Sunstate pilot's Reps undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
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I am in complete aggreance with DiVosh and I work for Sunstate. Everything DiVosh has said makes perfect sense, it's unfortunate some of my peers don't see it that way. I am completely dissatisfied with the Sunstate negotiating team. At the roadshow I asked two questions, both of which the negotiating team did not have an answer. Why? Because it is obvious they don't fully understand what is in the document that they have negotiated.
I'm also interested to know why is it that the deputy chief pilot was at the roadshow meeting? Is this normal at such a meeting?
I'll sum up for the Eastern folk why it is that the unbelievable happens and such a large majority continue voting yes.
I think there are 35% that were always going to vote yes.
Then there are 15% that are going to vote no.
That leaves 50% who are "swinging" voters. The reps understand this so they set up the roadshow like a really well run political campaign, whereby there is only positivity in the room. They sell it like its the best thing since sliced bread. They tell us to only listen to the facts. Its all in the delivery and it's done very well. If you ask a question your are shot down and your question is dismissed with very little discussion. To make the meeting go more smoothly and to keep the positive vibes going, the deputy chief pilot has a presence at the back of the room, just to make sure that there are no "outlandish" remarks or negative questions.
So through that process they jag about another 40% into a yes vote, and low and behold you have an EBA voted up.
To the guys that voted it up to take the money and run, you are a disgrace, but it's no surprise to me. It's apparent that Sunstate pilots in general have very little idea when it comes to industrial relations. (Or life in general for that matter).
I'm also interested to know why is it that the deputy chief pilot was at the roadshow meeting? Is this normal at such a meeting?
I'll sum up for the Eastern folk why it is that the unbelievable happens and such a large majority continue voting yes.
I think there are 35% that were always going to vote yes.
Then there are 15% that are going to vote no.
That leaves 50% who are "swinging" voters. The reps understand this so they set up the roadshow like a really well run political campaign, whereby there is only positivity in the room. They sell it like its the best thing since sliced bread. They tell us to only listen to the facts. Its all in the delivery and it's done very well. If you ask a question your are shot down and your question is dismissed with very little discussion. To make the meeting go more smoothly and to keep the positive vibes going, the deputy chief pilot has a presence at the back of the room, just to make sure that there are no "outlandish" remarks or negative questions.
So through that process they jag about another 40% into a yes vote, and low and behold you have an EBA voted up.
To the guys that voted it up to take the money and run, you are a disgrace, but it's no surprise to me. It's apparent that Sunstate pilots in general have very little idea when it comes to industrial relations. (Or life in general for that matter).
We don’t consider it acceptable to be rostered to fly 20 out of 28 days, nor do we consider it acceptable to do multi-day trips where either day 2 or day 3 is a 10 plus hour day following a min-rest overnight.
Never thought I'd say it, but Jetstar are hiring you say?
It's going to be hard to look the new guys in the eyes, and suggest to go to dinner on an overnight wondering whether or not they can afford it.
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Do you people realise that you handed power to Di-vosh the moment that you responded to his initial inflammatory post? Had you ignored him, his subsequent posts would have been wilder, more inflammatory, and far more entertaining in order to illicit a response.
I'd score this thread highly for entertainment value, but at some point you have to realise that you come off as a bunch of drunks trying to glass each other on the street. For the sake of any shred of professionalism that still exists in this industry, please find a private forum in which to glass each other. No one gives a rodents rectum about your dirty laundry, and even the most inept HR and management types know how to Google.
I'd score this thread highly for entertainment value, but at some point you have to realise that you come off as a bunch of drunks trying to glass each other on the street. For the sake of any shred of professionalism that still exists in this industry, please find a private forum in which to glass each other. No one gives a rodents rectum about your dirty laundry, and even the most inept HR and management types know how to Google.
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Get over it
Di-Vosh and some of the others clearly have way too much time on their hands. It is sad that they can still be so emotional and vocal.
The Sunstate EBA has been voted up.
We get it that you dont agree, but its done now.
If you spent half as much time worry about Eastern reaching an agreed position than you have slandering and insulting your brethren up north - then perhaps you would have an agreement?
Time to move on.
Just a thought?
The Sunstate EBA has been voted up.
We get it that you dont agree, but its done now.
If you spent half as much time worry about Eastern reaching an agreed position than you have slandering and insulting your brethren up north - then perhaps you would have an agreement?
Time to move on.
Just a thought?
IO is a master tactician and he has played you lot off the break. The sad part is that it is not the first time. The yes vote has has ended any progress that PIA may have made so forget it and live to fight another day. Disunity wins yet again.
