Sunstate pilot's Reps undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
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EAA/SSA - WTF?
United you stand to negotiate a decent EBA for all.
Divided? You'll screw each other.
Might be time to take a deep breath, a step back and have a good look at each other. Same people, same aircraft, same job, same pack of @rseholes you work for.
An outsiders perspective?
Pull your collective heads in.
Negotiate from the same plan.
Negotiate for the future of yourselves and those yet to join.
Anything else smacks of self-interest and ego.
Divided? You'll screw each other.
Might be time to take a deep breath, a step back and have a good look at each other. Same people, same aircraft, same job, same pack of @rseholes you work for.
An outsiders perspective?
Pull your collective heads in.
Negotiate from the same plan.
Negotiate for the future of yourselves and those yet to join.
Anything else smacks of self-interest and ego.
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Well, here goes. NO!
On the eve of a vote that will in one way or another change our airline, I felt inspired to write down for those who are still making their decision, the reasons for my NO vote, and give those who may have already swayed in the opposite direction something to consider. Don't get me wrong, I am one of the many long serving Captains at Sunstate Airlines who stand to make a tidy cash sum if the ballot is resolved in the yes, however, despite this, I will still be voting NO and here is why.
Firstly, the remuneration for new hire First Officers.
I choose to use my voice to speak up for those who have none, it is un-Australian not to. New hire First Officers (possible future friends who may one day be deep in the heat of battle with the rest of our crew) are already the lowest paid pilots in our business, I won’t be the person who votes to pay them less; I certainly won’t be agreeing to a package that will have new hires joining on lower conditions than what already exists.
While I agree the salary package for those joining with 2000hrs+ and an ATPL is reasonable, for those who don't, it just isn't enough money to do the same job as those who do. Are WE really going to penalise those who cannot otherwise realistically fulfil those arbitrary requirements? The ability to join with an ATPL for those coming up through the GA ranks has effectively been taken away by the new Part 61, so in time, all new hires will be subjected to the package that we agreed to on their behalf. The company knows this, thus the abolishment of bond for new hires; if we think that this condition can be renegotiated come next EBA, we need to stop fooling ourselves.
I put myself in their shoes, probably having worked just as hard as I did to get where they are, on the cusp of the coveted first airline job, and now their future colleagues (possibly future mates) are going to vote on whether they are worth less in the job than they are. If I were them I would have a rather sour taste in my mouth if the vote came out "Yes".
Everyone at Sunstate was a new hire once, and many of us put in a lot of long, hard yards to get here, I won’t be voting yes to make the road longer and harder for these pilots trying to get ahead. At a recent roadshow, the attitude, "I did it hard too!" was displayed as a response to the dissatisfaction of the T's and C's that new hires will join under; that does not fly with me. I personally could not have supported myself and my family on the proposed package with any quality of life, and I can’t in good conscience ask someone else to.
Just because I copped the wooden spoon and "It did me no harm", does not mean I hit my children, let alone HARDER.
Secondly, the PIP.
Other pilot groups within the Qantas group are getting a rate of 6%, we are already only getting half.
I'm certainly not happy with the proposed "half of half"!
While the PIP hasn't been a good "payer" for the recent past, WE have all worked hard to turn this company around, and to give away the benefit of our hard work at the eleventh hour when things are just getting good does not make sense to me. Then, to take away ALL PIP benefit for new hires until the day they get command (and a $25000 bond) seems ludicrous. I cannot fly the aircraft without them, let alone safely and efficiently, so why should they not reap whatever benefit is forthcoming from the safe and efficient operation they they are a critical part of?
Thirdly, DHA and lifestyle (time with family)
While I believe the DHA is a step in the right direction, it in no way discourages the company from having me sit idle in a motel room, away from home, for hours on end in the middle of a three day trip. A DTA would be a different matter, and even better would be some higher recognition of greater duty hours (overtime etc).
