AFAP not at the table in SAR Pilot Award ??
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All.....Aside.....
OK, Given all of this information regarding the organisation, has anybody actually been in contact with Cobham to discuss their concerns?
Has anybody received an invitation for interview?
MM.
Has anybody received an invitation for interview?
MM.
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OK, Given all of this information regarding the organisation, has anybody actually been in contact with Cobham to discuss their concerns?
Good on the AFAP for cleaning up the TWU's mess and publicly challenging both Cobham and the TWU.
The only parties to benefit from the TWU sweetheart deal are the company and the TWU. The company gets cheap labour, the TWU gets membership, at the expense of pilots - pilot terms and conditions on the SAR Contract going backwards, big time.
Not that anyone should be surprised that the TWU has apparently acted in its own interest at the expense of members...
Did the TWU fan club note the first two names referred for investigation by the Royal Commissioner? Jim McGiveron and Rick Burton, both TWU WA.
Jim McGiveron - among other things, for allegedly telling a union member to "f#ck off" when asked why a union member must pay into the TWU super fund, no freedom to choose their own fund.
Does you think that might have something to do with the news that senior officials of the TWU were paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees as directors of the super fund that they forced union members to pay in to.?
Rick Burton - Signs up maybe 50 or 60 Cobham pilots as TWU members 'for $1 a day.' Writes himself a letter authorising himself a pay rise, with an invitation to contact himself if he has any questions. Organises two F350 LHD trucks for himself and his mate for 'union business' at a cost of $300,000!
How much of that $1/day is left over to fund any looking out for pilots?
ABC news: 10 things you should know about the TURC
And... TWU Officials referred over luxury car purchases
Dyson Heydon went on to say,
"It is clear that in many parts of the world constituted by Australian trade union officials, there is room for louts, thugs, bullies, thieves, perjurers, those who threaten violence, errant fiduciaries and organisers of boycotts.
"There has been much perjury. A huge amount of the testimony given in hearings has been false to the knowledge of the witnesses."
Why the hell would any self respecting pilot pay money, even if it is "$1/day", to louts, thugs, bullies, thieves, perjurers....?
There is a perfectly good option that instead of undercutting pilots to line their pockets, fights for pilots, and wins for pilots.
TWU fanboys, what is your excuse? Do you ADMIRE this behaviour?
Last edited by HulaBula; 2nd Jan 2016 at 01:42. Reason: Misspelled thug, F350 not F250,
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody
I'd be betting there will be interest from the RAAF with many people already rated and they have the low level training and experience.
Cobham managers secretly canvassed some of the ex-RAAF 604 drivers now working on the B717 in the first half of 2015. Result: It wasn't enough flying and it wasn't enough money.
The long and the short of it is -- Cobham won the $640 million contract first (waxing lyrical to all, including the Tenderer, about the superior skill set and experience of their existing DHC-8 workforce) and then went hunting to see who would fly the missions, at the lowest possible cost, for the sole purpose of maximising profit for Cobham, the income being more or less a fixed price, $640m.
Cobham didn't have any luck with the RAAFies, they expected resistance from the (largely AFAP) existing Surveillance/SAR pilots, so they kept looking till they found the softest touch. Hence the greenfield sweetheart deal with the TWU.
HulaBula,
That behaviour by those twu INDIVIDUALS was reprehensable and they wee dealt with swiftly when their actions came to light. You seem hell bent on tarnishing an entire union based on what some individuals did.
As a TWU 'fanboy' I merely present to you the Skywest/VARA EBA - one of the best regional agreements for years and until recently solely negotiated by the TWU. Who does the other inferior regional EBA? (well actually two eba's cause that union couldnt prevent the cluster that is two seperate companies doing exactly the same work) The AFAP.
Im not going to back up the TWU on this Cobham agreement until I know the facts but they have good people who work damn hard to produce good aviation agreements.
That behaviour by those twu INDIVIDUALS was reprehensable and they wee dealt with swiftly when their actions came to light. You seem hell bent on tarnishing an entire union based on what some individuals did.