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Well, well, well! The company has offered us the Sunstate deal. After months of slagging Sunstate it's high time we showed our mettle. To fold now will make us the laughing stock of the whole industry! We went in hard with PIA only to walk out of the meeting with it shoved up our 
Come on guys, let's show them what we really think and keep our heads up high. We HAVE to vote NO to this disgusting deal, not held to ransom by the powers that be.
Come on guys, let's show them what we really think and keep our heads up high. We HAVE to vote NO to this disgusting deal, not held to ransom by the powers that be.
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To fold now will make us the laughing stock of the whole industry!
We HAVE to vote NO to this disgusting deal, not held to ransom by the powers that be.
The differences between the two proposals are not particularly significant. A few hundred bucks DHA and a several grand for some new hire FOs. Sure you may not like it, but how much longer do you want this to drag on for?
Looks like they found themselves a steady supply of FO's to save 10% on.
Anyway, I'm not trying to be inflammatory. Vote for what you think is right. I just don't think everyone getting on the 'no' bandwagon to prove a point is necessarily going to have the desired effect. Make no mistake, the rest of the industry mostly don't care.
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To Eastern, congratulations on the passing of your EBA, with over 91% approval.
Thanks for the commitment you demonstrated, in consulting and including all your pilots in the process.
You guys rock. Well done and all the best.
Thanks for the commitment you demonstrated, in consulting and including all your pilots in the process.
You guys rock. Well done and all the best.
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Well, the Eastern vote is in and (no surprises) it was voted up 91.8%.
This should in no way be seen as the Eastern pilot group endorsing the proposed package.
Far from it.
What it is, is Eastern pilots recognizing that we’ve been beaten. It’s a recognition that we’ll take what’s on offer because that’s all we’re going to get.
Unlike Sunstate pilots, management left Eastern pilots in no doubt that we’d have our backpay removed if we voted NO. Backpay, added to the recent QF wide “bonus”, meant that a 7 year Eastern Captain had around $16,000.00 under threat.
The draft Eastern EBA was “Sunstate equivalent” conditions placed into the Eastern EBA. Since the Sunnies pilots voted their sub-standard EBA up, Qlink management felt that they only had to offer the same to Eastern pilots, take it or leave it.
We had a strong vote for PIA, but those of us who’ve been around long enough will remember what happened last time Eastern voted NO (anyone who wasn’t around then was reminded). And everyone should remember what happened to the Sunstate engineers.
IMHO, if the Eastern pilots voted NO, we’d be made an example of by QF management. Several months later we’d get an EBA very little improved from the current crap the Sunstate pilots accepted, and we’d lose back-pay. Looks like over 90% of Eastern pilots had the same opinion.
Unfortunately, when your pay isn’t that great to begin with, principals and morals have to sometimes take second place to the reality of paying off mortgages, bills, school fees, etc.
And there you have it: Ego and short-term greed drove the Sunstate EBA team to agree to a crap deal. The crap deal was voted up by greedy and short-sighted pilots.
That crap deal has now been FORCED ONTO A DIFFERENT PILOT GROUP.
IMHO, the precedent set here will have far reaching implications. To name a few…
Sunstate pilots have successfully isolated themselves. I’d be surprised if there will be any co-operation between Eastern and Sunstate groups within the next ten years. There is no trust. Any joint co-operation will be futile because management will expect the Sunstate side to accept any deal for less than what Eastern are willing to accept, which will then be forced upon Eastern pilots.
Second, another B-scale has successfully been implemented within the Qantas group. In future Qlink EBAs this will be considered by management to be a starting point for further expansion, rather than something to be corrected. Expect any future payrises for Captains to be funded by the extension of the 55% FO wage for more than three years.
This may impact other Qantas pilot groups, as the FO "B-scale" will be presented to other pilot groups as an “Industry Standard”.
Thirdly, this result will have re-invigorated QF management love of Oldmeadow Consulting. Other pilot groups within the Qantas group can expect to see Ian across the table for the entirety of their negotiations.
Jetstar, QF shorthaul and Eastern just about got rid of Oldmeadow. Sunstate let him back in.
And lastly how about the AFAP? They’ve been seen as a scapegoat in all this by many of the pilots affected. There are both Sunnies and Eastern pilots looking elsewhere for membership. Ironic that an AFAP Vice President is party to a decision that undermines the union.
But what would I know?
I’m just “Pig Ignorant” according to such luminaries as FUEL-OFF and DISGRUNTLED POULTRY.
Funny, but I’ve spoken with Sunnies pilots (as well as Eastern pilots who’ve flown with Sunnies pilots) and the lack of knowledge regarding their own EBA was staggering.
Sunstate Captains who thought it was a crap EBA but voted yes. “Why?” “I just did.”
Sunstate Captains who voted YES because they would get a great pay rise, but couldn’t say how much except that “It was big.”