As for the "letter of agreement" Re; Reserve utilisation and rostering issues , I have no faith it is truly enforceable in a way that will see an appreciable, positive change to our rostered operations. These letters do not form part of our agreement in anyway and are at best a statement of intention, with sufficient "outs" as and when the company sees fit.
That, I think, covers the primary issues for me, but just a couple of words on a personal note before I once again fade to the back of the crew bus.
We MUST realise that this EBA (warts and all) does not exist in a vacuum and won't become become our (and all future Sunstate pilots) T's and C's unless WE say so. A yes vote is FULL ACCEPTANCE of ALL items and a signal that we are happy with ALL T's and C's. Are we so forgetful and nearsighted that we ignore all that has gone before and the clear and present negative outcomes that would result from an acceptance of this offer? I for one will not so quickly be forgetting the implications that this agreement may have on our colleauges down south, or the rude and callous treatment dumped on the Q300 drivers late last year. Good luck all, sleep well.
Firstly, the remuneration for new hire First Officers.
I choose to use my voice to speak up for those who have none, it is un-Australian not to. New hire First Officers (possible future friends who may one day be deep in the heat of battle with the rest of our crew) are already the lowest paid pilots in our business, I won’t be the person who votes to pay them less; I certainly won’t be agreeing to a package that will have new hires joining on lower conditions than what already exists.
While I agree the salary package for those joining with 2000hrs+ and an ATPL is reasonable, for those who don't, it just isn't enough money to do the same job as those who do. Are WE really going to penalise those who cannot otherwise realistically fulfil those arbitrary requirements? The ability to join with an ATPL for those coming up through the GA ranks has effectively been taken away by the new Part 61, so in time, all new hires will be subjected to the package that we agreed to on their behalf. The company knows this, thus the abolishment of bond for new hires; if we think that this condition can be renegotiated come next EBA, we need to stop fooling ourselves.
I put myself in their shoes, probably having worked just as hard as I did to get where they are, on the cusp of the coveted first airline job, and now their future colleagues (possibly future mates) are going to vote on whether they are worth less in the job than they are. If I were them I would have a rather sour taste in my mouth if the vote came out "Yes".
Everyone at Sunstate was a new hire once, and many of us put in a lot of long, hard yards to get here, I won’t be voting yes to make the road longer and harder for these pilots trying to get ahead. At a recent roadshow, the attitude, "I did it hard too!" was displayed as a response to the dissatisfaction of the T's and C's that new hires will join under; that does not fly with me. I personally could not have supported myself and my family on the proposed package with any quality of life, and I can’t in good conscience ask someone else to.
Just because I copped the wooden spoon and "It did me no harm", does not mean I hit my children, let alone HARDER.
Secondly, the PIP.
Other pilot groups within the Qantas group are getting a rate of 6%, we are already only getting half.
I'm certainly not happy with the proposed "half of half"!
While the PIP hasn't been a good "payer" for the recent past, WE have all worked hard to turn this company around, and to give away the benefit of our hard work at the eleventh hour when things are just getting good does not make sense to me. Then, to take away ALL PIP benefit for new hires until the day they get command (and a $25000 bond) seems ludicrous. I cannot fly the aircraft without them, let alone safely and efficiently, so why should they not reap whatever benefit is forthcoming from the safe and efficient operation they they are a critical part of?
Thirdly, DHA and lifestyle (time with family)
While I believe the DHA is a step in the right direction, it in no way discourages the company from having me sit idle in a motel room, away from home, for hours on end in the middle of a three day trip. A DTA would be a different matter, and even better would be some higher recognition of greater duty hours (overtime etc).
As for the "letter of agreement" Re; Reserve utilisation and rostering issues , I have no faith it is truly enforceable in a way that will see an appreciable, positive change to our rostered operations. These letters do not form part of our agreement in anyway and are at best a statement of intention, with sufficient "outs" as and when the company sees fit.