As a TWU 'fanboy' I merely present to you the Skywest/VARA EBA - one of the best regional agreements for years and until recently solely negotiated by the TWU. Who does the other inferior regional EBA? (well actually two eba's cause that union couldnt prevent the cluster that is two seperate companies doing exactly the same work) The AFAP.
Im not going to back up the TWU on this Cobham agreement until I know the facts but they have good people who work damn hard to produce good aviation agreements.
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Chadzat, I don't have to do any work to tarnish the TWU - Royal Commissioner Dyson Heydon has spent months looking into them and other rogue unions, and done all the work for me. Everything I say is found on the public record.
I will agree with you that a good agreement is not solely the product of a union. It is the combination of a union's resources and official standing in the eyes of the law, and hard working, intelligent reps that talk to their members, put in the hard yards, and come up with what the pilots need and want.
However I feel I must pick you up on a common 'dodge' used by all sorts of organisations caught with their pants down. You cannot dismiss the TWU fiasco as the work of two individuals. The Hon Dyson Hayden does not buy that, neither do I.
"Rogues" v the organisation......
Some time ago, a helicopter crew had an engine failure in their multi-engine chopper at they departed from a Timor Sea platform. Given the phase of the takeoff, the commander followed SOP and conducted a controlled ditching into the sea near the platform. Sixteen oil company employees ended up in the Timor Sea, wet and understandably shaken, and the oil company came calling on the helicopter company asking what the hell were they doing putting 16 of their employees in the water. The helicopter company attempted to solve the problem by firing the pilots. No matter that the experienced pilots did exactly what the ops manual said - the organisation needed a scapegoat to keep in with the oil company, here are two perfect scapegoats.
When Singapore banker and rogue trader Nick Leeson brought down the centuries old Barings Bank, the bank tried to blame that one 'rogue employee' for the disaster. However it was the directors of the bank that had to take the blame, for not exercising proper control and oversight.
When this perfectly serviceable B52 went down at Fairchild AFB, the 'rogue pilot' was blamed.... tragic, but the problem died with the pilot.... or did it?
USAF air safety investigator Dr Tony Kern was not going to be brainwashed by that bull****, and pointed to the numerous cultural deficiencies and lack of leadership in the USAF that permitted that pilot to take the controls that day. Have a read of Kerns excellent book
When caught with their pants down, political parties, helicopter companies, the military, banks and trade unions would like us all to believe the problem has 'gone away' with the departure of the 'rogues.'
The sad fact is, the 'rogues' operated within a system and a culture. Burton and McGiveron are gone, but they led the TWU WA for years.... will take a long time to unpick all their threads, if it is possible at all....
In 2006 some disaffected pilots went looking for industrial support and mentoring, and hitched up with the TWU WA. Disgraced TWU official Rick Burton was THE man they looked to, and oversaw every aspect of the TWU involvement at Cobham.
He might be gone, but in the eight years that he oversaw TWU activities at Cobham, he influenced how the reps operated, how the reps think, and what the reps expect.
I know the reps you talk about. They are all 'inputters' - they want to change things for the better. I say - how much better would things be, if they could unshackle themselves from an organisation that....
- a Royal Commission has recently gone through with a fine toothed comb and found multiple problems with behaviour, financials and governance,
- has a problem working with brother unions,
- has taken more money from pilots than they will ever spend on pilots,
.... and team up with an organisation that has better resources, a pilots only focus, solid links with pilot unions worldwide, disciplined and transparent governance, and is happy to show any member where and how they spend their members money?
The TWU is in damage control, and will be for years. They are a truck drivers union (nothing wrong with that, my old man drove trucks) but pilots are a sideshow, money for their jam.
And sorry to point out, but it sounds like you are a TWU member yet you have had no briefing or bulletins from the TWU on the details of the TWU/Cobham SAR greenfield agreement.
That just underlines to me - the TWU does sweetheart deals with employers and in the words of Jim McGiveron, the pilots can "F- off."
