Jetstar Aus/NZ Positions
Yeh, these self centered assholes, can you believe they don't just rot in GA on foodstamps so that you can buy a second boat? The nerve!
At least with current provisions and seniority a pilot workforce can at least maintain some sort of stability as pilots progress and those at the top who have given time to negotiate those conditions can continue to enjoy them while the newcomers agree to work on less, for whatever reason they see fit. I mean I see the problem straight away when you say those in the top seniority are lazy, no they are not they are reaping the rewards they fought for.
And you do see the issue that the next guy is going to offer to do your job for less, there will be no EBA they will just offer contracts, like most other professional jobs. Airlines can already hire into command positions if they are short on EBA requirements outside of seniority if there are no internals to do it. Good luck negotiating contracts when you have no idea what the other pilots are offering. Hmm you turn up to job interview, see what is on offer, oh that's crud, well that's because several pilots with more jet experience than you have applied, they are willing to work for half your contract cause its more than they get paid at X airline, but want to live in Australia. Then you will see airline wages collapse in Australia
I mean you could probably apply to Rex or Link and get a DEC on the SAAB right now, promoted to trainer/checker in short time and so on as the regional are so short. But no, the truth is most want seniority gone so that they can undercut the upper echelons to fast track to the jet LH seat. Its still the same mentality of the entry level. Any outfit that respecst skill and experience will hire you into the position they need you for. Airlines dont' need super pilots, they just need ok seat warmers so vast experience will not grant you some sort of huge wage increase, only negotiation of the entire group.
Yeh, these self centered assholes, can you believe they don't just rot in GA on foodstamps so that you can buy a second boat? The nerve!
I don't give a rat **** about the LH seat of a jet. I'd fly a 172 if the pay and career options were good enough. I want seniority gone so I can actually market my labor, no different to how any professional/executive progresses their career. Instead, I'm locked into one company for my career and have to effectively take what I'm given, with very little control.
Why does the removal of seniority also remove EBAs?
To you perhaps. Without seniority, if another airline is offering a better package, I can apply and transition into the same role in the new entity, on that better pay immediately. With seniority, I go from my current role and rank, to the lowest position and pay at the new entity, which is almost certainly going to be lower, not higher than what I make now. In nearly every airline in the country, people stay put once they're in. The movement between the companies is extremely low, because of precisely this reason. As a result, the management know that you're never going to leave, so they can feed you a **** sandwich and you're gonna take it, because ultimate its more than you'd make if you started again somewhere else, for years. Maybe ever.
Again it shows a self centered attitude that you don't care about these consequences, or the people you will work with, that in essence is why Australian Aviation conditions have declined so much.
Seniority is a con, people put up with being treated like crap in the hope that in the future you will be ‘senior’ and reap the benefits. Take the Covid debacle at Air NZ, the airline was hamstrung by seniority, they had to pay unproductive assets to sit on the sidelines whilst making those they needed the most redundant. The guys on the right side of the deal would say. ‘My seniority should protect me!’. In a true market an Airline should be able to advertise for Captains, Checkies etc externally much like big corporations can advertise for the skills required, Seniority just means that once you reach a certain level you are ‘stuck’ and the airlines know it.
And this is the self centered attitude I'm talking about, in a country where you could go dig a hole for $100k a year, you persist at a sub conditions job just because YOU want to. That degrades the conditions for all, if youa re not making it in aviation do something else for a few years, make some money, don't take substandard conditions just because you will do anything to fly a plane.
"Again it shows a self centered attitude"
What on earth is more self centered than that?!
Pathetic.
There is no seniority in GA that I'm aware of, so market your skills all you want, no one is going to pay you more than the next guy for the jobs out there. I spent a lot of time in GA and ended up being paid an ok salary for GA work, but it involved working a lot harder than an airline FO so I moved on, a few places did ask how much it would take to make me stay, and I told them honestly what I was worth and they just said no, or offered a couple of grand more which was nowhere near enough, so I moved on.
Depends on the role, you are only talking about line positions, just about any other role in airlines you can apply for and get in outside of seniority. In any case if you start hiring over the top of qualified FO/Captains you remove job security and more than likely you will get your paid position but be resented by those under you that you displaced by rank and possibly even baseings. If you like to be paid more but hated by those you fly with go for it, I've seen it happen it's not pretty. It's even happening now in some companies where FO's are almost Cpt ready but are hired over the top of because they are not ready right now, it's not pretty.
