Sunstate pilot's Reps undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
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Sunstate pilot's undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
Back in 2005 the Sunstate pilot Committee undercut the Eastern pilots regarding flying the Q400. Eastern wanted 10% more money for flying a 50% bigger aircraft but the Sunstate proposal won the day and they agreed to 7% more.
I’ll admit right here that the initial Q400’s were probably always going to be going to Sunstate due to other reasons, but they didn’t know that at the time and they offered 7% in the belief that that was what was going to get the new equipment to them instead of “The Mexicans”.
Fast forward to now. Over the past few months our management has demonstrated in the most convincing way possible that unity and agreement between the two pilot groups is paramount.
But yesterday the Sunstate pilot EBA team disregarded that and undercut the Eastern pilots AGAIN!
Yes, the VERY SAME PEOPLE who were responsible for the 7% debacle have decided that it was more important for them to get an agreement over the line “before Eastern do” than to try for more.
(It has been a bragging point by some of the Sunstate EBA team that they will get an agreement signed before Eastern).
In a nutshell:
The Eastern team were holding out for:
• 9 days off per roster (instead of 8 ½)
• $10.00 p/h DHA from 1 Jan 15
• FO’s pay at 55/60/65% of a Q400 Captain for years 1/2/3
The Sunstate team settled for:
• 8 ½ days off per roster
• $9.30 DHA from 1 Jan 16
• FO’s being on 55% of "current fleet" Captain wages for the first three years of employment
Last lot of EBA’s the Eastern team worked hard to get some things the Sunnies guys already had, plus the retention package, which put us ahead of the Sunstate EBA. The Sunnies guys said “We’ll have what the Eastern guys got.” And that put both EBA’s pretty much on a par.
This lot of EBA’s, that was obviously too hard for the Sunstate guys. THIS TIME, they looked at what the Eastern team had negotiated, and then decided to undercut what we’re asking for. This has now put the Eastern team into a bind, as we still don’t have our deal yet.
The Eastern negotiators now have to canvass their pilot group in light of these new developments. Their job has been made that much harder because their Queensland colleagues have just agreed to a lesser deal.
The Sunnies agreement shafts any new hires.
A new hire gets 55% of a Captains wage for three years. (Note: that’s 55% of a Q300 Captains wage if they’re on the 300). Also they won’t get the PIP until checked to line as a Captain.
So to any of you people looking at Qlink for a future career: You can pretty much expect to be employed by Sunstate and based in Brisbane (the company is quite adept at moving pilots around: It’s common for Melbourne based crews to fly out of Cairns, Brisbane based crews to fly out of Sydney, etc).
You can expect to be paid a base salary of $55k (ish) for three years while your “Mexican” colleagues (who you’ll see in the southern crew rooms and who will be visiting your crew rooms) will be earning up to 15k more doing the same job and flying the same equipment.
You can expect any new bases opened to be Sunstate bases, such as the recently opened Adelaide base.
Unless the Eastern team is pressured into a similar outcome, which would mean that any new Eastern hires will be subject to the same measures.
Good luck living in Sydney on 55k!
All because certain people thought of themselves first and everybody else can get screwed!
DIVOSH!
I’ll admit right here that the initial Q400’s were probably always going to be going to Sunstate due to other reasons, but they didn’t know that at the time and they offered 7% in the belief that that was what was going to get the new equipment to them instead of “The Mexicans”.
Fast forward to now. Over the past few months our management has demonstrated in the most convincing way possible that unity and agreement between the two pilot groups is paramount.
But yesterday the Sunstate pilot EBA team disregarded that and undercut the Eastern pilots AGAIN!
Yes, the VERY SAME PEOPLE who were responsible for the 7% debacle have decided that it was more important for them to get an agreement over the line “before Eastern do” than to try for more.
(It has been a bragging point by some of the Sunstate EBA team that they will get an agreement signed before Eastern).
