Sunstate pilot's Reps undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
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Oldmedow wins again "divide and conquer"
You would have thought the two pilot councils would have been sharing information and united for a better outcome for all the pilots employed on the DASH. It's not a competition
You would have thought the two pilot councils would have been sharing information and united for a better outcome for all the pilots employed on the DASH. It's not a competition
Flame suit on:
Is it really as gloomy as everyone makes out? For established crew there are some healthy gains, albeit at the expense of new hires. Now before everyone loses their cool, yes I was a fresh FO at one point, and without going into the EAA VS SSA debate, there are some pros I can see. As much as these aspiring new hires put their poker face on in the interview and swear 'no Qlink isn't just a stepping stone for me', the reality is the majority of people leave within the first 3 years. Even when they have bonds to pay out. Now there is nothing wrong with this, as it is only natural for a pilot to want to keep on moving up the chain. So now there will be no training wage, just full pay (well 55% of capt) from day one with allowances and duty hour allowance. And NO training bond so no obligation to stay around if something better comes along. At the moment guys are paying upwards of $10k to leave
Is it really as gloomy as everyone makes out? For established crew there are some healthy gains, albeit at the expense of new hires. Now before everyone loses their cool, yes I was a fresh FO at one point, and without going into the EAA VS SSA debate, there are some pros I can see. As much as these aspiring new hires put their poker face on in the interview and swear 'no Qlink isn't just a stepping stone for me', the reality is the majority of people leave within the first 3 years. Even when they have bonds to pay out. Now there is nothing wrong with this, as it is only natural for a pilot to want to keep on moving up the chain. So now there will be no training wage, just full pay (well 55% of capt) from day one with allowances and duty hour allowance. And NO training bond so no obligation to stay around if something better comes along. At the moment guys are paying upwards of $10k to leave
No flame Mav', just a history lesson.
When I started in the regionals 20 years ago pilots were paid full salary from day one. Pilots did not have to pay a bond. Pilots were treated with the respect deserving of their sacrifices and accomplishments thus far.
Don't be too quick to applaud management's minuscule moves back towards what is equitable. After 2 decades of taking their most valuable resource for granted, they are simply re-inventing the wheel and calling it their own!
They still however have a long way to go.
When I started in the regionals 20 years ago pilots were paid full salary from day one. Pilots did not have to pay a bond. Pilots were treated with the respect deserving of their sacrifices and accomplishments thus far.
Don't be too quick to applaud management's minuscule moves back towards what is equitable. After 2 decades of taking their most valuable resource for granted, they are simply re-inventing the wheel and calling it their own!
They still however have a long way to go.
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Firstly a correction – I tried to change the title to Pilot REPS but have been unable. Sorry about that. It should be pretty obvious, though, that my gripe is with the pilot reps.
Capt Stoobing
I’ve heard a lot of wild theories to the 7% but I’ve never heard that one before. But there is no way that the 7% was as a result of a 1999 deal between the 100/300. Your assertion that the 7% had anything to do with a Mainline agreement is also false, IMHO.
Mate, it’s not hard to work out who I am, even JennyTal could work it out. Email me on my Qantas email if you want to discuss further.
For those who are wondering, both groups are represented by the same union. And up until very recently there was good communication between the pilot committees and the respective EBA committees.
I think many of you are missing the point.
How many threads on here bemoan the fact that everywhere you look people are actively lowering T’s and C’s for other pilots because of short-term selfish greed? How many threads are there blaming J* pilots for the lowering of conditions because they accept crap pay deals? How many threads are there calling for pilots to act together to stop the rot?
Well, can there be a better situation than this? We have two pilot groups employed by the same entity. They fly the same aircraft out of each other’s bases, fly together, do sims together, etc. (Not uncommon to have a MEL CAPT/BNE FO, SYD/MQL FA’s to fly out of Sydney).
Look at the Flight Attendants: Sunstate FA EBA allows the FA’s to work up to five sectors after a min-rest overnight. The Eastern FA EBA only allows the FA’s to work up until 1300 on day two after a min rest overnight. Due to this reason alone, any new FA bases opened by Qlink are Sunstate FA bases. Perth and Adelaide are examples of this.
