Sunstate pilot's Reps undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
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For a second I thought they had finally realised they have 'not so active' hold file of 20 + applicants from 2012/13. 
Feel for you lads, take it as an opportunity to seek other gigs.
Feel for you lads, take it as an opportunity to seek other gigs.
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I will be voting no.
I will be voting no.
I encourage anyone, especially captains, who are not selfish and not willing to lower the bar for the industry to also vote no.
I hope that the captains who think this is a good deal can see past their own greed and realise the FOs are being screwed. But as someone already mentioned, the cpts outnumber the FOs.
We have already given up our lifestyle, and 1.5 years of standard pay increases. Why must we give up anything more?
As an FO I will not be accepting a command if I am to be bonded for another 2 years after I have just been bonded for 3 years.
The new hires can't stand up for themselves.... Let's stand together! There is no reason for this pay cut.
FO dta of around $6 is laughable. Our time away from our families and young children is just as hard. We get just as fatigued. Our lifestyle is just as important. As per the other allowances, it should be the same as the cptn.
I hope we all communicate with each other at work and vote down this **** deal!
I encourage anyone, especially captains, who are not selfish and not willing to lower the bar for the industry to also vote no.
I hope that the captains who think this is a good deal can see past their own greed and realise the FOs are being screwed. But as someone already mentioned, the cpts outnumber the FOs.
We have already given up our lifestyle, and 1.5 years of standard pay increases. Why must we give up anything more?
As an FO I will not be accepting a command if I am to be bonded for another 2 years after I have just been bonded for 3 years.
The new hires can't stand up for themselves.... Let's stand together! There is no reason for this pay cut.
FO dta of around $6 is laughable. Our time away from our families and young children is just as hard. We get just as fatigued. Our lifestyle is just as important. As per the other allowances, it should be the same as the cptn.
I hope we all communicate with each other at work and vote down this **** deal!
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dude
As I understand it they will need to issue a vacancy bid so current employees get first shot subject to freezes etc. After that they can place any new recruits into the remaining slots to achieve base establishment numbers.
But then who knows whats next......
SN
As I understand it they will need to issue a vacancy bid so current employees get first shot subject to freezes etc. After that they can place any new recruits into the remaining slots to achieve base establishment numbers.
But then who knows whats next......
SN
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The only reason I can see for the DHA is to provide a pay rise without the company being seen to provide a pay rise. With that in mind, it makes sense for the Captain DHA rate to be higher than for FOs. Otherwise FOs would be getting a higher percentage pay increase than Captains.
Would you also propose that the flight attendant DTA rate is increased to be the same as Captains then? Their time away from home is just as hard as the Captain's too. Or perhaps everyone takes a cut to be somewhere in the middle? We all know it just doesn't work like that. The other allowances you're talking about are agreed meal rates and have nothing to do with the value of your time.
FO dta of around $6 is laughable. Our time away from our families and young children is just as hard. We get just as fatigued. Our lifestyle is just as important. As per the other allowances, it should be the same as the cptn.
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This must make you happy? What is a Virgin 737 Captain paid again?
SPICEJET GIVES BOMBARDIER Q400 PILOTS A SALARY HIKE TO KEEP POACHERS AT BAY
Budget airline SpiceJet, in the middle of a turnaround, has decided to bring the salaries of its Bombardier Q400 pilots on par with those who fly Boeing 737 planes.
Airline sources said one reason to increase pilot salaries was to counter the increased attempts by Gulf carriers such as Etihad and Qatar Airways to poach highly-skilled commanders.
... The move, which comes on the tenth anniversary of the Ajay Singh-promoted airline, is likely to cost the airline about Rs 50 lakh a month. SpiceJet has about 100 Q400 pilots in a total of 450; the decision to buy Bombardiers was taken when Kalanithi Maran was at the helm of the airline.
The industry’s average monthly salary for senior commanders is Rs 5.5 lakh.
“This was a long standing grievance of our Q400 pilots and the decision to increase their salary was taken by our new promoter Ajay Singh who thought it was a very valid and genuine demand. A pilot is a pilot and it does not matter which aircraft he or she flies. This difference (in salaries) shouldn’t have been there from the very beginning,” one official said.
SpiceJet has also announced the creation of a pilot benevolent fund.
https://www.facebook.com/omniflyers?fref=photo
SPICEJET GIVES BOMBARDIER Q400 PILOTS A SALARY HIKE TO KEEP POACHERS AT BAY
Budget airline SpiceJet, in the middle of a turnaround, has decided to bring the salaries of its Bombardier Q400 pilots on par with those who fly Boeing 737 planes.
Airline sources said one reason to increase pilot salaries was to counter the increased attempts by Gulf carriers such as Etihad and Qatar Airways to poach highly-skilled commanders.
... The move, which comes on the tenth anniversary of the Ajay Singh-promoted airline, is likely to cost the airline about Rs 50 lakh a month. SpiceJet has about 100 Q400 pilots in a total of 450; the decision to buy Bombardiers was taken when Kalanithi Maran was at the helm of the airline.
