Unintended consequences
Thread Starter
Unintended consequences
Air NZ's seat pricing policy has an unfortunate unintended consequence on its Q300 routes: It impacts negatively on unprepared emergency survivability.
The most expensive seat selection option on regional flights is the emergency exit row, resulting in their frequently remaining unoccupied during flight.
I've mentioned this on occasion to cabin crew whose responses range from the dim - "We want to keep those seats unoccupied so that passengers can easily exit through the window" to the ludicrous "We're trained to climb over the seats and open them ourselves" to the Blinding Flash of the Obvious (relayed from the cockpit, no less) "It's not a CAA requirement"
Oh and "Well, you don’t know our safety procedures”
(Yes I do. You’ve give your safety briefing and I’ve read the emergency instructions. Or is there something I should know that you’re not telling me?)
It comes down to this:
There's a unprepared emergency on either take-off or landing.
No-one has been identified as being fit and willing to assume a key role, let alone been briefed on their responsibility.
Passengers are in shock, perhaps immobilised and unable to reach the window exits due other passengers heading to the front of the aircraft, their logical exit route.
50% of your egress options are non-functional.
And there's such a simple solution: actively offer passengers who meet the selection criteria a seat with more legroom and an empty seat next to them.
Air Nelson management appears to show as much interest in the issue as their cabin staff, by the way......
The most expensive seat selection option on regional flights is the emergency exit row, resulting in their frequently remaining unoccupied during flight.
I've mentioned this on occasion to cabin crew whose responses range from the dim - "We want to keep those seats unoccupied so that passengers can easily exit through the window" to the ludicrous "We're trained to climb over the seats and open them ourselves" to the Blinding Flash of the Obvious (relayed from the cockpit, no less) "It's not a CAA requirement"
Oh and "Well, you don’t know our safety procedures”
(Yes I do. You’ve give your safety briefing and I’ve read the emergency instructions. Or is there something I should know that you’re not telling me?)
It comes down to this:
There's a unprepared emergency on either take-off or landing.
No-one has been identified as being fit and willing to assume a key role, let alone been briefed on their responsibility.
Passengers are in shock, perhaps immobilised and unable to reach the window exits due other passengers heading to the front of the aircraft, their logical exit route.
50% of your egress options are non-functional.
And there's such a simple solution: actively offer passengers who meet the selection criteria a seat with more legroom and an empty seat next to them.
Air Nelson management appears to show as much interest in the issue as their cabin staff, by the way......
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Redman, I wouldn't worry about him. I did a HUET course today (company requirement). Couple things I realised, you DON'T want a dipsh!t sitting in those seats and..... you WANT somebody sitting in those seats (but not a dipsh!t)
Revman, very nice job.
Very nice.
Anyway, I often find myself in the exact same position you describe!
As a professional aviator I have found that it is important that the cabin crew are alerted to the fact that an educated and qualified crew member be available to help in the unlikely event of an emergency.
I find the best way is to ensure you pax in full uniform.
Resplendent in epaulettes, wings and a thick AIRBUS or BOEING lanyard holding my ASIC there is no doubt that I am capable and willing to assist in an evacuation should it be required.
I suggest Sir that even if you are not on duty, even on holidays, that you turn up to the airport, when traveling, in full uniform and you will be given the exit row. (You may still need to undergo security screening but if you are not a frustrated wannabe airline pilot with a PPL and an ego then that shouldn't bother you, so we won't go there
Anywho.. should you require any further information concerning the correct procedures for paxing as a professional aviator, please don't hesitate to ask I am more than willing to help
Very nice.
Anyway, I often find myself in the exact same position you describe!
As a professional aviator I have found that it is important that the cabin crew are alerted to the fact that an educated and qualified crew member be available to help in the unlikely event of an emergency.
I find the best way is to ensure you pax in full uniform.
Resplendent in epaulettes, wings and a thick AIRBUS or BOEING lanyard holding my ASIC there is no doubt that I am capable and willing to assist in an evacuation should it be required.
I suggest Sir that even if you are not on duty, even on holidays, that you turn up to the airport, when traveling, in full uniform and you will be given the exit row. (You may still need to undergo security screening but if you are not a frustrated wannabe airline pilot with a PPL and an ego then that shouldn't bother you, so we won't go there
Anywho.. should you require any further information concerning the correct procedures for paxing as a professional aviator, please don't hesitate to ask I am more than willing to help
Anyway, I often find myself in the exact same position you describe!
As a professional aviator I have found that it is important that the cabin crew are alerted to the fact that an educated and qualified crew member be available to help in the unlikely event of an emergency.
I find the best way is to ensure you pax in full uniform.