Late last year the company closed Perth base (EAA) and opened Adelaide (SSA) as pilot bases. Pilots were given the option: “Change base/Change to lower paid fleet/Change from Captain to FO or lose your job.”
Has there been a better time for the pilots to show unity and common purpose? Is this not the best time to show management that the two pilot groups will not be divided on anything? Is this not the best time to show to management that they can’t pit one pilot group against the other?
Apparently not. “I’m alright Jack” appears to be the name of the game.
Lotsta (aka Ian Oldmeadow, who was in the meeting) would have been laughing to management later. “See, I told you! Keep holding out and one of them will crack. The decision by the Sunstate reps will pay off for us for the next ten years!”
The sad thing is, is that this will probably get up. FO’s are leaving at a massive rate. The last I heard that there were 60+ Qlink pilots (EAA and SSA) either in the interview process or on active hold at Cathay. These guys will likely vote it up to get some back-pay.
(As displayed by some on this thread) some will vote YES for whatever justification that allows them to look themselves in the mirror, and “I’ll do okay out of this. F*ck the rest”.
IF it gets up, I hope that some of you who voted YES remember to look over at the FO you’re flying with and remember that his/her **** pay could have been better if you weren’t so greedy yourself.
DIVOSH!
Capt Stoobing
I’ve heard a lot of wild theories to the 7% but I’ve never heard that one before. But there is no way that the 7% was as a result of a 1999 deal between the 100/300. Your assertion that the 7% had anything to do with a Mainline agreement is also false, IMHO.
Mate, it’s not hard to work out who I am, even JennyTal could work it out. Email me on my Qantas email if you want to discuss further.
For those who are wondering, both groups are represented by the same union. And up until very recently there was good communication between the pilot committees and the respective EBA committees.
I think many of you are missing the point.
How many threads on here bemoan the fact that everywhere you look people are actively lowering T’s and C’s for other pilots because of short-term selfish greed? How many threads are there blaming J* pilots for the lowering of conditions because they accept crap pay deals? How many threads are there calling for pilots to act together to stop the rot?
Well, can there be a better situation than this? We have two pilot groups employed by the same entity. They fly the same aircraft out of each other’s bases, fly together, do sims together, etc. (Not uncommon to have a MEL CAPT/BNE FO, SYD/MQL FA’s to fly out of Sydney).
Look at the Flight Attendants: Sunstate FA EBA allows the FA’s to work up to five sectors after a min-rest overnight. The Eastern FA EBA only allows the FA’s to work up until 1300 on day two after a min rest overnight. Due to this reason alone, any new FA bases opened by Qlink are Sunstate FA bases. Perth and Adelaide are examples of this.
Late last year the company closed Perth base (EAA) and opened Adelaide (SSA) as pilot bases. Pilots were given the option: “Change base/Change to lower paid fleet/Change from Captain to FO or lose your job.”
Has there been a better time for the pilots to show unity and common purpose? Is this not the best time to show management that the two pilot groups will not be divided on anything? Is this not the best time to show to management that they can’t pit one pilot group against the other?
Apparently not. “I’m alright Jack” appears to be the name of the game.
Lotsta (aka Ian Oldmeadow, who was in the meeting) would have been laughing to management later. “See, I told you! Keep holding out and one of them will crack. The decision by the Sunstate reps will pay off for us for the next ten years!”
The sad thing is, is that this will probably get up. FO’s are leaving at a massive rate. The last I heard that there were 60+ Qlink pilots (EAA and SSA) either in the interview process or on active hold at Cathay. These guys will likely vote it up to get some back-pay.
(As displayed by some on this thread) some will vote YES for whatever justification that allows them to look themselves in the mirror, and “I’ll do okay out of this. F*ck the rest”.
IF it gets up, I hope that some of you who voted YES remember to look over at the FO you’re flying with and remember that his/her **** pay could have been better if you weren’t so greedy yourself.
DIVOSH!
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Whilst I don't disagree with your point about selfish greed, all the chest beating rhetoric in the world about underpaid FOs doesn't escape the fact that the company rejected the EAA proposal as being too costly. It was never going to happen. I can see why the EAA pilot council would want to make this about Sunstate considering they're now almost two years into an EBA negotiation with nothing to show.