You are arguing seniority doesn't work on a thread about jetstar, possibly the lowest paid to living costs operator in the world, who still get thousands of applicants and probably hire the most pilots in Australia. What does that say? If pilots had a choice they would still be stabbing each other in the back to climb the next rung.
I don't know what deluded economy you live in but what pilot is going to leave QF for VA or J* and move backwards to allow you to have a go at QF. And no one at QF is going to vote down seniority in our lifetime so I have no idea what your argument is. All that will happen is VA/Rex/J* pilots will jump around the lower end jobs and the top guys that have been there for ages will still be there. If the EBA is based on time in service you will be paid less as its time in position that pays more not seniority number, airlines would love this as you'd have a constant conga of guys jumping between airlines onto 1 year pay levels when they could have stuck around on 10 year pay. That alone means you have no idea how airline pay scales work. Tiger went without seniority for a while and you just end up with wild accusations of favoritism and boys clubs. You really have not worked in the real world to see what happens without a progression based system. All that happens is the top boys surround themselves with buddies and you have to lick arse to get anywhere. You still end up with hopeless candidates as they are based on friendships rather than time in service.
You can jump around in GA to other operators, but they all pay ****e relative to the work you do. I assume that's why you want to get into an airline otherwise who cares. If the free market worked so well in GA why is it still paying so poorly?
The only way you improve conditions is through unity, GA lacks this completely, so languishes in award land. Airline pilots have unions that set up what they want, or should, and only being united as a group will you get advancement.
PS I worked at an airline not long ago where they tried to make life hard for the 10+ year pilots so they would leave, as they wanted to keep the average pay scale of the pilot group below 5 years so they could save on crew costs. This is how airline management thinks, so all that experience and knowledge means nothing to them if it costs more, the more you do the job the more you figure that out. So how would you be marketing your skills when no airline wants skills, just pilots?
I don't know what deluded economy you live in but what pilot is going to leave QF for VA or J* and move backwards to allow you to have a go at QF. And no one at QF is going to vote down seniority in our lifetime so I have no idea what your argument is. All that will happen is VA/Rex/J* pilots will jump around the lower end jobs and the top guys that have been there for ages will still be there. If the EBA is based on time in service you will be paid less as its time in position that pays more not seniority number, airlines would love this as you'd have a constant conga of guys jumping between airlines onto 1 year pay levels when they could have stuck around on 10 year pay. That alone means you have no idea how airline pay scales work. Tiger went without seniority for a while and you just end up with wild accusations of favoritism and boys clubs. You really have not worked in the real world to see what happens without a progression based system. All that happens is the top boys surround themselves with buddies and you have to lick arse to get anywhere. You still end up with hopeless candidates as they are based on friendships rather than time in service.
You can jump around in GA to other operators, but they all pay ****e relative to the work you do. I assume that's why you want to get into an airline otherwise who cares. If the free market worked so well in GA why is it still paying so poorly?
The only way you improve conditions is through unity, GA lacks this completely, so languishes in award land. Airline pilots have unions that set up what they want, or should, and only being united as a group will you get advancement.
PS I worked at an airline not long ago where they tried to make life hard for the 10+ year pilots so they would leave, as they wanted to keep the average pay scale of the pilot group below 5 years so they could save on crew costs. This is how airline management thinks, so all that experience and knowledge means nothing to them if it costs more, the more you do the job the more you figure that out. So how would you be marketing your skills when no airline wants skills, just pilots?
Last edited by 43Inches; 9th Oct 2022 at 00:57.
Some seem to forget…
…. that ‘seniority’ is still underpinned by pilots who pass their simulators, retain a valid medical & thus have a licence to fly. True arrogance is shown by an assumption that you’re so much better than your peers that they’re holding you back from your true potential.
If pilots had the freedom to move between entities (you know, like pretty much any other profession or executive), then its one more tool available in the bag to improve their wage by moving to the most competitive offer. Just as I said effectively did in GA.
If the EBA is based on time in service you will be paid less as its time in position that pays more not seniority number, airlines would love this as you'd have a constant conga of guys jumping between airlines onto 1 year pay levels when they could have stuck around on 10 year pay.
Congratulations, you're arguing my point for me now.