Resplendent in epaulettes, wings and a thick AIRBUS or BOEING lanyard holding my ASIC there is no doubt that I am capable and willing to assist in an evacuation should it be required.
I suggest Sir that even if you are not on duty, even on holidays, that you turn up to the airport, when traveling, in full uniform and you will be given the exit row. (You may still need to undergo security screening but if you are not a frustrated wannabe airline pilot with a PPL and an ego then that shouldn't bother you, so we won't go there
Anywho.. should you require any further information concerning the correct procedures for paxing as a professional aviator, please don't hesitate to ask I am more than willing to help
As a professional aviator I have found that it is important that the cabin crew are alerted to the fact that an educated and qualified crew member be available to help in the unlikely event of an emergency.
I find the best way is to ensure you pax in full uniform.
Resplendent in epaulettes, wings and a thick AIRBUS or BOEING lanyard holding my ASIC there is no doubt that I am capable and willing to assist in an evacuation should it be required.
I suggest Sir that even if you are not on duty, even on holidays, that you turn up to the airport, when traveling, in full uniform and you will be given the exit row. (You may still need to undergo security screening but if you are not a frustrated wannabe airline pilot with a PPL and an ego then that shouldn't bother you, so we won't go there
Anywho.. should you require any further information concerning the correct procedures for paxing as a professional aviator, please don't hesitate to ask I am more than willing to help
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Fransisco
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember years ago Comply posted a very similar post and received a fair bit of stick about it. The fact that almost the same thing, word for word has been said again strongly suggests he/she was just taking the piss all along.
Awesome, well done!
Wear, touch or even look at my uniform when on holidays, no way. As far as the Emergency Exit Row seats go, I will take the risk and sit wherever.
I do hope you are taking the piss Comply.
Awesome, well done!
Wear, touch or even look at my uniform when on holidays, no way. As far as the Emergency Exit Row seats go, I will take the risk and sit wherever.
I do hope you are taking the piss Comply.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Revman - if you want the seat with extra legroom, PAY FOR IT.
If not, don't bleat!
In a prepared emergency, ABPs are going to be identified and moved. In an unprepared emergency, the average punter will panic and forget the briefing they got at the start of the flight. The net result being much the same as if no one was sitting in the exit row in the first place.
If it were such a critical issue, the regulators would mandate that a paid, trained person be adjacent to every exit, not just the door exits.
Just recall that the evacuation criteria at the certification level are based on the use of HALF the available exits anyway.
If not, don't bleat!
In a prepared emergency, ABPs are going to be identified and moved. In an unprepared emergency, the average punter will panic and forget the briefing they got at the start of the flight. The net result being much the same as if no one was sitting in the exit row in the first place.
If it were such a critical issue, the regulators would mandate that a paid, trained person be adjacent to every exit, not just the door exits.
Just recall that the evacuation criteria at the certification level are based on the use of HALF the available exits anyway.
Ah, no you don't. You are given a very brief instruction on what you need to do in case of emergency. The crew's emergency procedures on the other hand are contained in an entire manual and will cover the procedures to be used in case those seats aren't occupied. There are some companies that require the emergency exit seats to be occupied, if Air NZ doesn't then they will have contingency procedures in place, and you don't know them and don't need to know them.
Once upon a time, some airlines were proactive in identifying flight crew from their own or anyone else's airline and seating them in the emergency exits, cheapest insurance ever.
Then someone identified the emergency exit as an extra source of revenue and started selling off these prime seats. The seat pitch also reduced about this time, making the extra leg room even more desirable.
If the exit is not sold then there exists a chance for some cheap insurance by placing off duty crew in them or the opportunity to win some good will from the 6'6" guy or the frequent flyer by offering them the empty seat but to leave it empty is a missed opportunity either way.
It is, off course, up to the individual airline to ensure that their front line staff know, be directed and be allowed to take the initiative.
Then someone identified the emergency exit as an extra source of revenue and started selling off these prime seats. The seat pitch also reduced about this time, making the extra leg room even more desirable.
If the exit is not sold then there exists a chance for some cheap insurance by placing off duty crew in them or the opportunity to win some good will from the 6'6" guy or the frequent flyer by offering them the empty seat but to leave it empty is a missed opportunity either way.
It is, off course, up to the individual airline to ensure that their front line staff know, be directed and be allowed to take the initiative.
You've almost answered your own question....it isn't required by the CAA, nor is it required by Transport Canada or Bombardier, AND you argue that "50% of your egress options are non-functional".... well they certify the aircraft that way!
If an Emergency Exit is not attended by a competent and briefed attendant (pax?) for takeoff and landing, then that Emergency Exit should be considered as inoperative.
In most professional Airlines, the MEL would state that a reduction in the allowed number of passengers would be required for any inoperative Emergency Exits.