The Sunstate proposal gives a baseline of what the company finds acceptable. There's nothing to say the end result won't lie somewhere between the two proposals if this gets voted down. What you can be assured of is you won't get anything the company doesn't agree to, no matter how many times you ask. History has proven that.
Whilst the new FO pay is terrible on both proposals I would suggest the removal of the bond is a fairly significant saving for those who do move on within the 3 years.
I'd be more concerned about the lifestyle aspects of the agreement. I wonder if the company's decision to withdraw their claim about removing work rules from the EBA was a neat strategy to take lifestyle and rostering issues off the table altogether.
The Sunstate proposal gives a baseline of what the company finds acceptable. There's nothing to say the end result won't lie somewhere between the two proposals if this gets voted down. What you can be assured of is you won't get anything the company doesn't agree to, no matter how many times you ask. History has proven that.
Whilst the new FO pay is terrible on both proposals I would suggest the removal of the bond is a fairly significant saving for those who do move on within the 3 years.
I'd be more concerned about the lifestyle aspects of the agreement. I wonder if the company's decision to withdraw their claim about removing work rules from the EBA was a neat strategy to take lifestyle and rostering issues off the table altogether.
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"the company rejected the EAA proposal as being too costly. It was never going to happen."
Negative. Try this theory. The company rejected the proposal because Sunstate Pilot reps weighed in at the 11th hour, after all the legwork had been done by the Eastern PC, with their proposal. All indications in the last several weeks were that it was about to be signed off and drafted for a vote. The Eastern PC from all reports were blind-sided last week.
We can argue all we like. Hopefully our colleagues up north will realise the bar needs to be at the very least maintained, preferably raised, but never lowered.
Negative. Try this theory. The company rejected the proposal because Sunstate Pilot reps weighed in at the 11th hour, after all the legwork had been done by the Eastern PC, with their proposal. All indications in the last several weeks were that it was about to be signed off and drafted for a vote. The Eastern PC from all reports were blind-sided last week.
We can argue all we like. Hopefully our colleagues up north will realise the bar needs to be at the very least maintained, preferably raised, but never lowered.
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If I have to take a pay cut in order to get an overall-better EBA over the line, so be it.
- But I hope my principles are strong enough never to ask someone else (already much lower paid) to take a pay cut just so I can get a better deal.
If Eastern pilots have to remove PIP from FO's wages to get a better EBA, so be it.
- But in that eventuality, I hope FO's vote away their own PIP, not just the PIP of the lowest-paid FO's who cannot yet vote by virtue of not yet being employees.
Regardless of Eastern/Sunstate dirty laundry, the idea of sacrificing future employees for the sake of current employees is contrary to the philosophy of unionism. If you're going to vote for it, at least understand you're voting against the principles that give you a Pilots' Council.
- But I hope my principles are strong enough never to ask someone else (already much lower paid) to take a pay cut just so I can get a better deal.
If Eastern pilots have to remove PIP from FO's wages to get a better EBA, so be it.
- But in that eventuality, I hope FO's vote away their own PIP, not just the PIP of the lowest-paid FO's who cannot yet vote by virtue of not yet being employees.
Regardless of Eastern/Sunstate dirty laundry, the idea of sacrificing future employees for the sake of current employees is contrary to the philosophy of unionism. If you're going to vote for it, at least understand you're voting against the principles that give you a Pilots' Council.
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Isn't it obvious?
Isn't it obvious?
You vote the first one down and get a better deal second time round.
Look at the recent negotiations of JQ and QF. Vote it down and more money magically appears overnight.
Nobody takes the first deal - isn't that what negotiation is all about?
You vote the first one down and get a better deal second time round.
Look at the recent negotiations of JQ and QF. Vote it down and more money magically appears overnight.
Nobody takes the first deal - isn't that what negotiation is all about?
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Lets consider long term here
And what of the day where all these "new hire FO's" outweigh in voting power those who are Qlink lifers.
Don't think they will give a second thought to voting away your privileges as a senior member of the company for a couple of extra bucks. We have seen it happen before.