The industry’s average monthly salary for senior commanders is Rs 5.5 lakh.
“This was a long standing grievance of our Q400 pilots and the decision to increase their salary was taken by our new promoter Ajay Singh who thought it was a very valid and genuine demand. A pilot is a pilot and it does not matter which aircraft he or she flies. This difference (in salaries) shouldn’t have been there from the very beginning,” one official said.
SpiceJet has also announced the creation of a pilot benevolent fund.
https://www.facebook.com/omniflyers?fref=photo
"A pilot is a pilot and it does not matter which aircraft he or she flies".
Imagine if you could earn 400K a year flying a C152 around a circuit doing ab-initio training, instead of being an A380 Capt. I've probably opened a can of worms here but flying a Q400 and B737 are totally different things.
Imagine if you could earn 400K a year flying a C152 around a circuit doing ab-initio training, instead of being an A380 Capt. I've probably opened a can of worms here but flying a Q400 and B737 are totally different things.
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Without attempting to minimise my current role as training captain on a jet, my time flying the Dash 8 was without a doubt the most challenging and in many cases most rewarding flying l have ever done!
I'd go so far as to say, the overwhelming majority of ex RPT turboprop crews l have flown with (from Australia, NZ and PNG) are some of the most professional in the business and certainly deserve a fair pay deal.
So after having a lapsed EBA for about a year, you're going to reward the company for that with a longer 3.5 year EBA. We can assume there won't be another "in-principle agreement" until a year after the new one expires end of 2018. So end of 2019. But that's Christmas. So early 2020. And to get one over the line so expeditiously we'll see FOs on 45% of Captan's pay. Meanwhile the peak of any bargaining power will be in around 2 years when mainline is sucking pilots up desperately.
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Very amusing part of the Sunstate EBA Campaign update on 27th.
"We are also aware of some misinformation being spread on various on-line forums regarding the proposed agreement. Again, we simply ask that all pilots read the final package once it is released and attend the roadshows before determining their vote"
Somehow I think they're gonna make their proposal look really nice.
Anyway, your Sunstate negotiator (there was only one in the room when the deal was struck), while knowing the details of the Eastern proposal, has given away several things:
a) We're already aware of the 55% for 3 years garbage.
b) The Sunstate DHA starts at $9.30 (Captain) and $6.00 (FO) increasing to $10 & $6.50 at the end of the 3 to 4 year agreement. The company was the one who initially put forward $10.00 and $6.50 from the start of the Eastern agreement.
c) No Productivity Incentive Payment for new FOs until they are a Captain. Awesome for them, considering 5 to 10 years before the upgrade.
d) Forfeited 6 months of backpay. Yep 6 months gone.
Wonder what kind of incentives the company offered Rod.
"We are also aware of some misinformation being spread on various on-line forums regarding the proposed agreement. Again, we simply ask that all pilots read the final package once it is released and attend the roadshows before determining their vote"
Somehow I think they're gonna make their proposal look really nice.
Anyway, your Sunstate negotiator (there was only one in the room when the deal was struck), while knowing the details of the Eastern proposal, has given away several things:
a) We're already aware of the 55% for 3 years garbage.
b) The Sunstate DHA starts at $9.30 (Captain) and $6.00 (FO) increasing to $10 & $6.50 at the end of the 3 to 4 year agreement. The company was the one who initially put forward $10.00 and $6.50 from the start of the Eastern agreement.
c) No Productivity Incentive Payment for new FOs until they are a Captain. Awesome for them, considering 5 to 10 years before the upgrade.
d) Forfeited 6 months of backpay. Yep 6 months gone.
Wonder what kind of incentives the company offered Rod.
Last edited by NowThatsFunny; 1st Jun 2015 at 07:32. Reason: Removed the word "personal" in last line so as not to suggest any corruption.
Just a question-Do the Sunstate AFAP reps negotiating this deal have any "favours" bestowed upon them such as EMVS leasing over and above the normal stated provisions of the current EA? Are they anything other than line pilots? e.g. are they Check and Training pilots holding that position at the good will of the management?
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NTF, great post.
I also read with amusement:
So what “misinformation” are we talking about?
If we compare what Eastern are still negotiating and what the Sunstate negotiator(s) have agreed to...
EAA are after 9 days off. Sunstate rep(s) have agreed to 8 1/2
Right now the EAA/SSA guys are the hardest working and lowest paid pilots in the QF group. Not uncommon to see 70plus stick/130 duty in recent rosters. Not uncommon to have pilots regularly flying 18+ days out of a 28 day roster. Reserve days are considered work days (you just don’t know what you’re doing yet). Why would anyone agree to an EA that didn’t have more dedicated time off?
