Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Jetstar Aus/NZ Positions

Old 6th Oct 2022, 01:36
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Originally Posted by IGBK
Interview to hold file 2 weeks.
Hold file to offer 7 weeks.
Offer to contract 10 days.
Offer to start date 11 weeks.

I am already type rated.
not that itís a show stopper, but out of curiosity how long do they bond you for. I found a ďpossiblyĒ 36 months in the old eba but the wording seemed a bit loose 👍
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 01:45
  #662 (permalink)  
 
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There is no bond at JQ. They just keep you on a lower pay scale for 4 years, which equates to $40k in lost wages. Refer to the 2015 eba document.
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 01:55
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They keep you on L1 for 4 yrs. L2 for 1yr then L3 on your 6th yr, works out to be well over 50k with reduced salary, then add on allowances and any WDO you may work so could be upwards of 60k I am not kidding. Also, you will have to add on loss of income from resignation of last employment to your start date (usually about 2 weeks completion of type rating), they will cover your accommodation transport to and from training center flights etc if you're sent over to another country. I am not sure if the will supply accommodation if they type rate you in ML. either way you will have fund food and anything else you may like.
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 02:11
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Originally Posted by SHVC
They keep you on L1 for 4 yrs. L2 for 1yr then L3 on your 6th yr, works out to be well over 50k with reduced salary, then add on allowances and any WDO you may work so could be upwards of 60k I am not kidding. Also, you will have to add on loss of income from resignation of last employment to your start date (usually about 2 weeks completion of type rating), they will cover your accommodation transport to and from training center flights etc if you're sent over to another country. I am not sure if the will supply accommodation if they type rate you in ML. either way you will have fund food and anything else you may like.
great info, thanks. Honesty cap on, only really considering it as Iím an inactive on another carrier that can remain namelessÖ thought if thereís no bond itíll give me something to do until the nameless carrier invites me back
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 02:11
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Have ground schools for early next year been allocated yet? I heard there arenít ground schools running through Xmas and that the last for this year was November.
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 03:49
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Originally Posted by Updownside2side
Have ground schools for early next year been allocated yet? I heard there arenít ground schools running through Xmas and that the last for this year was November.
for JQ or VA? If you were referring to VA then heard nothing yet on next year. Monthly bid imports still go on but no word on start dates for next year. Probably wonít hear until next year or very end of this year rod theyíre really being productive. But Iím sure training departments slow down of Xmas so Iím just assuming december and January will be nothing to expect. Might start firing up again Feb but no official word to the main cohort l
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 04:03
  #667 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by IGBK
There is no bond at JQ. They just keep you on a lower pay scale for 4 years, which equates to $40k in lost wages. Refer to the 2015 eba document.
Thats not a bond, thatís paying for your endorsement. Thatís a disgrace.
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 04:35
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
Thats not a bond, that’s paying for your endorsement. That’s a disgrace.
Still a steady stream of takers, that's the sad part. If the individual can't even control their urges to fly a jet at any cost what hope have you of a concerted effort to negotiate better. Money is obviously not a driver for those applying at J* as you are shafted from day one,not even paid through training. And those conditions mentioned above must be among the lowest in the world now for flying the type in a modern economy.
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 06:20
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Still a steady stream of takers, that's the sad part. If the individual can't even control their urges to fly a jet at any cost what hope have you of a concerted effort to negotiate better.
So what are you suggesting people do? Sit in the RHS of a airline affiliated regional having their loyalty used against them?? Or go to Jetstar for 1-2 years then have the choice or working either in the Middle East, Europe, North America or Australia??
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 06:26
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
Still a steady stream of takers, that's the sad part. If the individual can't even control their urges to fly a jet at any cost what hope have you of a concerted effort to negotiate better. Money is obviously not a driver for those applying at J* as you are shafted from day one,not even paid through training. And those conditions mentioned above must be among the lowest in the world now for flying the type in a modern economy.
Unfortunately if you want to live in Australia you don't have a lot of choice. It's either QF, va or JQ. VA isn't any better than JQ these days.
There is increasing talk amongst the crews that quite a few are actively trying to leave. That's new and potentially the only thing that could drive changes.
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 06:40
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I've had mates passing in and out of J* for years since its inception. A lot of players only went there to get jet time to move up the ladder, overseas etc. Unfortunately the combination of not enough leaving and way too many with the same idea to replace them is why it will not change. At least until Rex and QLink are purged of pilots which will leave a gaping hole for them to sort out being the next rung in the ladder. Rex at least has a partially set up real cadetship, QF in general is still not quite sure what it wants to do in this area other than pray they can fill their hold file. I already know a few on QF hold file that have gone OS instead and probably wont come back.