That, I think, covers the primary issues for me, but just a couple of words on a personal note before I once again fade to the back of the crew bus.
We MUST realise that this EBA (warts and all) does not exist in a vacuum and won't become become our (and all future Sunstate pilots) T's and C's unless WE say so. A yes vote is FULL ACCEPTANCE of ALL items and a signal that we are happy with ALL T's and C's. Are we so forgetful and nearsighted that we ignore all that has gone before and the clear and present negative outcomes that would result from an acceptance of this offer? I for one will not so quickly be forgetting the implications that this agreement may have on our colleauges down south, or the rude and callous treatment dumped on the Q300 drivers late last year. Good luck all, sleep well.
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Couldn't agree more Arcs
Unfortunately we've been put in a position where the only way that can happen is for SSA to vote the proposed agreement down (hard!) and push for a better deal alongside EAA.
Several posters in favour have suggested it's a "fair" deal. Primarily this would appear to based on a comparison between the proposed package and the existing one. "There are a couple of little sweeteners in there, so I'm a tiny bit better off; can't expect much more out of the company so let's call it 'fair' and move on."
Take out the array of efficiencies the company has gouged out of the pilot group over the past 3 years (optimiser, load app etc), and you'd have to start believing this company owes you something better. Look at how quickly the company moved on a couple of conditions in order to force this deal through and lock half their pilots down, and you can't possibly think that this is the best deal possible!
We all want better conditions for pilots - it's been the bleat of the whole industry since I've been in it. At some point every single one of us needs to put some skin in the game if we're ever going to get there.
Several posters in favour have suggested it's a "fair" deal. Primarily this would appear to based on a comparison between the proposed package and the existing one. "There are a couple of little sweeteners in there, so I'm a tiny bit better off; can't expect much more out of the company so let's call it 'fair' and move on."
Take out the array of efficiencies the company has gouged out of the pilot group over the past 3 years (optimiser, load app etc), and you'd have to start believing this company owes you something better. Look at how quickly the company moved on a couple of conditions in order to force this deal through and lock half their pilots down, and you can't possibly think that this is the best deal possible!
We all want better conditions for pilots - it's been the bleat of the whole industry since I've been in it. At some point every single one of us needs to put some skin in the game if we're ever going to get there.
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We all want better conditions for pilots - it's been the bleat of the whole industry since I've been in it. At some point every single one of us needs to put some skin in the game if we're ever going to get there.
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Exactly. No employment group in any industry would end up with an EBA that all members are completely happy with. Of course the Wharfies did but that ended in tears a decade later.
An outcome where either the Company or the Employees are overjoyed at an EBA result will not be sustainable. Both sides should be reasonably happy with most of it but peeved off with a quarter of an EBA. Therefore, a little compromise by both sides.
Is it perfect? Of course not. But do you find the conditions for the next 3 years just so terrible that you can't handle it - then vote NO. Otherwise, vote YES.
The Jetstar debacle 6 months ago was a completely different kettle of fish. The Union did not endorse the deal. It was $hitty deal, and voted down accordingly.
If a NO vote comes in, maybe a better deal is offered, maybe not but this is not a replay of that scenario.
An outcome where either the Company or the Employees are overjoyed at an EBA result will not be sustainable. Both sides should be reasonably happy with most of it but peeved off with a quarter of an EBA. Therefore, a little compromise by both sides.
Is it perfect? Of course not. But do you find the conditions for the next 3 years just so terrible that you can't handle it - then vote NO. Otherwise, vote YES.
The Jetstar debacle 6 months ago was a completely different kettle of fish. The Union did not endorse the deal. It was $hitty deal, and voted down accordingly.
If a NO vote comes in, maybe a better deal is offered, maybe not but this is not a replay of that scenario.
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Hi Dunda,
Good for you for sitting down and going through the entire EBA. That is the only way one can make an informed decision.
Most of what you are asking is self evident if you jump on the AFAP website and go through the Easterns Updates.