Consider it an investment to protect your own lifestyle and conditions.
Don't think they will give a second thought to voting away your privileges as a senior member of the company for a couple of extra bucks. We have seen it happen before.
Consider it an investment to protect your own lifestyle and conditions.
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I'm a Sunstate FO and i think the proposed EBA is a disgrace. It is disgraceful to be undercutting Eastern in such a way. Why is it that as a pilot group we can be so stupid. Oldmeadow must be laughing all the way to the bank.
Gissing mentioned once in a group telephone conference that the "honeymoon" period of 2008-2013 was now over. Point taken, mining has declined, but if we were in the "honeymoon" period, aka the best Qlink is ever going to be, then how the hell is it that all we could manage was a 3% pay increase and a ****ty retention bonus that does nothing for our base pay whilst working harder?
Some of you are thinking "yeah but we cant ask for too much there is a balance, we don't want to go too far or we'll be all out work" Good point, but I'll quote Gissing in recent roadshow meeting-
"Although we don't disclose exactly how much Qlink makes, I can say the out of the Qantas Domestic profit of 220M, we don't make up the majority but we do come close to it". So basically he said we are just under 50% of that, say 100M profit. Sounds to me like things aren't as bad as what they will have you all believe.
I've always wondered why we as a pilot group have managed to stuff this up for so long but now i'm starting realise why. I ask many captains on the line what they think of the current EBA, trying to have a basic discussion, and 80% of the time i get a response which is borderline retarded. Mostly i get an answer of-
"I haven't really been following it, not sure".
My reply "Have you been reading the EBA updates, have u been following Eastern's progress, do you know where each negotiation is at"?
Their reply "No i have no idea about where Eastern is at and i dont care".
OR
"I dont like to get involved in EBA stuff, its all too political, i think our current deal is ok"
Yep the current deal is ok if you are a 10 year captain living in sunny cairns, with stuff all living expenses. But we must remember that its alot more difficult living in sydney or melbourne and we must stay strong with out Eastern counterparts. I really feel for Eastern on this, I cannot believe how badly we treat them when it comes to EBA time. We must show the company that we are united and only then will progress be made.
Final point- The sunstate team will try to tell us we are better of under this agreement. Bull****! My calculations have me earning the same as what i would have under the old agreement had there been no pay freeze. On top of this i will be working harder. Also i will be slapped with a command bond of $25,000. So taking into account inflation and the like, i'm actually taking a further pay cut, but that's not what they will have you believe at the upcoming roadshows. I really hope the the pilot group will vote no to this and show some unity with Eastern. In the eyes of the company we all like like a complete bunch of muppets. Rant over.
Gissing mentioned once in a group telephone conference that the "honeymoon" period of 2008-2013 was now over. Point taken, mining has declined, but if we were in the "honeymoon" period, aka the best Qlink is ever going to be, then how the hell is it that all we could manage was a 3% pay increase and a ****ty retention bonus that does nothing for our base pay whilst working harder?
Some of you are thinking "yeah but we cant ask for too much there is a balance, we don't want to go too far or we'll be all out work" Good point, but I'll quote Gissing in recent roadshow meeting-
"Although we don't disclose exactly how much Qlink makes, I can say the out of the Qantas Domestic profit of 220M, we don't make up the majority but we do come close to it". So basically he said we are just under 50% of that, say 100M profit. Sounds to me like things aren't as bad as what they will have you all believe.
I've always wondered why we as a pilot group have managed to stuff this up for so long but now i'm starting realise why. I ask many captains on the line what they think of the current EBA, trying to have a basic discussion, and 80% of the time i get a response which is borderline retarded. Mostly i get an answer of-
"I haven't really been following it, not sure".
My reply "Have you been reading the EBA updates, have u been following Eastern's progress, do you know where each negotiation is at"?
Their reply "No i have no idea about where Eastern is at and i dont care".
OR
"I dont like to get involved in EBA stuff, its all too political, i think our current deal is ok"
Yep the current deal is ok if you are a 10 year captain living in sunny cairns, with stuff all living expenses. But we must remember that its alot more difficult living in sydney or melbourne and we must stay strong with out Eastern counterparts. I really feel for Eastern on this, I cannot believe how badly we treat them when it comes to EBA time. We must show the company that we are united and only then will progress be made.