So what are you suggesting people do? Sit in the RHS of a airline affiliated regional having their loyalty used against them?? Or go to Jetstar for 1-2 years then have the choice or working either in the Middle East, Europe, North America or Australia??
As a principle I've never bent to the stupid requirements some airlines require, from ridiculous pay to fly, or pay for endorsements, education other than year 12 etc, had to wait a little longer than others but it worked well and the last endorsement I paid for was while I was still in CPL training. All airlines I've worked for have paid me from the start date at ground school. A few more years sitting in a regional these days will have you a command, and I think all of them pay more for command than FOs at J*. The middle east and the freight mobs overseas are now taking turboprop drivers, they have no choice than to take what they can get.

I got no problem with people doing the job they want, but at least have some respect for yourself and others on the way up that you don't stuff the system from the inside.

Last edited by 43Inches; 7th Oct 2022 at 06:50.
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 06:41
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
Still a steady stream of takers, that's the sad part. If the individual can't even control their urges to fly a jet at any cost what hope have you of a concerted effort to negotiate better. Money is obviously not a driver for those applying at J* as you are shafted from day one,not even paid through training. And those conditions mentioned above must be among the lowest in the world now for flying the type in a modern economy.
Yeh, everyone in the regionals and GA should just sacrifice themselves and not apply, so that you clowns already sitting in your jets can be in a stronger negotiating position. Take a bow.

Pilots are paid shit because pilots are idiots. Seniority systems and bickering resulting in multiple unions mean the result will never change.

Don't blame regional and GA pilots because you're paid shit.
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 07:04
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Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
Yeh, everyone in the regionals and GA should just sacrifice themselves and not apply, so that you clowns already sitting in your jets can be in a stronger negotiating position. Take a bow.

Pilots are paid shit because pilots are idiots. Seniority systems and bickering resulting in multiple unions mean the result will never change.

Don't blame regional and GA pilots because you're paid shit.
Seriously if you think ditching seniority will somehow fix airline wages I think granitus may be between the ears. As said above already people are undercutting the system at the bottom. HR is not going to pay higher for experience, they'll just take anyone who fills the seat. And anybody that complains gets pushed out.

I do however completely agree with the bickering unions, and like in the case of QLink two pilot bodies being directly played against each other. Which is the entire idea of diluting union membership. While the US is not the perfect place for aviation ALPA has won a lot of general rules that protect pilot jobs, like the 1500 hour rule and so on. You can only get these changes if you have either unions working together or one single union that has clout. At the moment apart from Rex where the union seems to have unparalleled support the rest of Australian aviation is moving backwards. It doesn't help that years of government anti union measures have taken much of the fight and rights from workers.

Last edited by 43Inches; 7th Oct 2022 at 07:20.
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 10:43
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
While the US is not the perfect place for aviation ALPA has won a lot of general rules that protect pilot jobs, like the 1500 hour rule and so on.
The 1500 hour rule was not introduced to protect pilot jobs.
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 19:50
  #675 (permalink)  
 
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Whatís a JQ narrow body FO typically bring home ontop of the base these days per year?
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 21:59
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Originally Posted by xaos03
Whatís a JQ narrow body FO typically bring home ontop of the base these days per year?
Pre Covid, if you worked your butt off doing lots of days off and close to 1000 stick. An extra 50% on top of base pay.
Realistic working hard and not putting yourself in an early grave, an extra 33%.
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Old 8th Oct 2022, 02:31
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
Seriously if you think ditching seniority will somehow fix airline wages I think granitus may be between the ears. As said above already people are undercutting the system at the bottom. HR is not going to pay higher for experience, they'll just take anyone who fills the seat. And anybody that complains gets pushed out.
Nope. Seniority is a system pushed by rubbish pilots as a means to protect their careers. It completely removes your ability as a pilot to market your labor. If a Lawyer finds a better offer at another firm, they move to that firm. This places upwards pressure on wages across the board. This is the way executive pay is driven. Employers need to compete in the labor market for talent.

Pilots meanwhile, genius that they are, have literally blocked that capability so the airline no longer has to compete for squat. What did Salter tell us at the meeting years ago when it was pointed out tiger crew were paid more to do far, far less? "If tiger is so great, go work for them".

Except you can't, because seniority means that regardless of how good the deal is somewhere else, you start at the bottom on shit money. What leverage do you have to pressure wages up when the company knows that you're never going to leave? Zero. The only lever we have in our tool bag is to generate cost to the company through PIA in the hope that this cost exceeds the wage demand. But Qantas IR have shown that to them, the precedent is more valuable than the cost so haven't moved an inch.

Other professions laugh in my face when I explain to them how we've boxed ourselves in.

Still, at least old mate boost program gets a guaranteed shot at command right?

As said above already people are undercutting the system at the bottom
Blaming new hires is misdirected. You cannot expect people on a GA wage to just surrender their future to help your negotiating position. Are you going to share your income with them if they do? I suspect not.

I support pushing for better pay, don't misunderstand me. The way we've gone about it as a group is a disaster.
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Old 8th Oct 2022, 03:04
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Blaming new hires is misdirected. You cannot expect people on a GA wage to just surrender their future to help your negotiating position. Are you going to share your income with them if they do? I suspect not.