Tiger went without seniority for a while and you just end up with wild accusations of favoritism and boys clubs. You really have not worked in the real world to see what happens without a progression based system. All that happens is the top boys surround themselves with buddies and you have to lick arse to get anywhere. You still end up with hopeless candidates as they are based on friendships rather than time in service.
So whats next mate, going to picket flying schools and abuse every 19 year old who walks in for risking your 300k pay packet? I do hope in the cruise you turn to your young FO and explain to them how disgusting you believe their self entitlement is, that they're sitting here living their dream instead giving the whole thing up to dig a hole somewhere so that you can buy a second boat. You poor bugger, you probably haven't even cracked 2 million in super yet either.
Maybe setup a gofundme and hand the link to all the new FO's? Its only fair.
So? If a J* FO moves to VA as an FO because the pay is better, the prevalence of 'top guys' is irrelevant.
Then you have issues such as how to organise baseings, leave allocation and so on. Good luck sorting those issues out without seniority.
Nothing you have put forward at all makes any argument against seniority. It just confirms you have never worked in a large company where you have been trapped in the lower echelons due to cronyism. Which I have seen directly in GA and in Airlines. Seniority ensures the good and the bad get a go all equally, if they don't measure up they don't progress. Get rid of the ticket system and the airline dictates who progresses and who doesn't, we know where that ends regard to conditions.
So whats next mate, going to picket flying schools and abuse every 19 year old who walks in for risking your 300k pay packet? I do hope in the cruise you turn to your young FO and explain to them how disgusting you believe their self entitlement is, that they're sitting here living their dream instead giving the whole thing up to dig a hole somewhere so that you can buy a second boat. You poor bugger, you probably haven't even cracked 2 million in super yet either.
As for picketing schools, no that's stupid, its still choice if you want pilot qualifications, but the truth needs to be told to those training what the early part of the industry is like. Although in the Maritime world there are limited spaces to train and you need some form of recommendation to start off, Australian based shipping Captains are paid more than airline Captains as a result. Mate was recently paid $100k to ferry a tug to Singapore, couple of weeks work, back to early retirement.
Last edited by 43Inches; 9th Oct 2022 at 04:16.
Here's the awful truth in the aviation world, all the companies have a tap setting for workforce. They do not want most of their pilots to stick around, this is a nightmare for them in a industrial relations setting. Most operations work on a core 30% strategy where they look after a few key pilots that actually manage things, the rest they are happy to walk when they've had enough. The tap is adjusted to what the training department can handle, not to stop pilots leaving.
When you make pilots too comfortable they start to stick together as a group (unity) become friends and agree on mutually beneficial goals. That then leads to the pilot group holding the company to task, on conditions and wages. Only the very top airlines would care about retention in the long run, the rest of the industry sets itself up as feeders for the next rung knowing that pilots would rather jump than fight to improve conditions at their current station.
Setting up a situation where pilots can move freely between airlines would be a godsend for the airlines, GA already enjoys this, not a great deal for pilots...
The current shortage of experienced pilots has thrown a spanner in what has been around for a long time. However I see no shortage until the airlines are paying for cadets to join from scratch, as what happens in Asia. Terms will then crash as they will have you by the balls with a huge training debt and good luck to moving without putting a financial noose around your neck. Jobs for direct entries will be only for the top end experienced captains, as with what happens now, once the cadets start getting their commands en masse then even those jobs will dry up. And there's nothing you can do to stop that, it would be quite within the companies rights to train their own at their cost and pay less or bond them for a lot.
The other thing to consider is that in the next 10 years you are probably looking at 20 thousand cadets in China coming off bond, most probably with significant large jet time including command. Good chance some of those guys will want to move to Australia for a different lifestyle given the opportunity.
When you make pilots too comfortable they start to stick together as a group (unity) become friends and agree on mutually beneficial goals. That then leads to the pilot group holding the company to task, on conditions and wages. Only the very top airlines would care about retention in the long run, the rest of the industry sets itself up as feeders for the next rung knowing that pilots would rather jump than fight to improve conditions at their current station.
Setting up a situation where pilots can move freely between airlines would be a godsend for the airlines, GA already enjoys this, not a great deal for pilots...