In a nutshell:
The Eastern team were holding out for:
• 9 days off per roster (instead of 8 ½)
• $10.00 p/h DHA from 1 Jan 15
• FO’s pay at 55/60/65% of a Q400 Captain for years 1/2/3
The Sunstate team settled for:
• 8 ½ days off per roster
• $9.30 DHA from 1 Jan 16
• FO’s being on 55% of "current fleet" Captain wages for the first three years of employment
Last lot of EBA’s the Eastern team worked hard to get some things the Sunnies guys already had, plus the retention package, which put us ahead of the Sunstate EBA. The Sunnies guys said “We’ll have what the Eastern guys got.” And that put both EBA’s pretty much on a par.
This lot of EBA’s, that was obviously too hard for the Sunstate guys. THIS TIME, they looked at what the Eastern team had negotiated, and then decided to undercut what we’re asking for. This has now put the Eastern team into a bind, as we still don’t have our deal yet.
The Eastern negotiators now have to canvass their pilot group in light of these new developments. Their job has been made that much harder because their Queensland colleagues have just agreed to a lesser deal.
The Sunnies agreement shafts any new hires.
A new hire gets 55% of a Captains wage for three years. (Note: that’s 55% of a Q300 Captains wage if they’re on the 300). Also they won’t get the PIP until checked to line as a Captain.
So to any of you people looking at Qlink for a future career: You can pretty much expect to be employed by Sunstate and based in Brisbane (the company is quite adept at moving pilots around: It’s common for Melbourne based crews to fly out of Cairns, Brisbane based crews to fly out of Sydney, etc).
You can expect to be paid a base salary of $55k (ish) for three years while your “Mexican” colleagues (who you’ll see in the southern crew rooms and who will be visiting your crew rooms) will be earning up to 15k more doing the same job and flying the same equipment.
You can expect any new bases opened to be Sunstate bases, such as the recently opened Adelaide base.
Unless the Eastern team is pressured into a similar outcome, which would mean that any new Eastern hires will be subject to the same measures.
Good luck living in Sydney on 55k!
All because certain people thought of themselves first and everybody else can get screwed!
DIVOSH!
Last edited by Di_Vosh; 2nd Aug 2015 at 01:54. Reason: Accuracy - This isn't the sunnies pilots ATM
It's got to get up first and there are A LOT of very unhappy campers at the moment. Well on the 400 anyway. Classic guys couldn't be happier with their limited amount of work.
I personally feel that DHA on it's own is a flawed system and won't increase motivation to work when you're getting flogged like the 400 guys are. A lower DHA combined with overtime pay would be much more appealing.
Take this scenario for example;
A 400 Captain has 120 duty hours rostered and a Classic Captain has 80. The 400 Cptn. is working 33% more than the classic driver. With DHA alone, the 400 Cptn. will earn $372 extra for the month. An FO will make $240 more. Hardly a motivating pay off for the rubbish lifestyle.
To me, an overtime system (like every other airline in the country has) would make more sense. If we took the system VARA use and applied it to the above scenario the Cptn. working more would earn a more reasonable amount.
I think the VARA guys get overtime for anything over 59 hours flying and I believe the FO rate is $60. I'm not 100% sure what the Cptn. rate is (let's assume it's about $100). Applying those figures to the above, our hard working 400 Cptn. (lets say they're flying 80 hours on the roster) will now receive an extra $2100 a month. A much more reasonable return for the extra work.
Overtime would also see a massive decrease in sick days for the guys who are getting flogged. Who wants to call in sick just as the going gets good post 59 hours?
I also notice that the worry about being away from base sitting in hotel rooms all day hasn't been addressed. Didn't the Jetstar guys just get DTA approved for the whole time they're away? As it stands, there is nothing to discourage the company from having us sit in hotels all day twiddling our thumbs.
Lifestyle is the reason a lot of folks stayed at Qlink. If they wanted to get flogged and be away from home all the time they would have gone somewhere that paid you for the luxury. Until the above concerns are addressed a lot will be voting no.
I personally feel that DHA on it's own is a flawed system and won't increase motivation to work when you're getting flogged like the 400 guys are. A lower DHA combined with overtime pay would be much more appealing.
Take this scenario for example;
A 400 Captain has 120 duty hours rostered and a Classic Captain has 80. The 400 Cptn. is working 33% more than the classic driver. With DHA alone, the 400 Cptn. will earn $372 extra for the month. An FO will make $240 more. Hardly a motivating pay off for the rubbish lifestyle.