EAA are after $10.00/$6.50 DHA, increasing during the EA. Sunstate rep(s) have agreed to $9.30/$6.00 DHA, increasing to $10.00/$6.50 during the EA
Are you Sunstate guys aware that the COMPANY suggested an initial $10.00/$6.50 amounts when they first proposed the DHA? Nice one, let’s let the company know that they’re being too generous.
New hire FO rates: EAA are after year one 55% of a Q400 captain, year two 60% of a Q400 Captain, year three onwards 65% of a Captain of your aircraft type. Sunstate rep(s) have agreed to 55% of your aircraft type Captain for the first three years.
The fact is that new a new hire Sunstate FO will be approximately $15,000.00 worse off over three years than their equivalent Eastern FO.
So where is the misinformation? All the above is from the AFAP website! Or is the AFAP website one of the “online forums” you’re disparaging?
As I’ve stated previously, this is NOT the time for the two pilot groups to be undercutting one another.
Looking at the points (above) re: days off and DHA: IMHO, the DHA is an admission by the company that the days of 6-8 reserve days per roster are gone for good. They’re going to work us much harder and this is their way of compensation. What possible reason is there for either pilot group to “out-do” each other (by agreeing to less) in order to get an agreement over the line?
For as long as I’ve been in the company the two pilot groups have been trying to move closer together and communicate better in order that an event like the Q400 introduction doesn’t happen again. This SEEMED to be happening and I was of the understanding that there was better communication and understanding between the pilot groups. It certainly was the case when I was on the EAA committee.
Which leads me to...
(Disclaimer: Note that the below are questions only and are not intended to spread any "Misinformation")
If I were Sunstate pilot attending a roadshow I’d be asking the following questions to the EBA team:
How many EBA negotiators were in the room when the “in principal” agreement was struck?
Were any AFAP industrial reps in the room when the “in principal” agreement was struck?
Were any EBA negotiators or AFAP reps present via telephone conference?
If the answer to the first question was less than three, and the answer to the second and third question was “No”, then I’d be asking WTF?
Just saying.
DIVOSH!
I also read with amusement:
We are also aware of some misinformation being spread on various on-line forums regarding the proposed agreement.
If we compare what Eastern are still negotiating and what the Sunstate negotiator(s) have agreed to...
EAA are after 9 days off. Sunstate rep(s) have agreed to 8 1/2
Right now the EAA/SSA guys are the hardest working and lowest paid pilots in the QF group. Not uncommon to see 70plus stick/130 duty in recent rosters. Not uncommon to have pilots regularly flying 18+ days out of a 28 day roster. Reserve days are considered work days (you just don’t know what you’re doing yet). Why would anyone agree to an EA that didn’t have more dedicated time off?
EAA are after $10.00/$6.50 DHA, increasing during the EA. Sunstate rep(s) have agreed to $9.30/$6.00 DHA, increasing to $10.00/$6.50 during the EA
Are you Sunstate guys aware that the COMPANY suggested an initial $10.00/$6.50 amounts when they first proposed the DHA? Nice one, let’s let the company know that they’re being too generous.
New hire FO rates: EAA are after year one 55% of a Q400 captain, year two 60% of a Q400 Captain, year three onwards 65% of a Captain of your aircraft type. Sunstate rep(s) have agreed to 55% of your aircraft type Captain for the first three years.
The fact is that new a new hire Sunstate FO will be approximately $15,000.00 worse off over three years than their equivalent Eastern FO.
So where is the misinformation? All the above is from the AFAP website! Or is the AFAP website one of the “online forums” you’re disparaging?
As I’ve stated previously, this is NOT the time for the two pilot groups to be undercutting one another.
Looking at the points (above) re: days off and DHA: IMHO, the DHA is an admission by the company that the days of 6-8 reserve days per roster are gone for good. They’re going to work us much harder and this is their way of compensation. What possible reason is there for either pilot group to “out-do” each other (by agreeing to less) in order to get an agreement over the line?
For as long as I’ve been in the company the two pilot groups have been trying to move closer together and communicate better in order that an event like the Q400 introduction doesn’t happen again. This SEEMED to be happening and I was of the understanding that there was better communication and understanding between the pilot groups. It certainly was the case when I was on the EAA committee.
Which leads me to...
(Disclaimer: Note that the below are questions only and are not intended to spread any "Misinformation")
If I were Sunstate pilot attending a roadshow I’d be asking the following questions to the EBA team:
How many EBA negotiators were in the room when the “in principal” agreement was struck?
Were any AFAP industrial reps in the room when the “in principal” agreement was struck?
Were any EBA negotiators or AFAP reps present via telephone conference?
If the answer to the first question was less than three, and the answer to the second and third question was “No”, then I’d be asking WTF?
Just saying.
DIVOSH!
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Not uncommon to see 70plus stick/130 duty in recent rosters.
IMHO, the DHA is an admission by the company that the days of 6-8 reserve days per roster are gone for good. They’re going to work us much harder and this is their way of compensation.
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comparing a c152 instructor to an a320 FO. Similar pay isnt it?
They are out there team!