Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

FRMS Battlelines

Old 26th Sep 2016, 07:47
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Originally Posted by Popgun
Word on the street indicates JQ's FRMS application has been knocked back 3 times now and that a senior manager has been unfairly made to take the fall. The deadline for approval is nominally the end of next month for a 1 May 2017 implementation date.

I hear one of the reasons they are scrambling to recruit now is that many of the current crewing practices will not be permitted under the approved FRMS. There will likely be a need for significant numbers of extra pilots to crew A320 back of the clock flights as well as a third pilot on some more of the B787 sectors.

Apparently the crew rest setup on the 787 (just a pax seat in cabin) has not met CASA requirements either. Rumours that options being looked at (cheapest cost) include fitting some kind of pre-fabricated box with a lie-flat seat in the forward economy cabin as the re-fitting of the manufacturer-designed pilot crew rest above the forward galley is very costly. I was told it could possibly be fitted as needed and then replaced with revenue seats on flights where it was not required. I can see the engineers really loving that on a 2 hour turnaround!

With the FRMS application deadline looming, will CASA back down and gift them a further time extension to get their house in order? Or will JQ pilots finally get some safe and sensible limits imposed on their often dreadful, fatiguing rosters?

PG
Maybe the old 767 crew rest boxes are stored at Mascot somewhere?
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Old 26th Sep 2016, 08:08
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If FAID is not "scientifically based", what is? Genuinely interested..
Interesting question. I think the answer is airlines buy FAID/FAST off the shelf turn it on and away you go. However there is no scientific validation e.g. mapping of rosters, crews wearing motion watches etc etc as it could be seen a one size fits all system. Neither system looks at cumulative fatigue well either.
In the UK BALPA are looking at all these systems under review by a scientific body
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 06:03
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The only reason every (yes every) airline operator in Australia has gone down the FRMS path is because they see it as another opportunity for greater "productivity".

The BS and smoke and mirrors of scientific based limits is just that! I had a discussion once with a manager who had been put in charge of his company's FRMS program. I'm sure his babbling about the bio mathematical model gave him some sense of personal intellect, but the reality is, it's all just a con!
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Old 28th Sep 2016, 00:57
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The only reason every (yes every) airline operator in Australia has gone down the FRMS path is because they see it as another opportunity for greater "productivity".
My understanding was CASA were pushing it as a way out of CAO 48.
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Old 28th Sep 2016, 06:11
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Nev, the operators had a choice. A new set of prescriptive rules at the stroke of a pen;

or a complex, laborious, and expensive excercise called an FRMS.

I'm sure they took the latter course because of the scientifically proven benefits for all concerned!

Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 1st Oct 2016 at 21:58.
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Old 1st Oct 2016, 20:29
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Word is CASA have admitted they have no evidence to support the need for 48.1 for all operators. A postponment and review to learn which operators need anything other than the current rule set and which operators need something up to, and possibly including 48.1, is something the failed 'one size fits all' attempt should have done years ago.
Fatigue is real and CASAs amatuerish attempt to manage it deserves a Show Cause.
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Old 1st Oct 2016, 21:56
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I'll take 48.1 over the current 48 any day!
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Old 7th Oct 2016, 00:52
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The Australian reporting CASA has again pushed back the deadline. Now October 2018.

The aviation regulator is delaying its deadline for compliance with new pilot flight and duty time limits for the second time in 14 months, instead holding an *independent review into the necessity of the rule changes.

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority said it had decided to delay the implementation of the rules after “extensive” feedback from the industry.

Operators will now have until May 2018 to comply with the new rules.

CASA said it would use the deadline extension to conduct an “independent and comprehensive” review of fatigue limits.

“CASA is committed to modernising and improving the safety regulation of fatigue and is encouraging a continued focus on fatigue management by air operators,” the regulator said.

About 50 of the nation’s 900 airline operators have transitioned across to new rules but under the extension, they will not be able to roll back to the previous rules.

Unions, airlines and lobby groups have been working with the regulator for more than five years to bring about the changes, prompted by Inter*national Civil Aviation Organisation recommendations.

ICAO recommended the rules reflected in Civil Aviation Order 48.1 after a series of accidents in which fatigue was deemed a significant factor.

Pilot fatigue has been cited as a factor in at least 12 accidents and 64 near-misses globally over the past 10 years, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau says.

The old fatigue rules defined flight and duty time limitations with no regard to the science behind fatigue. But the 48.1 rules are driven by research and oblige operators to document fatigue management policies and to continuously reassess and improve fatigue management.

The deadline extension is a win for airlines and lobby groups, which pushed back against the rules, saying they would increase their costs of *operations.

Regional Express has claimed the new rules would cost it more than $4 million a year and could make some routes unviable.

The Regional Aviation Association of Australia described 48.1 as the “most restrictive aviation work and rest rule regime in the world” with no evidence-based safety justification for it.

Yesterday, RAAA chief Mike Higgins welcomed the extension and review but Australian and International Pilots Association president Nathan Safe slammed the decision to delay the rules, saying it would take Australia from “safety regulation heroes to Third World zeros”.

“The decision to delay full implementation by a further year merely prolongs the risk of more fatigue-related accidents in Australia,” he said. “Any impetus for operators to adopt modern *fatigue risk-management processes has been removed and it may well be that overall compliance levels begin to fall under a publicly weakened regulator.”

In preparation to operate under CAO 48.1, air operators must submit draft operations manual changes or an application for a fatigue risk management system to CASA by October 31, 2017.