To me, an overtime system (like every other airline in the country has) would make more sense. If we took the system VARA use and applied it to the above scenario the Cptn. working more would earn a more reasonable amount.
I think the VARA guys get overtime for anything over 59 hours flying and I believe the FO rate is $60. I'm not 100% sure what the Cptn. rate is (let's assume it's about $100). Applying those figures to the above, our hard working 400 Cptn. (lets say they're flying 80 hours on the roster) will now receive an extra $2100 a month. A much more reasonable return for the extra work.
Overtime would also see a massive decrease in sick days for the guys who are getting flogged. Who wants to call in sick just as the going gets good post 59 hours?
I also notice that the worry about being away from base sitting in hotel rooms all day hasn't been addressed. Didn't the Jetstar guys just get DTA approved for the whole time they're away? As it stands, there is nothing to discourage the company from having us sit in hotels all day twiddling our thumbs.
Lifestyle is the reason a lot of folks stayed at Qlink. If they wanted to get flogged and be away from home all the time they would have gone somewhere that paid you for the luxury. Until the above concerns are addressed a lot will be voting no.
Last edited by Fonz121; 16th May 2015 at 05:10. Reason: Graaaammar
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Let's just be clear, nothing has been voted up yet. The Sunnies 'negotiating' team have only agreed in principle with something to table to the troops. The pilots still have the power to knock it back and play for a better deal, but whether the majority choose to value their worth more than their representatives do is the $55,000 question. Enjoy your 4 day trips.
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Who would have thought that some senior Sunstate captains (the negotiating team) would agree to a B-scale contract for new hires? I'm surprised & disappointed. Hopefully my colleagues and friends in Sunstate bases vote no to that idea.
Ok.....I will bite!
DiVosh,
The original Q400 deal was for flying an aircraft 35% bigger, i.e. the Q300 to Q400. The original deal to encompass the 300 / 100 pay was done in 1999 with the agreement to an extra year increment in the EBA.
I also know that 'NEITHER' pilot group were going to get much more than 7% as an industrial precedent was set by the QF 737 with the NG introduction.
Like you DiVosh I'm sure we are both long term employees of our respective companies, and I'm sure we would have even flown together or shared a simulator along the way.
I would hate for the next few weeks to end up in an episode of airing our dirty laundry from both sides.
The only winner in that situation would be the trolls and the company.
Vote for you and your situation, consider your colleagues- present and future and seek out the wisdom of the people your trust. Put no faith in debates where people will not put their name to the debate.
Peter
The original Q400 deal was for flying an aircraft 35% bigger, i.e. the Q300 to Q400. The original deal to encompass the 300 / 100 pay was done in 1999 with the agreement to an extra year increment in the EBA.
I also know that 'NEITHER' pilot group were going to get much more than 7% as an industrial precedent was set by the QF 737 with the NG introduction.
Like you DiVosh I'm sure we are both long term employees of our respective companies, and I'm sure we would have even flown together or shared a simulator along the way.
I would hate for the next few weeks to end up in an episode of airing our dirty laundry from both sides.
The only winner in that situation would be the trolls and the company.
Vote for you and your situation, consider your colleagues- present and future and seek out the wisdom of the people your trust. Put no faith in debates where people will not put their name to the debate.
Peter
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New Hire FO Pay
So for the first three years of employment. you will make less than a Mcdonalds Manager and now just fall within the low income bracket for a Centrelink low income support payment..."Oh Brave New World"
I fear this will set an example for the rest of the Aussie Industry and we as professionals have a responsibility to maintain our conditions and lifestyle, lest we end up like America where you live off food stamps, commute long distances and live in crashpads.
I fear this will set an example for the rest of the Aussie Industry and we as professionals have a responsibility to maintain our conditions and lifestyle, lest we end up like America where you live off food stamps, commute long distances and live in crashpads.
Last edited by Humbly Reserved; 16th May 2015 at 10:56.
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Well done to the EAA pilot(s) airing their gripes about their counterparts north of the border.
With reference to your log of claims for the EAA EBA, how is that going? Has it not been the best part of 2 years since your EBA expired??