The current shortage of experienced pilots has thrown a spanner in what has been around for a long time. However I see no shortage until the airlines are paying for cadets to join from scratch, as what happens in Asia. Terms will then crash as they will have you by the balls with a huge training debt and good luck to moving without putting a financial noose around your neck. Jobs for direct entries will be only for the top end experienced captains, as with what happens now, once the cadets start getting their commands en masse then even those jobs will dry up. And there's nothing you can do to stop that, it would be quite within the companies rights to train their own at their cost and pay less or bond them for a lot.
The other thing to consider is that in the next 10 years you are probably looking at 20 thousand cadets in China coming off bond, most probably with significant large jet time including command. Good chance some of those guys will want to move to Australia for a different lifestyle given the opportunity.
Last edited by 43Inches; 9th Oct 2022 at 05:15.
Nothing you have put forward at all makes any argument against seniority. It just confirms you have never worked in a large company where you have been trapped in the lower echelons due to cronyism. Which I have seen directly in GA and in Airlines. Seniority ensures the good and the bad get a go all equally, if they don't measure up they don't progress. Get rid of the ticket system and the airline dictates who progresses and who doesn't, we know where that ends regard to conditions.
I love that you think seniority is somehow protection against cronyism or nepotism. Just shows you have absolutely zero understanding of JQ and its makeup.
As for picketing schools, no that's stupid, its still choice if you want pilot qualifications, but the truth needs to be told to those training what the early part of the industry is like. Although in the Maritime world there are limited spaces to train and you need some form of recommendation to start off, Australian based shipping Captains are paid more than airline Captains as a result. Mate was recently paid $100k to ferry a tug to Singapore, couple of weeks work, back to early retirement.
"And this is the self centered attitude I'm talking about, in a country where you could go dig a hole for $100k a year, you persist at a sub conditions job just because YOU want to. That degrades the conditions for all"
So, let me understand you; You're happy for people to spend 100 grand learning to fly, but they must quit immediately after so as to not endanger your super?
Explain it to me. When precisely is a young person allowed to apply for Jetstar so that they don't receive your condemnation of their 'self centered' attitudes?
This will be good.
Network manages. Jetconnect manages.
I love that you think seniority is somehow protection against cronyism or nepotism. Just shows you have absolutely zero understanding of JQ and its makeup.
No, you clearly said that people applying to JQ and other airlines should literally give up their careers to go dig holes.
"And this is the self centered attitude I'm talking about, in a country where you could go dig a hole for $100k a year, you persist at a sub conditions job just because YOU want to. That degrades the conditions for all"
So, let me understand you; You're happy for people to spend 100 grand learning to fly, but they must quit immediately after so as to not endanger your super?
Explain it to me. When precisely is a young person allowed to apply for Jetstar so that they don't receive your condemnation of their 'self centered' attitudes?
This will be good.
"And this is the self centered attitude I'm talking about, in a country where you could go dig a hole for $100k a year, you persist at a sub conditions job just because YOU want to. That degrades the conditions for all"
So, let me understand you; You're happy for people to spend 100 grand learning to fly, but they must quit immediately after so as to not endanger your super?
Explain it to me. When precisely is a young person allowed to apply for Jetstar so that they don't receive your condemnation of their 'self centered' attitudes?
This will be good.
However that being said no one has to work in Aviation in Australia, so remember that whenever you whinge. No one is forced to be a pilot, you choose this path, this is essentially the self centered idea. If you want to choose a job that is highly competitive with established structures that don't work for you, don't complain when you are stuck in a rut you created for yourself. No one else put you where you are, only by gathering support from your peers and working together can you change things.
According to you, the FO has no right to be there. Make up your mind.
They pay so low they hardly rate above GA, what is the point again? In fact looking at the numbers JC and Network only pay slightly more than a Rex SAAB pilot. So it looks like a SAAB pilot on a seniority system is way better off than a jet pilot without when you compare size of aircraft and especially with NZD vs AUD conversions.
"you are only talking about line positions, just about any other role in airlines you can apply for and get in outside of seniority."
So, now you're arguing that the seniority system DOESN'T exist in Australia? Make up your mind.
Ah the backpedaling accelerates. Love it.
I literally quoted what you said. I'll throw you another quote of what you said
"Still a steady stream of takers, that's the sad part. If the individual can't even control their urges to fly a jet at any cost what hope have you of a concerted effort to negotiate better. "
That is you, blaming new hires for being unable to negotiate higher pay. You are telling people to rot in GA, or quit the industry all together in order to protect YOUR pay. And you've made the point repeatedly. YOUR WORDS.