Easterns do not appear to have a document that is "in agreement", hence the PIA ballot.
In Easterns update 42, dated 05JUN15, the following is written
In update 43, they assess the option of accepting our proposed agreement, and decide against it based on their calculations.
So "an equivalent agreement" has already been offered to Easterns, they have assessed it and said no, why ?, I believe update 46 was written to answer exactly why.
I believe their update 46 answers many of your questions, have you seen it ?
As many above suggested, much more can be achieved with legal cooperation between the two pilot groups.
Jets, I think you answered that one for yourself
.
One last point, you are not voting on which EBA to select, the Eastern EBA or the Sunstate EBA.
P.S. I am certain if you emailed the EAA PC with your remaining questions, they would talk to you. Because of the emotional behaviour of a couple of the posters above, you might get a better response one on one. It's also a fair bet adults would not want to buy into defaming a peer, even if it is from behind a pseudonym.
Good for you for sitting down and going through the entire EBA. That is the only way one can make an informed decision.
Most of what you are asking is self evident if you jump on the AFAP website and go through the Easterns Updates.
Easterns do not appear to have a document that is "in agreement", hence the PIA ballot.
In Easterns update 42, dated 05JUN15, the following is written
Today they revealed that they went to XXXXXX XXXXXXX who directed them to respond with only two options.
These are:
1.A roll-over agreement; or
2.An equivalent agreement to the Sunstate proposal.
These are:
1.A roll-over agreement; or
2.An equivalent agreement to the Sunstate proposal.
In update 43, they assess the option of accepting our proposed agreement, and decide against it based on their calculations.
So "an equivalent agreement" has already been offered to Easterns, they have assessed it and said no, why ?, I believe update 46 was written to answer exactly why.
I believe their update 46 answers many of your questions, have you seen it ?
As many above suggested, much more can be achieved with legal cooperation between the two pilot groups.
Jets, I think you answered that one for yourself
.One last point, you are not voting on which EBA to select, the Eastern EBA or the Sunstate EBA.
P.S. I am certain if you emailed the EAA PC with your remaining questions, they would talk to you. Because of the emotional behaviour of a couple of the posters above, you might get a better response one on one. It's also a fair bet adults would not want to buy into defaming a peer, even if it is from behind a pseudonym.
Last edited by Josh Cox; 21st Jul 2015 at 05:39. Reason: missing letter
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How does the votes add up?
I have a genuine question to ask this Forum.
Can this EBA be voted up if?
1) 51% of the sunstate group votes yes to the EBA.
or
2) there is a greater YES vote than NO vote.
I ask due to some murmurs I've been hearing about some SSA pilots who will not be voting in this EBA for whatever reason and was curious as to what effect this will have?
HR
Can this EBA be voted up if?
1) 51% of the sunstate group votes yes to the EBA.
or
2) there is a greater YES vote than NO vote.
I ask due to some murmurs I've been hearing about some SSA pilots who will not be voting in this EBA for whatever reason and was curious as to what effect this will have?
HR
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Thanks Dunda.
Many take what is happening here on this thread and potentially elsewhere far too personally, and as if it is some sort of competition, us and them.
I could not care less what someone actually votes, "yes" or "no".
It is my hope that when they do so, it is armed with all the information to make an informed decision.
It is also my hope everyone votes, apathy is crippling for workplace moral.
Many take what is happening here on this thread and potentially elsewhere far too personally, and as if it is some sort of competition, us and them.
I could not care less what someone actually votes, "yes" or "no".
It is my hope that when they do so, it is armed with all the information to make an informed decision.
It is also my hope everyone votes, apathy is crippling for workplace moral.
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Reality Check
Everyone is focused on the EBA, but the EBA is the effect, not the cause.
If anyone looks back on many years of commentary on this subject, one thing is crystal clear. The common thread in unsatisfactory EBA’s is that the same team of Sunnies pilots have negotiated them all, and you keep voting them up! So stop whinging about the EBA.