Sunstate pilots who think that the Eastern EBA result meant that the Eastern pilots thought it was a good deal.
But if you want an example of the sheer ignorance of a Sunstate pilot, just read this:
Clearly written by someone who simply does not understand how industrial negotiations are conducted at Qlink. Someone who’s never sat down opposite Qlink management in a negotiation. Someone who’s not read any of the Eastern updates. Someone who hasn’t got a clue.
If you’d bothered to read my other posts, you’d know that I’m not on the EBA team or Eastern council, though I’ve been on both in the past. I can tell you for a fact that only one Eastern EBA team member has posted on this thread (and only once) and that the number of other posts by Eastern council members is under five.
Seriously mate, you only embarrass yourself when you write stuff like that.
Psycho Joe (who compared us with his friends) and Chazdat raised a good point regarding taking this argument elsewhere, but there is nowhere else.
Not QREWROOM. I’d be surprised if even half the Eastern/Sunstate pilots had QREWROOM ID’s, and the Qlink forum averages about one post per year.
Josh Cox started a combined EBA forum on FB, but there wasn’t much discussion on it. People had to post under their real names so it made it difficult for some people to hold a rational discussion. There were accusations of vindictiveness and harassment against Josh and myself, but personally I didn’t see any of it. There were a couple of Trolls. Once they were removed, no-one really bothered posting.
That left Prune.
If you don’t like, don’t read. Simple.
DIVOSH!
This should in no way be seen as the Eastern pilot group endorsing the proposed package.
Far from it.
What it is, is Eastern pilots recognizing that we’ve been beaten. It’s a recognition that we’ll take what’s on offer because that’s all we’re going to get.
Unlike Sunstate pilots, management left Eastern pilots in no doubt that we’d have our backpay removed if we voted NO. Backpay, added to the recent QF wide “bonus”, meant that a 7 year Eastern Captain had around $16,000.00 under threat.
The draft Eastern EBA was “Sunstate equivalent” conditions placed into the Eastern EBA. Since the Sunnies pilots voted their sub-standard EBA up, Qlink management felt that they only had to offer the same to Eastern pilots, take it or leave it.
We had a strong vote for PIA, but those of us who’ve been around long enough will remember what happened last time Eastern voted NO (anyone who wasn’t around then was reminded). And everyone should remember what happened to the Sunstate engineers.
IMHO, if the Eastern pilots voted NO, we’d be made an example of by QF management. Several months later we’d get an EBA very little improved from the current crap the Sunstate pilots accepted, and we’d lose back-pay. Looks like over 90% of Eastern pilots had the same opinion.
Unfortunately, when your pay isn’t that great to begin with, principals and morals have to sometimes take second place to the reality of paying off mortgages, bills, school fees, etc.
And there you have it: Ego and short-term greed drove the Sunstate EBA team to agree to a crap deal. The crap deal was voted up by greedy and short-sighted pilots.
That crap deal has now been FORCED ONTO A DIFFERENT PILOT GROUP.
IMHO, the precedent set here will have far reaching implications. To name a few…
Sunstate pilots have successfully isolated themselves. I’d be surprised if there will be any co-operation between Eastern and Sunstate groups within the next ten years. There is no trust. Any joint co-operation will be futile because management will expect the Sunstate side to accept any deal for less than what Eastern are willing to accept, which will then be forced upon Eastern pilots.
Second, another B-scale has successfully been implemented within the Qantas group. In future Qlink EBAs this will be considered by management to be a starting point for further expansion, rather than something to be corrected. Expect any future payrises for Captains to be funded by the extension of the 55% FO wage for more than three years.
This may impact other Qantas pilot groups, as the FO "B-scale" will be presented to other pilot groups as an “Industry Standard”.
Thirdly, this result will have re-invigorated QF management love of Oldmeadow Consulting. Other pilot groups within the Qantas group can expect to see Ian across the table for the entirety of their negotiations.
Jetstar, QF shorthaul and Eastern just about got rid of Oldmeadow. Sunstate let him back in.
And lastly how about the AFAP? They’ve been seen as a scapegoat in all this by many of the pilots affected. There are both Sunnies and Eastern pilots looking elsewhere for membership. Ironic that an AFAP Vice President is party to a decision that undermines the union.
But what would I know?
I’m just “Pig Ignorant” according to such luminaries as FUEL-OFF and DISGRUNTLED POULTRY.
Funny, but I’ve spoken with Sunnies pilots (as well as Eastern pilots who’ve flown with Sunnies pilots) and the lack of knowledge regarding their own EBA was staggering.
Sunstate Captains who thought it was a crap EBA but voted yes. “Why?” “I just did.”
