 and something I personally would never give a second thought too. The 321 it's always in the back of your mind.
Madam bandit, there are no facts. You're just pissing into the wind and wondering why you're shoes are wet. It's embarassing.
Last edited by The Green Goblin; 17th May 2016 at 01:03.
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QuoteGG. "The 321 it's always in the back of your mind. "
Yeah mate,it is,.Its become that apparent ,that they now placard it(in some airlines),that in itself has to tell you something ....no?
Yeah mate,it is,.Its become that apparent ,that they now placard it(in some airlines),that in itself has to tell you something ....no?
Nunc est bibendum
Goblin, most of the time you do a great job but every now and then you allow that chip on your shoulder to show its colours. It detracts from your otherwise good contributions. 
Madame Bandit,
You say you have a group of 40 sources inside the airline who forward you photo's of tech logs, MEL's etc..... WHY? Would your sources not be better to send this sort of stuff or concerns to the regulator. I would ask again, what is your interest in it, I for one don't give a toss what goes on in my mates airlines and certainly wouldn't think it appropriate to receive that sort of information.
You seem to have detailed info on applications made to other airlines and you assume that this equates to 66 individuals who want to leave, how do you know it is not 15 pilots who have applied to all three with a few other chucked in. Do you seriously need an explanation as to why a young cadet with a couple of thousand Airbus hours would jump at the chance to leave a LCC not only work for their National airline and enter as a Direct Entry A320 FO.
I think the advise you need to give you sources is that they need to put in applications elsewhere as they are clearly not happy at Jetstar, they could do everyone a favour and go elsewhere. I spent over a decade flying in the Northern Hemisphere for a Legacy carrier and can honestly say that as with all airlines Jetstar has its issues but they are more than acceptable in order for me to have a job at home, not once have I ever felt threatened as you say Jetstar pilots are, maybe I have been lucky, maybe you are talking s$&t who would know.
Also, if you keep calling me sweetie or honey I am going to feel like I need to buy you a drink or something. :-)
You say you have a group of 40 sources inside the airline who forward you photo's of tech logs, MEL's etc..... WHY? Would your sources not be better to send this sort of stuff or concerns to the regulator. I would ask again, what is your interest in it, I for one don't give a toss what goes on in my mates airlines and certainly wouldn't think it appropriate to receive that sort of information.
You seem to have detailed info on applications made to other airlines and you assume that this equates to 66 individuals who want to leave, how do you know it is not 15 pilots who have applied to all three with a few other chucked in. Do you seriously need an explanation as to why a young cadet with a couple of thousand Airbus hours would jump at the chance to leave a LCC not only work for their National airline and enter as a Direct Entry A320 FO.
I think the advise you need to give you sources is that they need to put in applications elsewhere as they are clearly not happy at Jetstar, they could do everyone a favour and go elsewhere. I spent over a decade flying in the Northern Hemisphere for a Legacy carrier and can honestly say that as with all airlines Jetstar has its issues but they are more than acceptable in order for me to have a job at home, not once have I ever felt threatened as you say Jetstar pilots are, maybe I have been lucky, maybe you are talking s$&t who would know.
Also, if you keep calling me sweetie or honey I am going to feel like I need to buy you a drink or something. :-)
Last edited by Ollie Onion; 17th May 2016 at 01:53. Reason: Add
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Mgt loves to f@rk with pilots ,because pilots,in general, are emotional,emotional about most things,and emotions have no place in bargaining ....I personally learned that many years ago as a union rep...
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Some Australian news quoted an aviation expert - Ben Sandilands.
Jetstar safety culture and record a concern: expert | The New Daily
Since when is he an aviation expert? With all due respect to Ben, doesn't he just writes about aviation but making it sound like he knows how to run Qantas, thinks Virgin is always right and Qantas or Jetstar is always wrong, and knows how to run the country's safety regulator CASA, all from his keyboard.
Jetstar safety culture and record a concern: expert | The New Daily
Since when is he an aviation expert? With all due respect to Ben, doesn't he just writes about aviation but making it sound like he knows how to run Qantas, thinks Virgin is always right and Qantas or Jetstar is always wrong, and knows how to run the country's safety regulator CASA, all from his keyboard.