Forgive me if I am ill informed with the facts of your EBA campain, the truth is, I just could not give a
Good luck with the negotiations, hopefully you reach an agreement before SSA are back at the table with the intent to undercut their friends south of the border!
With reference to your log of claims for the EAA EBA, how is that going? Has it not been the best part of 2 years since your EBA expired??
Forgive me if I am ill informed with the facts of your EBA campain, the truth is, I just could not give a
Good luck with the negotiations, hopefully you reach an agreement before SSA are back at the table with the intent to undercut their friends south of the border!
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Gen y sub 500 hr pilots whinging about being in the right seat of a Q400. Shut the **** up and be glad you didn't have to spend 5 years in the bush getting paid 75 percent less than the new EBA is offering. Vote yes.
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Anyone voting yes to this clearly does not care for the future F/O's joining the group.
DeafStar. Please remember that not all new F/O's are not sub 500hr pilots and some have done their time out bush.
At 55% of Captains wage, someone flying a King Air, piston twin or caravan etc for a reputable company would be taking a pay cut to join the company.
New hires will not be bonded or required to pay for endorsement cost. Sounds like an invitation to get some multi crew time and bugger off to something better quick smart, although with the rumour that Jetstar have been asked not to take on any Qlink guys could make things more difficult.
With the lifestyle disappearing, crap wage, no progression and pretty much guaranteed to be joining the company on the sunstate eba. Why would you?
DeafStar. Please remember that not all new F/O's are not sub 500hr pilots and some have done their time out bush.
At 55% of Captains wage, someone flying a King Air, piston twin or caravan etc for a reputable company would be taking a pay cut to join the company.
New hires will not be bonded or required to pay for endorsement cost. Sounds like an invitation to get some multi crew time and bugger off to something better quick smart, although with the rumour that Jetstar have been asked not to take on any Qlink guys could make things more difficult.
With the lifestyle disappearing, crap wage, no progression and pretty much guaranteed to be joining the company on the sunstate eba. Why would you?
Because these days, if you don't have an ATPL, there isn't too many places to go.
The offer looks like it's geared to those who want to stay. If you're just in it until something better comes along then management aren't going to pay you a cent more than they need to, nor will they charge you anything to leave.
Maybe if the EAA council had approached the process differently, it wouldn't be taking so long and they would've been first to put out an in-principle agreement.
If it gets up, there will still be no shortage of applicants. They just won't be around for long!
The offer looks like it's geared to those who want to stay. If you're just in it until something better comes along then management aren't going to pay you a cent more than they need to, nor will they charge you anything to leave.
Maybe if the EAA council had approached the process differently, it wouldn't be taking so long and they would've been first to put out an in-principle agreement.
If it gets up, there will still be no shortage of applicants. They just won't be around for long!
Sources tell me that the FRMS is also off the table. In the too hard basket as far as management is concerned?
If that's true, then unless someone pulls a rabbit out of the hat by April 30 next year, it's CAO48.1. In broad terms Both Easterns and Sunnies will have to find 30-40 more pilots just to service the current schedules! As well as greater layovers on Min rest.
Relax boys. The last thing you need to worry about is signing anything at this stage. Wait a little longer and you'll have some real leverage!
If that's true, then unless someone pulls a rabbit out of the hat by April 30 next year, it's CAO48.1. In broad terms Both Easterns and Sunnies will have to find 30-40 more pilots just to service the current schedules! As well as greater layovers on Min rest.
Relax boys. The last thing you need to worry about is signing anything at this stage. Wait a little longer and you'll have some real leverage!
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Sunstate pilots undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
They're already having trouble crewing flights. Why jump at this? It's already been a long time since both EBAs expired. What's a little while longer?
Jump on the PIA Express to Slow Down Town. Yep.
Jump on the PIA Express to Slow Down Town. Yep.
Bottums Up
I make no comment on the EBA negotiations of which I know nowt but;
is not too dissimilar to when I became a Nord Effo some 24 years ago.
At 55% of Captains wage, someone flying a King Air, piston twin or caravan etc for a reputable company would be taking a pay cut to join the company.