Australian pilots can work for US regionals.
Being a realist, I rarely kid myself. But this otherwise pleasant and encouraging thread just took an ugly turn.
By your criteria, ANYONE who takes a job with a regional or the likes of Atlas/Southern/ATI/Omni/Swift/National/Western Global/Miami Air/Sun Country, E3 or US citizen, is a "scab" ? Really ? Scab ? You might want to seek out a dictionary and some historical context before using such an inflammatory term.
Explain how people are going to go from being a 1500 hour CFI to UAL, AA, DL, SWA, FedEx,UPS, JB, Spirit, Frontier without a career-building stop somewhere along the way. These stops have ALWAYS been less than ideal and will always be less than ideal. It's been endlessly debated and decried to no avail...as it will be here.
You might want to properly use the term, scab, rather than just lobbing a fuzzy, emotional, intellectually dishonest hand grenade into a conversation.
By your criteria, ANYONE who takes a job with a regional or the likes of Atlas/Southern/ATI/Omni/Swift/National/Western Global/Miami Air/Sun Country, E3 or US citizen, is a "scab" ? Really ? Scab ? You might want to seek out a dictionary and some historical context before using such an inflammatory term.
Explain how people are going to go from being a 1500 hour CFI to UAL, AA, DL, SWA, FedEx,UPS, JB, Spirit, Frontier without a career-building stop somewhere along the way. These stops have ALWAYS been less than ideal and will always be less than ideal. It's been endlessly debated and decried to no avail...as it will be here.
You might want to properly use the term, scab, rather than just lobbing a fuzzy, emotional, intellectually dishonest hand grenade into a conversation.
Always trying cut corners this generation of young pilots. Regionals, part 135, scenic ops, instructing, or in Oz GA; that’s how a generation before you earn their hrs. Building experience flying a jumbo around the world is not it, you should have knowledge and skill before taking a job in these ops. THAT is what the pilot group (especially those in the left seat baby sitting you) are fighting for. YOUR mentality is whatever works to expedite your way some place else.
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Always trying cut corners this generation of young pilots. Regionals, part 135, scenic ops, instructing, or in Oz GA; that’s how a generation before you earn their hrs. Building experience flying a jumbo around the world is not it, you should have knowledge and skill before taking a job in these ops. THAT is what the pilot group (especially those in the left seat baby sitting you) are fighting for. YOUR mentality is whatever works to expedite your way some place else.
I'm in the ‘generation before’ and let’s be honest, - every generation tries to 'cut corners’.
Everyone works to progress up their chosen career ladder as best they can given the employment climate at the time.
I wish the E-3 visa with plentiful jobs was around 20 odd years ago when I was getting started. Back then with 1,500 hours I couldn’t even get into a piston-twin in Australia, now with 1,500 hours Aussies can go right into a Jet in the USA - so why wouldn’t they? The turn-around in opportunities is amazing and anyone would be mad not to capitalize on them. Criticizing people for doing so is idiotic. We don’t create the supply-and-demand employment metric, we can only position ourselves to gain from the climate at the time.
Not so many years ago, people in ‘my generation’ were criticized for buying type-ratings to boost their way up the ladder - so again, people in every generation seek to ‘cut-corners’ if they see it being to their advantage. That is a human thing, not a generational thing.
People who got started in the industry 20 years or so ago (like me) sometimes sound bitter towards the younger generation of pilots who do have far better opportunities than we had. But that’s life, suck it up! Just be thankful things are great now for all of us, and be happy for anyone who has good opportunities today.
In general people in the Left Seat aren’t fighting so much for the rights of FOs, but to protect their own position and income. Most Captains are beyond caring too much about the career opportunities for FOs, other than in terms of how the supply will affect their own employment conditions. Let’s face it, ultimately what each of us cares most about is our own income, conditions and employment opportunities.
Are you seriously saying the Aussie pilots employed as FOs in the USA don’t have the required knowledge and skills for the job? If you have evidence of that, you really should take it to the FAA - and if they don’t listen, then take your evidence to the media - this is going to be a huge scandal !!
Last edited by Jerry Springer; 5th Jan 2020 at 02:16.
Always trying cut corners this generation of young pilots. Regionals, part 135, scenic ops, instructing, or in Oz GA; that’s how a generation before you earn their hrs. Building experience flying a jumbo around the world is not it, you should have knowledge and skill before taking a job in these ops. THAT is what the pilot group (especially those in the left seat baby sitting you) are fighting for. YOUR mentality is whatever works to expedite your way some place else.