I will agree with you that a good agreement is not solely the product of a union. It is the combination of a union's resources and official standing in the eyes of the law, and hard working, intelligent reps that talk to their members, put in the hard yards, and come up with what the pilots need and want.
However I feel I must pick you up on a common 'dodge' used by all sorts of organisations caught with their pants down. You cannot dismiss the TWU fiasco as the work of two individuals. The Hon Dyson Hayden does not buy that, neither do I.
"Rogues" v the organisation......
Some time ago, a helicopter crew had an engine failure in their multi-engine chopper at they departed from a Timor Sea platform. Given the phase of the takeoff, the commander followed SOP and conducted a controlled ditching into the sea near the platform. Sixteen oil company employees ended up in the Timor Sea, wet and understandably shaken, and the oil company came calling on the helicopter company asking what the hell were they doing putting 16 of their employees in the water. The helicopter company attempted to solve the problem by firing the pilots. No matter that the experienced pilots did exactly what the ops manual said - the organisation needed a scapegoat to keep in with the oil company, here are two perfect scapegoats.
When Singapore banker and rogue trader Nick Leeson brought down the centuries old Barings Bank, the bank tried to blame that one 'rogue employee' for the disaster. However it was the directors of the bank that had to take the blame, for not exercising proper control and oversight.
When this perfectly serviceable B52 went down at Fairchild AFB, the 'rogue pilot' was blamed.... tragic, but the problem died with the pilot.... or did it?
USAF air safety investigator Dr Tony Kern was not going to be brainwashed by that bull****, and pointed to the numerous cultural deficiencies and lack of leadership in the USAF that permitted that pilot to take the controls that day. Have a read of Kerns excellent book
When caught with their pants down, political parties, helicopter companies, the military, banks and trade unions would like us all to believe the problem has 'gone away' with the departure of the 'rogues.'
The sad fact is, the 'rogues' operated within a system and a culture. Burton and McGiveron are gone, but they led the TWU WA for years.... will take a long time to unpick all their threads, if it is possible at all....
In 2006 some disaffected pilots went looking for industrial support and mentoring, and hitched up with the TWU WA. Disgraced TWU official Rick Burton was THE man they looked to, and oversaw every aspect of the TWU involvement at Cobham.
He might be gone, but in the eight years that he oversaw TWU activities at Cobham, he influenced how the reps operated, how the reps think, and what the reps expect.
I know the reps you talk about. They are all 'inputters' - they want to change things for the better. I say - how much better would things be, if they could unshackle themselves from an organisation that....
- a Royal Commission has recently gone through with a fine toothed comb and found multiple problems with behaviour, financials and governance,
- has a problem working with brother unions,
- has taken more money from pilots than they will ever spend on pilots,
.... and team up with an organisation that has better resources, a pilots only focus, solid links with pilot unions worldwide, disciplined and transparent governance, and is happy to show any member where and how they spend their members money?
The TWU is in damage control, and will be for years. They are a truck drivers union (nothing wrong with that, my old man drove trucks) but pilots are a sideshow, money for their jam.
And sorry to point out, but it sounds like you are a TWU member yet you have had no briefing or bulletins from the TWU on the details of the TWU/Cobham SAR greenfield agreement.
That just underlines to me - the TWU does sweetheart deals with employers and in the words of Jim McGiveron, the pilots can "F- off."
Last edited by HulaBula; 3rd Jan 2016 at 02:45.
You're speaking rubbish, HB. The TWU got you guys a far better deal then and you know it (were you even around then?... maybe you've changed your Prune handle...). Sure Rick Burton helped himself, and I'm not defending him for that. But he knew what he was doing, he did actually talk to the pilots, unlike the #$%^& that "run" a similar organisation. He was a good bloke. He knew his stuff and he got results.
So pull your head in and engage who ever you work for instead of bleating because you were left out in the cold. And stop sledging the rest of your compatriots. You will go nowhere fast ranting and raving.