Final point- The sunstate team will try to tell us we are better of under this agreement. Bull****! My calculations have me earning the same as what i would have under the old agreement had there been no pay freeze. On top of this i will be working harder. Also i will be slapped with a command bond of $25,000. So taking into account inflation and the like, i'm actually taking a further pay cut, but that's not what they will have you believe at the upcoming roadshows. I really hope the the pilot group will vote no to this and show some unity with Eastern. In the eyes of the company we all like like a complete bunch of muppets. Rant over.
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Sunstate pilot's Reps undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
Why vote to reduce or remove PIP at all?? The Group is apparently "transformed" and will be making massive profits year-on-year for the foreseeable future.
B Scale
Voting up a reduced rate for new hires will only keep downward pressure on our T&C's. The company won't care how many FO's leave, they will recover the training cost with the reduced salary, and they will have them lined up at the door wanting in ready to sign on the dotted line.
We can do better than this.
We can do better than this.
Anyone know what is being traded for this new deal?
With the group forecasting profits, and a mass exodus/recruitment drive looming, I think this agreement is very much in the companies favour.
With profits coming, let's keep 100% PIP (as payment for the wage freeze)
With an exodus looming, offer a decent retention bonus.
65% for an FO should not be dropped
Open until 31st May guys
http://careers.virginaustralia.com/m...icer-australia
With the group forecasting profits, and a mass exodus/recruitment drive looming, I think this agreement is very much in the companies favour.
With profits coming, let's keep 100% PIP (as payment for the wage freeze)
With an exodus looming, offer a decent retention bonus.
65% for an FO should not be dropped
Open until 31st May guys
http://careers.virginaustralia.com/m...icer-australia
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noclue - I'm with you.
There is a mass exodus coming and if this EBA gets through then it will be even more so as current FO's will hesitate at the $25k command training bond, and new FO's will not hang around when they're paid 16% less than current FO's.
We should keep the PIP at 100% - it's totally at the company's discretion anyway, they can announce the percentage to get the payment they're happy to give.
FO's should remain at 65%, I fly with many FO's who carry the whole operation and are worth hanging on to. I'm not looking forward to that conversation with a new FO where they say "so how's my $10k looking in your bank account?"
I'd also like 9 days off per month to make amends for working nights and weekends but that may be a pipe dream. And don't start on the 6 weeks leave thing - the extra 2 weeks only make up for the 10 public holidays we lose.
There is a mass exodus coming and if this EBA gets through then it will be even more so as current FO's will hesitate at the $25k command training bond, and new FO's will not hang around when they're paid 16% less than current FO's.
We should keep the PIP at 100% - it's totally at the company's discretion anyway, they can announce the percentage to get the payment they're happy to give.
FO's should remain at 65%, I fly with many FO's who carry the whole operation and are worth hanging on to. I'm not looking forward to that conversation with a new FO where they say "so how's my $10k looking in your bank account?"
I'd also like 9 days off per month to make amends for working nights and weekends but that may be a pipe dream. And don't start on the 6 weeks leave thing - the extra 2 weeks only make up for the 10 public holidays we lose.
The reasons I'll be voting no:
1. No attempt made to retain the lifestyle a lot of us came here for. Management might think we're all here because we have to be but a lot of us have/had other options but turned them down to maintain a decent lifestyle. We chose lower pay in return for not being away on 3 day trips all the time. But now a lot of us have what must be the highest duty hours in Australia with the lowest pay to boot. If lifestyle is gone for good (as I suspect it is) then you'll need to do better with the compensation for being away from home or more time off.
2. $25,000 training bond for new Commands. Really? So just coming off a 3 year FO bond they now want to hold us hostage for another 2 years? That'll be over $50,000 and 5 years in training bonds for the current FO's. If a command bond has to be in the mix it would be a lot fairer to waive it for current FO's. Although I admit this would probably negate the point of it from the companies point of view.