Atlas / Southern do not hire newly minted pilots. It's impossible. Only very few pilots on E3s manage to get entry level jobs in the US, which will still be instructing or whatever else.
I'd be surprised to see anywhere in the Atlas / Southern arbitration process anything that addresses experience levels of the FOs. To say that is specifically what they are fighting for is so far off base, its laughable.
You can have all the GA experience in the world, you're still going to need babysitting in your first jet, and after any other subsequent type rating. If you think otherwise then it's time to find a new job.
To be clear, I wouldn't ever even entertain the idea of working for Atlas or Southern, nor would many other Aussies over here.
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bafanguy, My personal thoughts, if there are any sort of industrial issues going on between pilot and company, I would be steering clear. It's a bit ultruistic to think that a race to the bottom using pilots on Visas to shore up numbers when conditions are no where industry standard is just about numbers.
When you're a guest in a country it's up to the person to obey the law, rules, regs and perhaps just as importantly the societal norms, industry norms. If it's expected that union membership is a cultural standard, join. If the union advises certain, legal industrial action, then you follow it. You don't just go to the country, get what you want and piss off. Leave a place better than when you started and all.
When you're a guest in a country it's up to the person to obey the law, rules, regs and perhaps just as importantly the societal norms, industry norms. If it's expected that union membership is a cultural standard, join. If the union advises certain, legal industrial action, then you follow it. You don't just go to the country, get what you want and piss off. Leave a place better than when you started and all.
That may very well be a prudent choice which the individual gets to make.
Union mandates fully apply to those belonging to the union rather than those on the street. I seriously doubt outfits like Atlas et al will be saved from themselves and their lousy management by a handful of Aussie E3s.
These things are symbiotic relationships where each side uses the other for some period. It's not personal, it's just business.
I mightily object to the inappropriate use of the term "scab" when talking about people taking these substandard positions. In the context of US airline labor, there are two ways a pilot can be a scab:
1) A pilot working for the airline elects to cross a picket line during a strike while his fellow pilots are withholding their services.
2) A pilot is hired from outside the airline to cross a picket line and fly during a strike when the pilots of that airline are withholding their services.
To brand people opting to endure a less-than-ideal circumstance in furtherance of their career is a wildly inappropriate use of the term. But it's been used that way before and will be again by those resorting to emotionalism.
The idealized notion that people should all just refuse to accept sub-legacy Ts & Cs regardless of the job in question is just that: Pie In The Sky. This entire website contains empirical evidence that this will not happen.
I hope this thread resumes normal speed.
bafanguy, My personal thoughts, if there are any sort of industrial issues going on between pilot and company, I would be steering clear. It's a bit ultruistic to think that a race to the bottom using pilots on Visas to shore up numbers when conditions are no where industry standard is just about numbers.
When you're a guest in a country it's up to the person to obey the law, rules, regs and perhaps just as importantly the societal norms, industry norms. If it's expected that union membership is a cultural standard, join. If the union advises certain, legal industrial action, then you follow it. You don't just go to the country, get what you want and piss off. Leave a place better than when you started and all.
When you're a guest in a country it's up to the person to obey the law, rules, regs and perhaps just as importantly the societal norms, industry norms. If it's expected that union membership is a cultural standard, join. If the union advises certain, legal industrial action, then you follow it. You don't just go to the country, get what you want and piss off. Leave a place better than when you started and all.
I'm in the ‘generation before’ and let’s be honest, - every generation tries to 'cut corners’.
Everyone works to progress up their chosen career ladder as best they can given the employment climate at the time.
I wish the E-3 visa with plentiful jobs was around 20 odd years ago when I was getting started. Back then with 1,500 hours I couldn’t even get into a piston-twin in Australia, now with 1,500 hours Aussies can go right into a Jet in the USA - so why wouldn’t they? The turn-around in opportunities is amazing and anyone would be mad not to capitalize on them. Criticizing people for doing so is idiotic. We don’t create the supply-and-demand employment metric, we can only position ourselves to gain from the climate at the time.
Not so many years ago, people in ‘my generation’ were criticized for buying type-ratings to boost their way up the ladder - so again, people in every generation seek to ‘cut-corners’ if they see it being to their advantage. That is a human thing, not a generational thing.
People who got started in the industry 20 years or so ago (like me) sometimes sound bitter towards the younger generation of pilots who do have far better opportunities than we had. But that’s life, suck it up! Just be thankful things are great now for all of us, and be happy for anyone who has good opportunities today.