Last edited by myshoutcaptain; 7th Oct 2016 at 01:15.
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Old 7th Oct 2016, 03:15
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FARCE!!!!!
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Old 7th Oct 2016, 03:18
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Yes the Aus has announced it
PPrune now onto it
We were told by casa rep a month ago it would be delayed but there is nothing official sent from casa that I've seen
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Old 7th Oct 2016, 03:21
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Originally Posted by holdingagain
Yes the Aus has announced it
PPrune now onto it
We were told by casa rep a month ago it would be delayed but there is nothing official from casa that I've seen
How about https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/fatigue-rule-cao-481-transition-period-extended-12-months

https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-pag...nded-12-months
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Old 7th Oct 2016, 04:29
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Fox Minding The Hen House

Farcical Indeed.

Airline Management in Australia must find it hilariously satisfying how easily they control the Regulator.

Where's an independent umpire when you need one?

I assume this will require additional legislation? Any chance the unions will be able to get Nick Xenophon to assist in the Upper House.

This latest "Yes Sir, No Sir, Three Bags Full Sir" from CASA is almost as laughable as the Big 4 Bank CEOs being called to account in Canberra this week.

Fatigue, and it's insidiously detrimental effect on aviation safety, once again takes a back seat to the rich and powerful bean counters that run our airlines.

PG
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Old 7th Oct 2016, 06:34
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Where's an independent umpire when you need one?
That's a good point. Is their an avenue for putting some acid on this?
An ombudsman or equivalent ?
Could we organise a 4000 strong petition of Aus based pilots that would get some attention?
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Old 7th Oct 2016, 11:36
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If there is any acid to be apllied it should be on CASA.
It seems that even with all the commonwealth resources available to them, with all the hundreds of thousands of dollars in wages and trips to Montreal and ICAO, with all the training workshops held throughout the land,CASA still failed to prosecute their safety case well enough. If CASA can't put up a strong argument for FRMS, what hope is there? The CASA FRMS gurus should hang their heads in shame.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 07:09
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Great news on the FRMS front! Finally some serious scientific research to be conducted into the effects of Long Haul flying...


Qantas boss Alan Joyce daring to dream non-stop

In June Qantas also announced a research partnership with the University of Sydney’s Charles Perkins Centre to examine ways to reduce jet-lag on long-haul flights, which will be a critical part of its network rethink.

The study’s first two participants are model Jesinta Campbell and Australian Rugby Sevens captain Ed Jenkins, and the airline has invited some of its frequent flyers to be involved in the trials.

Joyce was at the university a week ago to check on the progress of the work with its Chancellor and former QBE chairman Belinda Hutchinson, who is a big backer of the project.
/sarc
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 02:59
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That is only going to find out what QF want to hear. I guarantee now there won't be to much in the way of adverse findings that's for sure.

It's a bit like the radiation studies that have been done in the past.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 09:07
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Originally Posted by CurtainTwitcher
Great news on the FRMS front! Finally some serious scientific research to be conducted into the effects of Long Haul flying...


Qantas boss Alan Joyce daring to dream non-stop



/sarc
The study may find some hints for PASSENGERS about reducing jetlag, this is nothing to do with crew or FRMS.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 12:37
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Originally Posted by Snakecharma
We as pilots are still miles in front of junior doctors who works crushing shifts and they too have the power of life over death - doesn't make it right just making the observation
Might want to read this, only cancer and heart diseases are more dangerous than being treated at a hospital.

Hospital Errors are the Third Leading Cause of Death in U.S., and New Hospital Safety Scores Show Improvements Are Too Slow
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 21:15
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Originally Posted by Tankengine
The study may find some hints for PASSENGERS about reducing jetlag, this is nothing to do with crew or FRMS.
That was my whole point! (even included the hidden /sarc = sarcasm tag) Nothing new here for those actually doing this month in month out for years at the front.

Yes, junior doctors do work incredibly hard, punishing 90 hour weeks, with 32 hour shifts. But then most of them end up not being junior doctors. Rarely would they do this for their entire working life. Pilots have to consider sustaining 40+ years.
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Old 29th Aug 2017, 01:28
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Now the deadline is April 2018! This latest dribble basically states that all the work and consultation that went into the FRMS CAAP in the first place was a complete waste of time. It doesn't matter who the expert panel is the RAAA will whinge and bleat on about how much it will cost them and it will be delayed by another 12 months. Read it and weep:

Review of fatigue rules underway
A team of leading international specialists is conducting an independent review of the new fatigue rules. The review is benchmarking the new fatigue regulations against those of other leading aviation countries and regulators, including the European Aviation Safety Agency, New Zealand, the United States, United Kingdom and Canada. It will also look at results of investigations into fatigue related accidents and incidents and how CASA's philosophy and approach to fatigue regulation compares with that of other transport regulators and high-risk industries. The outcomes of the review will provide CASA with an informed basis for finalising the reform of the fatigue rules for air operators and pilots. Dédale Asia Pacific has assembled a team of specialists to carry out the review, which will provide a full report and recommendations to the CASA Board early in 2018. The specialists have experience and expertise in studying the effects of fatigue on operational performance in a range of safety critical industries, as well as developing and evaluating fatigue models. They have worked with airlines and other transport operators to implement effective fatigue risk management systems. CASA will extend the implementation period for new fatigue regulations by an additional six months to enable sufficient time for the review to be carried out and recommendations to be considered. Air operators will be required to submit their draft operations manual changes or an application for a fatigue risk management system to CASA by 30 April 2018, and complete the transition to the new fatigue rules by 31 October 2018.
Find out more about the fatigue review
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