Are you a Sunnies pilot and are unhappy with the EBA? Then vote some pilots onto the Pilot Council who are more representative of the pilot group, and will actually take you seriously, rather than bagging Eastern negotiators and prancing around openly boasting about how they don’t care about you!
Until you get a new negotiation team, you are howling at the moon. The things that should have been part of the negotiations (frozen ATPLs getting 65%, overtime added to DHA as compensation for loss of lifestyle) will remain firmly in the ‘never ever going to happen’ category.
When it comes to EBAs, unless you change your negotiation team, nothing will change. So, nominate and vote for change on the pilot council and EBA negotiation team, or stop whinging.
If anyone looks back on many years of commentary on this subject, one thing is crystal clear. The common thread in unsatisfactory EBA’s is that the same team of Sunnies pilots have negotiated them all, and you keep voting them up! So stop whinging about the EBA.
Are you a Sunnies pilot and are unhappy with the EBA? Then vote some pilots onto the Pilot Council who are more representative of the pilot group, and will actually take you seriously, rather than bagging Eastern negotiators and prancing around openly boasting about how they don’t care about you!
Until you get a new negotiation team, you are howling at the moon. The things that should have been part of the negotiations (frozen ATPLs getting 65%, overtime added to DHA as compensation for loss of lifestyle) will remain firmly in the ‘never ever going to happen’ category.
When it comes to EBAs, unless you change your negotiation team, nothing will change. So, nominate and vote for change on the pilot council and EBA negotiation team, or stop whinging.
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Maybe the silent majority believe that the Sunnies EBA team actually do an OK job?
Sunnies people not happy with the EBA?
I guess we will have an answer to that next week.
Sunnies people not happy with the EBA?
I guess we will have an answer to that next week.
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If you are happy with the negotiating team, great.
My advice would be to vote for them again.
There is nothing better in a democracy than having the right people represent you.
My comments are nothing more than democracy 101. The EBA is the product of a democratic process. If you are unhappy, then vote for someone else when you get the opportunity.
But, the silent majority have either not voted (why not) or,the majority who bothered to vote, voted for the current council/negotiators, and they have done their best.
There is no point complaining about how the EBA has turned out.
I think this EBA is acceptable, but not perfect, and it will very probably get up.
My advice would be to vote for them again.
There is nothing better in a democracy than having the right people represent you.
My comments are nothing more than democracy 101. The EBA is the product of a democratic process. If you are unhappy, then vote for someone else when you get the opportunity.
But, the silent majority have either not voted (why not) or,the majority who bothered to vote, voted for the current council/negotiators, and they have done their best.
There is no point complaining about how the EBA has turned out.
I think this EBA is acceptable, but not perfect, and it will very probably get up.
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This is 55% of the new increased pay, therefore they are no worse off compared to a current FO.
They are worse off compared to a current FO, wages increased by 3% with retention rolled into base salary.
They are worse off in comparison with every other pilot in the Qantas group.
I would not vote for a B-scale contract. Happily, my AFAP negotiators haven't asked me to.
Emirates/GCAA have just dropped the requirement for jet time: as per new FCL Part ZFT can now be done for candidates with 1500+ hrs on T/Pabove 10t/19 seats who hold an ICAO ATPL. $AU means start pay now $11k per month. Sandpit anyone? Discuss.....
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Yes, and more so seen through the vicious no campaign from the vocal minority and voted with their heads. It's a good deal, it always was and the vote shows that.
Eastern, you're on your own journey, best of luck, genuinely.
Eastern, you're on your own journey, best of luck, genuinely.
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Hey clear to land
Not quite champ! Look at the EK recruitment page, still need 2000hrs multi crew jet.
Not quite champ! Look at the EK recruitment page, still need 2000hrs multi crew jet.
Last edited by bangbounceboeing; 28th Jul 2015 at 11:43. Reason: Doh