Rosters-Now v's then
Thread Starter
Rosters-Now v's then
I fly narrow bodies out of NZ.
Fatigue is a hot topic right now in our type of Airline flying as the sector lengths regionally allow some pretty long duties at all times of the day and night.
I am not sure if we as a pilot group are just more aware of fatigue or if the rosters have actually got worse since the 70's 80's and 90's ( I started flying in the 2000's).
If you were flying narrow bodies regionally in Australasia both then and now, what do you think?
Has the 'efficiency' of the rostering systems/CAR's made the job more tiring or are we just assuming that to be so?
What was a typical roster like 30 years ago?
Did red eye trans-Tasman even exist then?
Anyone got a copy of an old roster they can post?
Cheers,
QandA
Fatigue is a hot topic right now in our type of Airline flying as the sector lengths regionally allow some pretty long duties at all times of the day and night.
I am not sure if we as a pilot group are just more aware of fatigue or if the rosters have actually got worse since the 70's 80's and 90's ( I started flying in the 2000's).
If you were flying narrow bodies regionally in Australasia both then and now, what do you think?
Has the 'efficiency' of the rostering systems/CAR's made the job more tiring or are we just assuming that to be so?
What was a typical roster like 30 years ago?
Did red eye trans-Tasman even exist then?
Anyone got a copy of an old roster they can post?
Cheers,
QandA
In the late 90s I flew about two sectors a duty, 60hrs a month, and my girlfriend kept telling me I have too much time off
Now I fly about 4 sectors, 90hrs a month, and my now wife keeps nagging me that she never sees me!
Now I fly about 4 sectors, 90hrs a month, and my now wife keeps nagging me that she never sees me!
Rosters back then were designed to facilitate the flying of aeroplanes around the place, and now they are predatory practices designed to suck the very life out of you for reasons of profit maximization. Simple.
I'm just glad to be nearing retirement.
I'm just glad to be nearing retirement.
We had it too good before the " war "
Before the " war " in 1989 we had it so good as far as domestic flying duty hours in a roster went. Most of us " block holders " would be pushing it to have done 650-700 hrs per year .Quite often we would fly one leg and pax home ! Quite a few days were of no more than 4 sectors and some just 2 and I am not talking International we are talking domestic East Coast of Australia with flights to the West. I was a fairly senior Training Capt . and could virtually pick what block I wanted and usually went for the most flying hours but there was not a real lot compared to today.
Upon reflection we were paid a lot for doing not a lot.
When I had to go overseas due to the " war " I really found out what it was to have to do a good days work.
Some will howl me down but that is how I found it!
I do not for one minute decry that the wheel has gone the other way and that a huge lot of pilots are doing a real lot of flying hours and maybe too many for safety but the thread starter asked for a comparison so this is what I have posted.
Upon reflection we were paid a lot for doing not a lot.
When I had to go overseas due to the " war " I really found out what it was to have to do a good days work.
Some will howl me down but that is how I found it!
I do not for one minute decry that the wheel has gone the other way and that a huge lot of pilots are doing a real lot of flying hours and maybe too many for safety but the thread starter asked for a comparison so this is what I have posted.
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What was a typical roster like 30 years ago?
Did red eye trans-Tasman even exist then?
Did red eye trans-Tasman even exist then?
AKL-PER-AKL was a once a week B747 that overnighted in PER and flew back during the day.
AKL-SYD-AKL (NZ) or SYD-AKL-SYD (QF) was a once a day 747 affair for both NZ and QF at respective respectable times. (UA and CO were operating once a day on this route as well)
I don't think any of NZ's 737 island services operated beyond midnight, perhaps the once a week AKL-NAN-RAR-PPT did.
Very different schedules, hence I'd imagine very different rosters. You couldn't fly 3 TT sectors a day because there weren't any aircraft doing 3 TT sectors, same with red-eyes.
Before the " war " in 1989 we had it so good as far as domestic flying duty hours in a roster went. Most of us " block holders " would be pushing it to have done 650-700 hrs per year .Quite often we would fly one leg and pax home ! Quite a few days were of no more than 4 sectors and some just 2 and I am not talking International we are talking domestic East Coast of Australia with flights to the West. I was a fairly senior Training Capt . and could virtually pick what block I wanted and usually went for the most flying hours but there was not a real lot compared to today.
Upon reflection we were paid a lot for doing not a lot.
When I had to go overseas due to the " war " I really found out what it was to have to do a good days work.
Some will howl me down but that is how I found it!
I do not for one minute decry that the wheel has gone the other way and that a huge lot of pilots are doing a real lot of flying hours and maybe too many for safety but the thread starter asked for a comparison so this is what I have posted.
Upon reflection we were paid a lot for doing not a lot.
When I had to go overseas due to the " war " I really found out what it was to have to do a good days work.
Some will howl me down but that is how I found it!
I do not for one minute decry that the wheel has gone the other way and that a huge lot of pilots are doing a real lot of flying hours and maybe too many for safety but the thread starter asked for a comparison so this is what I have posted.
I suspect one big difference between Now and Then is back Then most of the people responsible for running the airline had personally experienced the effects of time zone changes, middle of the night flying etc and the schedules and rosters reflected this. Whereas Now most of the people running the show have only worked 8 till 5 in one time zone and have no ****ing idea of the effects time zone changes/sleep patterns have on a person, and the schedules and rosters reflect this.