However that being said no one has to work in Aviation in Australia, so remember that whenever you whinge. No one is forced to be a pilot, you choose this path, this is essentially the self centered idea. If you want to choose a job that is highly competitive with established structures that don't work for you, don't complain when you are stuck in a rut you created for yourself. No one else put you where you are, only by gathering support from your peers and working together can you change things.
Spoiler
Strawman. You wrote that you can't organize basing and annual leave without seniority. Fact check, some airlines do.
You really are all over the place in this thread.
"you are only talking about line positions, just about any other role in airlines you can apply for and get in outside of seniority."
So, now you're arguing that the seniority system DOESN'T exist in Australia? Make up your mind.
"you are only talking about line positions, just about any other role in airlines you can apply for and get in outside of seniority."
So, now you're arguing that the seniority system DOESN'T exist in Australia? Make up your mind.
Ah the backpedaling accelerates. Love it.
I literally quoted what you said. I'll throw you another quote of what you said
"Still a steady stream of takers, that's the sad part. If the individual can't even control their urges to fly a jet at any cost what hope have you of a concerted effort to negotiate better. "
That is you, blaming new hires for being unable to negotiate higher pay. You are telling people to rot in GA, or quit the industry all together in order to protect YOUR pay. And you've made the point repeatedly. YOUR WORDS.
I literally quoted what you said. I'll throw you another quote of what you said
"Still a steady stream of takers, that's the sad part. If the individual can't even control their urges to fly a jet at any cost what hope have you of a concerted effort to negotiate better. "
That is you, blaming new hires for being unable to negotiate higher pay. You are telling people to rot in GA, or quit the industry all together in order to protect YOUR pay. And you've made the point repeatedly. YOUR WORDS.
You "Then you have issues such as how to organise baseings, leave allocation and so on. Good luck sorting those issues out without seniority"
You are claiming the 'baseings' and leave can't be sorted without seniority. Its there, in black and white.
I then pointed out to you, that other airlines have done exactly that. They have worked out those things, without seniority. So you spear off on a rant about general conditions overall, which was NOT the point you started off with. Do you understand what a strawman argument is?
Yep and that is the crux, never said they are not entitled to the job, just by taking a job at lower conditions you are affecting the negotiations of those established within a company. Think of the overseas examples of A,B,C whatever scale at Cathay etc... poor guys at the bottom will never be on even close to those that went before, because they accepted those conditions. If you don't accept it, the company is forced to up the conditions.
"J* and VA got away with pay for your own endorsements because of pilots who wanted to fly jets no matter what. Seriously you had other choices. These same pilots who only think of themselves"
When I asked you what these 'other choices' were, you stated that these young pilots should give up their careers and go 'dig holes'.
I'm done with this debate, its a waste of time.
If you ever sit next to a young FO and then lecture them about how 'self centered' they were for joining your airline, which in your view risks your super, you're an absolute ******. Don't like the increase of supply of pilots and the resulting downward pressure on pilot wages? Nobody is holding a gun to your head.
Go dig holes.
I'm done here.
You still have not proven anything that seniority is a bad thing.
The problem is still those willing to accept substandard conditions just to fly planes, even more so to fly a jet. If you can't see the forest for the trees you will never be able to group up and get anywhere. Why are pilots starving in GA? Because they chose to, and in one day they can change that and do another job. If you don't understand that is purely a self centered ideal you are lost. The same push to become a pilot at all costs then means they take that ideal all the way through their career, this ruins it for pilots who want to just fly GA or regional turboprops as the operators continually have a stream of cheap labor "doing it for the love" or doing it "for the hours". Again if you don't understand this fundamental issue in Australian aviation then you are arguing at clouds. If pilots didn't use companies as experience building rungs and treated them as real jobs then they all would pay proper salaries. Oh, I'll work as an instructor to build hours, I've nop people skills and bugger all teaching knowledge but hey, I'll do it for next to free to get those hours....
Why when I'm earning $300K+ and just about to buy another boat. I'd rather spell out what the real issue is to the newcomers rather than just retire in peace.