3. New hire FO conditions. This is a pretty abysmal base pay. About $850/week after tax. No need to kick the people who aren't around to defend themselves. If the trade off for lower new FO pay was the removal of the training bond and training wage I say bring them back and keep base pay % as it is. It's not unreasonable to expect a new hire to stick around for three years. If they leave due to a better offer in that time then they will do so knowing they will need to pay their bond out. Leave the new hire bond in place and get rid of the command training bond.
As mentioned above, Qantaslink has more than pulled it's fair share of weight with regards to QF group performance. I suspect we have been the backbone of the group over the last few years while other sectors of the business were struggling. It's time we were rewarded for our efficiency now that the business is supposedly going to make decent profits.
1. No attempt made to retain the lifestyle a lot of us came here for. Management might think we're all here because we have to be but a lot of us have/had other options but turned them down to maintain a decent lifestyle. We chose lower pay in return for not being away on 3 day trips all the time. But now a lot of us have what must be the highest duty hours in Australia with the lowest pay to boot. If lifestyle is gone for good (as I suspect it is) then you'll need to do better with the compensation for being away from home or more time off.
2. $25,000 training bond for new Commands. Really? So just coming off a 3 year FO bond they now want to hold us hostage for another 2 years? That'll be over $50,000 and 5 years in training bonds for the current FO's. If a command bond has to be in the mix it would be a lot fairer to waive it for current FO's. Although I admit this would probably negate the point of it from the companies point of view.
3. New hire FO conditions. This is a pretty abysmal base pay. About $850/week after tax. No need to kick the people who aren't around to defend themselves. If the trade off for lower new FO pay was the removal of the training bond and training wage I say bring them back and keep base pay % as it is. It's not unreasonable to expect a new hire to stick around for three years. If they leave due to a better offer in that time then they will do so knowing they will need to pay their bond out. Leave the new hire bond in place and get rid of the command training bond.
As mentioned above, Qantaslink has more than pulled it's fair share of weight with regards to QF group performance. I suspect we have been the backbone of the group over the last few years while other sectors of the business were struggling. It's time we were rewarded for our efficiency now that the business is supposedly going to make decent profits.
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Rumour has it another 20 to be recruited into one of the big 2. They see and appreciate the value of well trained QL pilots.
Hopefully that will be reflected in the next intake
Back to topic. Have none of you heard of the saying 'don't sell your unborn children'.? That's what you'll do if you vote a B scale. As someone wrote one day the unborn kids will be the majority and see what happens to the A scalers then
That is all.
Hopefully that will be reflected in the next intake
Back to topic. Have none of you heard of the saying 'don't sell your unborn children'.? That's what you'll do if you vote a B scale. As someone wrote one day the unborn kids will be the majority and see what happens to the A scalers then
That is all.
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There is a spreadsheet floating around that shows that a new FO under the proposed SSA agreement will be $35,000 worse off compared to a current FO over the 3 years of the agreement (and that includes the DHA rubbish!). And where are these new FOs supposed to go with a useless Dash 8 endorsement and a CPL? Removing the training costs/bond is disguising the real issue here.
But, if the EAA proposal was to be implemented, the same new FO is "only" $18,000 worse off, but they start making the ground back 2 years into the agreement and upwards from there. All for a 4% retention payment to existing crew instead of 5%.
1%. That's pretty much what it comes down to.
This proposal is ingeniously aimed directly at the current captains - look at the seniority list, there's 134 captains at the moment on a total list of 243. Thanks Mr Oldmeadow.
But, if the EAA proposal was to be implemented, the same new FO is "only" $18,000 worse off, but they start making the ground back 2 years into the agreement and upwards from there. All for a 4% retention payment to existing crew instead of 5%.
1%. That's pretty much what it comes down to.
This proposal is ingeniously aimed directly at the current captains - look at the seniority list, there's 134 captains at the moment on a total list of 243. Thanks Mr Oldmeadow.
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Mr negotiator, what would your good friend ...Think of this deal, I fear not much.
(RIP)
There is a lot of reasons listed here to vote Against this Deal, I urge you all to do so.
(RIP)
There is a lot of reasons listed here to vote Against this Deal, I urge you all to do so.