Nunc est bibendum
Qantas wide body domestic flying rosters are much better now than they were 15-20 years ago. That said, we are doing the hours in less days at work so the flying is more efficient.
Not to make the fatigue aspect irrelevant, but as some has said, 20-30 years ago, there was maybe a widebody, that flew once a day across the Tasman.
And look how much ticket prices were and the volume of traffic. High ticket prices, low volumes of traffic.
Now that we have 3-4 flights a day from each port across the Tasman, with smaller narrowbody aircraft, we have greater frequency, more aircraft, and more importantly, more jobs.
I know that there are probably those with the single digit senority numbers that probably bemoan the fact that there are now vast narrowbody fleets plying the Tasman, stealing their flying. But the reality is, the demand is for greater frequencies of flights leaving when they want to leave, going direct to where they want to go, not one large aircraft flying once a day, unless it is with a very large discount, on the way to somewhere else.
The reality is, redeye Trans-Tasmans are, to be blunt, one of the reason we probably have jobs. Yes, it allows utilisation of a otherwise idle asset, which yes, I do agree is not the most ideal time to be flying. But there is a demand for it, whether it be due to the large discount flying at that time of night or simply because it was the most convient. Schedules are driven by commercial. Its up to technical and resource planning/rostering to make it happen safely.
The biggest problem IMHO is not the redeye duties themselves but it is how they are rostered and how suitable rest periods are NOT protected by some operators, after and before the redeye duty.
And look how much ticket prices were and the volume of traffic. High ticket prices, low volumes of traffic.
Now that we have 3-4 flights a day from each port across the Tasman, with smaller narrowbody aircraft, we have greater frequency, more aircraft, and more importantly, more jobs.
I know that there are probably those with the single digit senority numbers that probably bemoan the fact that there are now vast narrowbody fleets plying the Tasman, stealing their flying. But the reality is, the demand is for greater frequencies of flights leaving when they want to leave, going direct to where they want to go, not one large aircraft flying once a day, unless it is with a very large discount, on the way to somewhere else.
The reality is, redeye Trans-Tasmans are, to be blunt, one of the reason we probably have jobs. Yes, it allows utilisation of a otherwise idle asset, which yes, I do agree is not the most ideal time to be flying. But there is a demand for it, whether it be due to the large discount flying at that time of night or simply because it was the most convient. Schedules are driven by commercial. Its up to technical and resource planning/rostering to make it happen safely.
The biggest problem IMHO is not the redeye duties themselves but it is how they are rostered and how suitable rest periods are NOT protected by some operators, after and before the redeye duty.
"The biggest problem IMHO is not the redeye duties themselves but it is how they are rostered and how suitable rest periods are NOT protected by some operators, after and before the redeye duty."
Therein lies the detail.
Therein lies the detail.
Very different schedules, hence I'd imagine very different rosters. You couldn't fly 3 TT sectors a day because there weren't any aircraft doing 3 TT sectors, same with red-eyes.
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Originally Posted by Ken Borough
But Qantas used to schedule duties like SYD/CHC/MEL/SYD or SYD/MEL/AKL/SYD in one duty day.
So the rosters before the war were financially unsustainable?
It's only unsustainable if the product is offered at an unsustainable price. It is only offered at an unsustainable price if competitors have a regulatory advantage. Competitors only have a regulatory advantage if we "open the skies". We would only ' open the skies' if we were of the belief that a pure " free enterprise" ideology was acceptable to us from a commercial/ sovereignty/ safety perspective when applied to Airlines.
In short, if everyone has to build rosters that afford well rested crews, the ticket price goes up by $3 a ticket and life rolls on.
In short, if everyone has to build rosters that afford well rested crews, the ticket price goes up by $3 a ticket and life rolls on.
Bingo framer
Fatigue management is worth a measly few bucks and even that's too much. Safety first-ish eh?
Fatigue management is worth a measly few bucks and even that's too much. Safety first-ish eh?
Moderator
So the rosters before the war were financially unsustainable?
One needs to keep in mind, pre-deregulation (and concerns regarding post-deregulation reality was the main driver for management strategies during the period which is not talked about much here), ..
(a) basically a controlled, cost-plus operation for both players
(b) the higher cost during those days was airframe related so both paid considerable attention to juggling that cost .. hence lots of cancellation and substitution to keep load factors up .. which led to a significant minority of one's month being taken up with paxing.
.. as Rod indicated .. it was a wonderful lifestyle for crews (other, I guess, than for those at the bottom of the seniority on Type list). More than once I heard the cry "aircraft were only to get the crew from one party to the next .. " .. not that I ever indulged in party-going activities, of course
One needs to keep in mind, pre-deregulation (and concerns regarding post-deregulation reality was the main driver for management strategies during the period which is not talked about much here), ..
(a) basically a controlled, cost-plus operation for both players
(b) the higher cost during those days was airframe related so both paid considerable attention to juggling that cost .. hence lots of cancellation and substitution to keep load factors up .. which led to a significant minority of one's month being taken up with paxing.
.. as Rod indicated .. it was a wonderful lifestyle for crews (other, I guess, than for those at the bottom of the seniority on Type list). More than once I heard the cry "aircraft were only to get the crew from one party to the next .. " .. not that I ever indulged in party-going activities, of course