I support pushing for better pay, don't misunderstand me. The way we've gone about it as a group is a disaster.
Unfortunately its supply and demand, J* and VA got away with pay for your own endorsements because of pilots who wanted to fly jets no matter what. Seriously you had other choices. These same pilots who only think of themselves then rise through the ranks and you have similar situations as with the 330s into VA where lower seniority took the lower conditions at a time they should have shown solidarity to improve the lot. This applies to a number of other airlines and even to the mentality some pose that we all have to do some form of hard yards, whatever that means. You can see many cases outside of aviation where they find a pool of employees willing to work for less, because of no job security provision like seniority you may just be face with either accepting the much lower T & C or be training your replacements while you look for other work. A mate in IT went through this a few years ago at a bank. At least with current provisions and seniority a pilot workforce can at least maintain some sort of stability as pilots progress and those at the top who have given time to negotiate those conditions can continue to enjoy them while the newcomers agree to work on less, for whatever reason they see fit. I mean I see the problem straight away when you say those in the top seniority are lazy, no they are not they are reaping the rewards they fought for.

Except you can't, because seniority means that regardless of how good the deal is somewhere else, you start at the bottom on shit money. What leverage do you have to pressure wages up when the company knows that you're never going to leave? Zero. The only lever we have in our tool bag is to generate cost to the company through PIA in the hope that this cost exceeds the wage demand. But Qantas IR have shown that to them, the precedent is more valuable than the cost so haven't moved an inch.
Not sure how you would get onto top pay from the start without seniority, that makes no sense. And you do see the issue that the next guy is going to offer to do your job for less, there will be no EBA they will just offer contracts, like most other professional jobs. Airlines can already hire into command positions if they are short on EBA requirements outside of seniority if there are no internals to do it. Good luck negotiating contracts when you have no idea what the other pilots are offering. Hmm you turn up to job interview, see what is on offer, oh that's crud, well that's because several pilots with more jet experience than you have applied, they are willing to work for half your contract cause its more than they get paid at X airline, but want to live in Australia. Then you will see airline wages collapse in Australia.

I mean you could probably apply to Rex or Link and get a DEC on the SAAB right now, promoted to trainer/checker in short time and so on as the regional are so short. But no, the truth is most want seniority gone so that they can undercut the upper echelons to fast track to the jet LH seat. Its still the same mentality of the entry level. Any outfit that respecst skill and experience will hire you into the position they need you for. Airlines dont' need super pilots, they just need ok seat warmers so vast experience will not grant you some sort of huge wage increase, only negotiation of the entire group.

All you have to do is have been involved in airline level training to know its not the best and brightest out there, just an average cut of able bodied humans.

Last edited by 43Inches; 8th Oct 2022 at 03:16.
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Old 8th Oct 2022, 05:03
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As a principle I've never bent to the stupid requirements some airlines require, from ridiculous pay to fly, or pay for endorsements, education other than year 12 etc, had to wait a little longer than others but it worked well and the last endorsement I paid for was while I was still in CPL training.
Have you done this within in the last 20 years?? I've been flying for 20+ and I would still be looking for a single job on a community if I took that kind of stance. Every single operator wanted me to have both the experience and the endorsement. That's everyone from single engine charter operators through to regional and jet airlines.
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Old 8th Oct 2022, 05:19
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Have you done this within in the last 20 years?? I've been flying for 20+ and I would still be looking for a single job on a community if I took that kind of stance. Every single operator wanted me to have both the experience and the endorsement. That's everyone from single engine charter operators through to regional and jet airlines.
Started flying about 30 years ago and have worked for the last 25+ with regular work at a few different employers. Getting pilot jobs is as much networking as it is gathering experience, aim for a certain job and you will get it. Although when your preferred employers go broke it doesn't help. And I quickly learned the the allure of a shiny jet to a young one can be overwhelming, I don't blame the young pilots for wanting to get into one asap, but the airlines are taking advantage of your naivety. I've seen young guys in the last 20 years get into QF mainline under 25 years old after pestering mainline HR for their whole existence. Plan your path using knowledge gained by networking and asking questions and you can skip the shit operators all together. If you sit back and wait for the work, or want the easy path that doesn't require a bit of social interaction then sure, got the easy route and pay for it all yourself. But that attitude only lessens how the company you work for treats you, as they see you as some form of mug rather than a valued employee.

I've helped a few get jobs at airlines, through references and passing comment to HR that this person is reliable and won't waste your time etc etc. If you want to jump the ques, get to know who you have to talk to that will get your resume looked at, and will say a few good things to get you a look in. And its been said a million times, but aviation is a Tiny industry, getting on the wrong side of one person will cost you advancement, I know several pilots that are black banned at various operators due to their conduct. And HR/operational staff do call each other and ask questions even if you don't put them down as referee. Why did X pilot leave you and not put you down as a reference? type questions.

PS if you are banned they wont say it, you just won't get time of day.
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