In general people in the Left Seat aren’t fighting so much for the rights of FOs, but to protect their own position and income. Most Captains are beyond caring too much about the career opportunities for FOs, other than in terms of how the supply will affect their own employment conditions. Let’s face it, ultimately what each of us cares most about is our own income, conditions and employment opportunities.
Are you seriously saying the Aussie pilots employed as FOs in the USA don’t have the required knowledge and skills for the job? If you have evidence of that, you really should take it to the FAA - and if they don’t listen, then take your evidence to the media - this is going to be a huge scandal !!
Everyone works to progress up their chosen career ladder as best they can given the employment climate at the time.
I wish the E-3 visa with plentiful jobs was around 20 odd years ago when I was getting started. Back then with 1,500 hours I couldn’t even get into a piston-twin in Australia, now with 1,500 hours Aussies can go right into a Jet in the USA - so why wouldn’t they? The turn-around in opportunities is amazing and anyone would be mad not to capitalize on them. Criticizing people for doing so is idiotic. We don’t create the supply-and-demand employment metric, we can only position ourselves to gain from the climate at the time.
Not so many years ago, people in ‘my generation’ were criticized for buying type-ratings to boost their way up the ladder - so again, people in every generation seek to ‘cut-corners’ if they see it being to their advantage. That is a human thing, not a generational thing.
People who got started in the industry 20 years or so ago (like me) sometimes sound bitter towards the younger generation of pilots who do have far better opportunities than we had. But that’s life, suck it up! Just be thankful things are great now for all of us, and be happy for anyone who has good opportunities today.
In general people in the Left Seat aren’t fighting so much for the rights of FOs, but to protect their own position and income. Most Captains are beyond caring too much about the career opportunities for FOs, other than in terms of how the supply will affect their own employment conditions. Let’s face it, ultimately what each of us cares most about is our own income, conditions and employment opportunities.
Are you seriously saying the Aussie pilots employed as FOs in the USA don’t have the required knowledge and skills for the job? If you have evidence of that, you really should take it to the FAA - and if they don’t listen, then take your evidence to the media - this is going to be a huge scandal !!
Make no mistake, things at Atlas and co are BAD. Read the NTSB prelim report on the Houston 767 crash, the company is hiring anyone and will push them through. IOE here (US) is a couple trips, not the extended version one does in Oz where they actually teach you things.
Always trying cut corners this generation of young pilots. Regionals, part 135, scenic ops, instructing, or in Oz GA; that’s how a generation before you earn their hrs. Building experience flying a jumbo around the world is not it, you should have knowledge and skill before taking a job in these ops. THAT is what the pilot group (especially those in the left seat baby sitting you) are fighting for. YOUR mentality is whatever works to expedite your way some place else.
DUX,
Well, in a manner of speaking, I guess so, with the obvious boundaries. That's what people are going to do anyway and no amount of moral outrage will change it. This entire website demonstrates that.
People can amiably disagree about what other people should do.
Well, in a manner of speaking, I guess so, with the obvious boundaries. That's what people are going to do anyway and no amount of moral outrage will change it. This entire website demonstrates that.
People can amiably disagree about what other people should do.
Last edited by bafanguy; 5th Jan 2020 at 20:53.
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both Atlas and Southern are closed shop unions. Once you join the company you are automatically part of the union. There is no choice... As for calling us scabs, you clearly have no idea what a scab is...
I'm no labor historian but just to clear up the terminology, "closed shop" is illegal in the USA. You perhaps mean "union shop" ? Do you have "agency shop" provisions for those who don't want to be card-carrying union members (not sure why a person wouldn't just join) ?
A "closed shop" became illegal in the United States with the passage of the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947. A closely allied term is the "union shop." Under that arrangement, union membership is not required for employment, but a new employee must join the union within a specified period of time.
Closed Shop - United States History
https://www.u-s-history.com › pages
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As for calling us scabs, you clearly have no idea what a scab is...
GoJet Airlines has (re)posted their ad for E3s today, the 14th, on AFAP:
https://www.afap.org.au/pilot-jobs/p...FFICER%20PILOT
https://www.afap.org.au/pilot-jobs/p...FFICER%20PILOT
Last edited by bafanguy; 14th Jan 2020 at 13:04.
As Climb150 says, to fly as captain in an FAA Part 121 operation, a person must have a minimum of 1,000 hours in an FAA Part 121 operation. That would preclude an E3, regardless of experience, from entering a DEC job without that 1,000 hours.