I might well be wrong of course...
In most professional Airlines, the MEL would state that a reduction in the allowed number of passengers would be required for any inoperative Emergency Exits.
I might well be wrong of course...
I think you are all assuming airlines give a flying farkadoodle about safety. The only thing that would worry an airline if an emergency exit seat was not filled is a lost opportunity for revenue. If it worries you as a passenger, give casa a buzz and express those concerns.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Devonport Tasmania Australia
Posts: 1,837
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did have an interesting experience in the late 80's on an AN A320 when my wife, myself and our 2 sons aged 12 and 14 we seated exit row.
Now my boys were then just a shade under 6 foot (youngest is 6'8" now and the eldest 6'4") and were well versed in aeroplanes, emegency exits and the like.
Cabin manager came back and abruptly stated that the boys couldn't be in an exit row.
On a rebated ticket, not going to argue so they were moved which didn't bother them.
All fine and good to go but before the doors close a family of 3 boards. Mum Dad and a girl probably 12 to 14 who unfortunately for no fault of her own had a major genetic or medical problem and subsequently the cognisant ability of a cabbage.
The dear girl was sat bang in the exit row across from me on the aisle.
After takeoff the CM came through doing the smiley bit while the others did meal service and I got her attention and asked whether there may be a double standard at play without causing any crossover to the family opposite.
Smilingly I was asked what I meant and pointed across.
She went red then white and stormed off. I had been careful not to cross over any angst to the family who God knows had their own problems and were off on a nice holiday. One unhappy CM though.
There were a few grins and nods from other FAs during the flight and I did mention to Ms ex Smiley on the way out the door that I perceived her dual standard as amateur.
Sure the boys shouldn't have been seated there but I didn't know until onboard.
The replacement passengers were a bigger problem as the dear girl wouldn't have been capable of helping herself or even following directions.
I am sure this still occurs but hopefully not here.
Best all
EWL
Now my boys were then just a shade under 6 foot (youngest is 6'8" now and the eldest 6'4") and were well versed in aeroplanes, emegency exits and the like.
Cabin manager came back and abruptly stated that the boys couldn't be in an exit row.
On a rebated ticket, not going to argue so they were moved which didn't bother them.
All fine and good to go but before the doors close a family of 3 boards. Mum Dad and a girl probably 12 to 14 who unfortunately for no fault of her own had a major genetic or medical problem and subsequently the cognisant ability of a cabbage.
The dear girl was sat bang in the exit row across from me on the aisle.
After takeoff the CM came through doing the smiley bit while the others did meal service and I got her attention and asked whether there may be a double standard at play without causing any crossover to the family opposite.
Smilingly I was asked what I meant and pointed across.
She went red then white and stormed off. I had been careful not to cross over any angst to the family who God knows had their own problems and were off on a nice holiday. One unhappy CM though.
There were a few grins and nods from other FAs during the flight and I did mention to Ms ex Smiley on the way out the door that I perceived her dual standard as amateur.
Sure the boys shouldn't have been seated there but I didn't know until onboard.
The replacement passengers were a bigger problem as the dear girl wouldn't have been capable of helping herself or even following directions.
I am sure this still occurs but hopefully not here.
Best all
EWL
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Perth
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm an engineer for a large well known helicopter company here in Aus. A few months ago I was travelling back from one of our bases, got to the airport with plenty of time and asked if any window seats available, check in staff noticed the company name and uniform and said she could do even better and gave me the window in the exit row, said she knew I'd know what to do.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Anyway, I often find myself in the exact same position you describe!
As a professional aviator I have found that it is important that the cabin crew are alerted to the fact that an educated and qualified crew member be available to help in the unlikely event of an emergency.
I find the best way is to ensure you pax in full uniform.
Resplendent in epaulettes, wings and a thick AIRBUS or BOEING lanyard holding my ASIC there is no doubt that I am capable and willing to assist in an evacuation should it be required.
I suggest Sir that even if you are not on duty, even on holidays, that you turn up to the airport, when traveling, in full uniform and you will be given the exit row. (You may still need to undergo security screening but if you are not a frustrated wannabe airline pilot with a PPL and an ego then that shouldn't bother you, so we won't go there
Anywho.. should you require any further information concerning the correct procedures for paxing as a professional aviator, please don't hesitate to ask I am more than willing to help
What constitutes a situation that warrants your involvement? A little frost on the wing? Maybe a minor fluid leak? Perhaps a remove before flight tag? Or maybe an obstruction inside or out?
I'm just wondering given the shellacking you have given the original poster when in reality he is merely stating the BLINDINGLY obvious. Irrespective of the 50% certification or otherwise isn't it worth a quick check? If nothing else it might save someone's life one day.