And this just really showed your self centered cold heart right there, so you are saying you wish downward pressure on our conditions? Nobody is holding a gun to my head as I've almost finished my career and have amassed the finances I need, my advice is trying to help the next gen achieve the same, it's not that hard. Again if you really wanted to change conditions you would work together as a group, both new and retiring to come to mutual agreements. The biggest thing you could do is push nationally for a limit to pilot CPLs issued each year on an industry advised level. Soon the path into airlines will almost purely via cadetships and whats left of GA will want to be there and conditions will improve, that will be past my tenure sadly.
I'll end with this, any increase or decrease in conditions will affect me very little, I'll be retired in the next 5-10 years max. So whether you want more or less is a decision you have to make, I'll vote for anything that makes life better for the next generation. But the next generation has to face reality and not want everything now at the cost the company wants. You build up conditions over years, you can smash them down overnight.
The problem is still those willing to accept substandard conditions just to fly planes, even more so to fly a jet. If you can't see the forest for the trees you will never be able to group up and get anywhere. Why are pilots starving in GA? Because they chose to, and in one day they can change that and do another job. If you don't understand that is purely a self centered ideal you are lost. The same push to become a pilot at all costs then means they take that ideal all the way through their career, this ruins it for pilots who want to just fly GA or regional turboprops as the operators continually have a stream of cheap labor "doing it for the love" or doing it "for the hours". Again if you don't understand this fundamental issue in Australian aviation then you are arguing at clouds. If pilots didn't use companies as experience building rungs and treated them as real jobs then they all would pay proper salaries. Oh, I'll work as an instructor to build hours, I've nop people skills and bugger all teaching knowledge but hey, I'll do it for next to free to get those hours....
Go dig holes.
If you ever sit next to a young FO and then lecture them about how 'self centered' they were for joining your airline, which in your view risks your super, you're an absolute ******. Don't like the increase of supply of pilots and the resulting downward pressure on pilot wages? Nobody is holding a gun to your head.
I'll end with this, any increase or decrease in conditions will affect me very little, I'll be retired in the next 5-10 years max. So whether you want more or less is a decision you have to make, I'll vote for anything that makes life better for the next generation. But the next generation has to face reality and not want everything now at the cost the company wants. You build up conditions over years, you can smash them down overnight.
Last edited by 43Inches; 9th Oct 2022 at 06:50.
The problem is still those willing to accept substandard conditions just to fly planes, even more so to fly a jet. If you can't see the forest for the trees you will never be able to group up and get anywhere. Why are pilots starving in GA? Because they chose to, and in one day they can change that and do another job. If you don't understand that is purely a self centered ideal you are lost. The same push to become a pilot at all costs then means they take that ideal all the way through their career, this ruins it for pilots who want to just fly GA or regional turboprops as the operators continually have a stream of cheap labor "doing it for the love" or doing it "for the hours". Again if you don't understand this fundamental issue in Australian aviation then you are arguing at clouds. If pilots didn't use companies as experience building rungs and treated them as real jobs then they all would pay proper salaries. Oh, I'll work as an instructor to build hours, I've nop people skills and bugger all teaching knowledge but hey, I'll do it for next to free to get those hours.
In your scenario I don't quite understand how the industry even works. If people are supposed to hang around in dead end jobs to jack up the salaries how do you then get into an airline or RFDS or jet charter etc? You could miss your opportunity to progress by hanging around in GA. You also forget that the Airline market could be influenced by international recruiting by the swipe of a pen in Canberra. To prove the point there was a time around the 2013s when airline recruiting came to a halt. Did the folks stuck in GA get massive pay rises then even though people spent years in the same job??
Last edited by neville_nobody; 10th Oct 2022 at 02:57.
It is OUR responsibility as currently employed members of virgin/ Jetstar/ Network/ NJS etc to improve the conditions for those that come after us. It is not the responsibility of young pilots to languish in GA longer so my terms and conditions at the airlines improve. ( I'm not even sure how that works but okay.....)
I'm not sure what your argument actually is. If you think that by people hanging around in dead end jobs will drive wages up, the opposite in fact is true.
It's not really the fault of the new hires, nobody really tells the fresh CPLs whats good and bad, so they accept what they think is the norm for the time. This then comes back to industry unity to educate and control what new pilots think is acceptable. Good luck though, obviously flying schools don't want a bar of candidates being discouraged from learning to fly in any manner, in their eyes there are jobs everywhere at high pay.