As for all that stuff about extra "services", I would expect nothing less for the money that people have to pay! 1%! Seriously? (some forced because they use the AAP MBF...).
So pull your head in and engage who ever you work for instead of bleating because you were left out in the cold. And stop sledging the rest of your compatriots. You will go nowhere fast ranting and raving.
As for all that stuff about extra "services", I would expect nothing less for the money that people have to pay! 1%! Seriously? (some forced because they use the AAP MBF...).
Sorry H , I didnt bother reading your post. It reminded me of an AFAP update! Pages of drivel with no substance behind it.....
I see one PL has done his best to sling as much mud as he can on the TWU in the latest 'mag'. Slandering them even about agreements that he was also at the table for and also helped negotiate! Comical....
Anyway, this is descending into a bit of an argument so Ill sign off by saying that the TWU has put wayyyyy more into the EBA I work under than they have received in dues from our members. You dont see the TWU going in on the offensive slandering AFAP agreements with no provocation either.... That always seems to be the other way around.
I see one PL has done his best to sling as much mud as he can on the TWU in the latest 'mag'. Slandering them even about agreements that he was also at the table for and also helped negotiate! Comical....
Anyway, this is descending into a bit of an argument so Ill sign off by saying that the TWU has put wayyyyy more into the EBA I work under than they have received in dues from our members. You dont see the TWU going in on the offensive slandering AFAP agreements with no provocation either.... That always seems to be the other way around.
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Hello Bloggs, back to defend the indefensible again I see?
I found a book for you to read after Darker Shades of Blue.... not sure if you'd like it though, the author commends the AFAP.....
I found a book for you to read after Darker Shades of Blue.... not sure if you'd like it though, the author commends the AFAP.....
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and then went hunting to see who would fly the missions, at the lowest possible cost, for the sole purpose of maximising profit for Cobham, the income being more or less a fixed price, $640m
That's just crazy talk, I2.
It's not true that business owners and customers love watching cockpit labour racing to the bottom. Heck: In Australian aviation they can watch it on PPRuNe!
I look forward to the day that aspiring pilots give money to passengers for the privilege of being PIC.
It's not true that business owners and customers love watching cockpit labour racing to the bottom. Heck: In Australian aviation they can watch it on PPRuNe!
I look forward to the day that aspiring pilots give money to passengers for the privilege of being PIC.
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Poor Quality People.
He might be gone, but in the eight years that he oversaw TWU activities at Cobham, he influenced how the reps operated, how the reps think, and what the reps expect.
All devoid of a decent appreciation of CULTURE. Culture is the characteristics and knowledge of a particular group of people, defined by their everything from behaviour to language. A more comprehensive Definition could be -
Organisational Culture is the complex whole which characterises an Organisation through a system of shared assumptions, predominating attitudes, beliefs, characteristics, creativity, ethics, governance, intellect, knowledge, law, morals, norms, procedures, processes, systems, symbols, technology, values, and visions which guide what happens and governs appropriate behaviour for various situations within Organisations. These shared values have a strong influence on the people within the Organisation and dictate how they relate to each other, their work, and the outside world in comparison to other Organisations. Cultures are internally affected by both forces encouraging change and forces resisting change, through changing dynamics and other factors.
I think the good Commissioner would probably concur with most of the above. The outfit needs a damn good cleanout to restore some member confidence at the very least.
Keep the Faith. Regards, B E.
Last edited by The Big E; 4th Jan 2016 at 03:20. Reason: Spacing.
Originally Posted by Hulabula
Hello Bloggs, back to defend the indefensible again I see?
I found a book for you to read after Darker Shades of Blue.... not sure if you'd like it though, the author commends the AFAP.....
I found a book for you to read after Darker Shades of Blue.... not sure if you'd like it though, the author commends the AFAP.....
To pick up on some of your other reubbish...
Originally Posted by HoolaBoola
He might be gone, but in the eight years that he oversaw TWU activities at Cobham, he influenced how the reps operated, how the reps think, and what the reps expect.