Sunstate Captains who voted YES because they would get a great pay rise, but couldn’t say how much except that “It was big.”
Sunstate pilots who think that the Eastern EBA result meant that the Eastern pilots thought it was a good deal.
But if you want an example of the sheer ignorance of a Sunstate pilot, just read this:
Di-Vosh and some of the others clearly have way too much time on their hands. It is sad that they can still be so emotional and vocal.
The Sunstate EBA has been voted up.
We get it that you dont agree, but its done now.
If you spent half as much time worry about Eastern reaching an agreed position than you have slandering and insulting your brethren up north - then perhaps you would have an agreement?
Time to move on.
Just a thought?
The Sunstate EBA has been voted up.
We get it that you dont agree, but its done now.
If you spent half as much time worry about Eastern reaching an agreed position than you have slandering and insulting your brethren up north - then perhaps you would have an agreement?
Time to move on.
Just a thought?
If you’d bothered to read my other posts, you’d know that I’m not on the EBA team or Eastern council, though I’ve been on both in the past. I can tell you for a fact that only one Eastern EBA team member has posted on this thread (and only once) and that the number of other posts by Eastern council members is under five.
Seriously mate, you only embarrass yourself when you write stuff like that.
Psycho Joe (who compared us with his friends) and Chazdat raised a good point regarding taking this argument elsewhere, but there is nowhere else.
Not QREWROOM. I’d be surprised if even half the Eastern/Sunstate pilots had QREWROOM ID’s, and the Qlink forum averages about one post per year.
Josh Cox started a combined EBA forum on FB, but there wasn’t much discussion on it. People had to post under their real names so it made it difficult for some people to hold a rational discussion. There were accusations of vindictiveness and harassment against Josh and myself, but personally I didn’t see any of it. There were a couple of Trolls. Once they were removed, no-one really bothered posting.
That left Prune.
If you don’t like, don’t read. Simple.
DIVOSH!
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DeafStar
No counter arguments, no attempt at logic, just ridicule (in this case) or abuse.
DIVOSH!
Like most things in aviation, once an event has happened don't dwell on it. Can you change the outcome? Not now you can't. We can go through all of this in another 2 or 3 years time but I'm asking as a fellow colleague (north of the border) please desist from creating dichotomies between the Qlink group. We have to move on from this together!
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DIVOSH
You have had made some valid points. We have had some differences in the past but let's call a truce saying 49% of your stuff is crap and but so is mine : ) ?
Your arguements, often valid, however are let down when in every 5th line in your last post, you slag off the Sunnies mob.
The EBA that was signed off a month ago at Sunnies and a very similar deal agreed to by Easterns is/was not a "**** deal" per say. Unfortunately, it is not as a good a deal for those living in particularly Sydney and Melbourne.
But it is not the fault of Sunnies people that it costs 600K for a 3 bedroom fibro house in Western Sydney an hr's drive from the Airport.
It is also not the fault of Qantas that Sydney is such a rip off.
The blame is mostly fair and square with both State and Federal Governments from both sides over the last 20yrs but that is another story/thread.
Sydney Harbour and beaches are beautiful but the rest of the city is a traffic congested $hithole.
Melbourne CBD/Brunswick St is magic and a very romantic place to take the Mrs for a week, but the rest, well . . . .?
Admittedly it is a better deal for those in Mildura etc where a 2 bedroom does not cost half a million.
I grew up in Sydney, pay me 5K a week and I may move back, will probably have to use $200/week of that on petrol stuck in traffic though?
Surely there are plenty of Sydney/Melboune based Jet jobs that come up throughout the years with Jetstar/Virgin etc that would actually pay an FO position enough to actually be able to pay off a house? If you feel the pay is fuct, which it probably is as an FO compared to the cost of living in Sydney, then leave, either Sydney or the job. I love my job but would I be happy to be paid what I am if I had to pay Syd/Melb housing prices - no way.
But it is not the fault of Sunnies Pilots!
You have had made some valid points. We have had some differences in the past but let's call a truce saying 49% of your stuff is crap and but so is mine : ) ?
Your arguements, often valid, however are let down when in every 5th line in your last post, you slag off the Sunnies mob.
The EBA that was signed off a month ago at Sunnies and a very similar deal agreed to by Easterns is/was not a "**** deal" per say. Unfortunately, it is not as a good a deal for those living in particularly Sydney and Melbourne.
But it is not the fault of Sunnies people that it costs 600K for a 3 bedroom fibro house in Western Sydney an hr's drive from the Airport.
It is also not the fault of Qantas that Sydney is such a rip off.
The blame is mostly fair and square with both State and Federal Governments from both sides over the last 20yrs but that is another story/thread.
Sydney Harbour and beaches are beautiful but the rest of the city is a traffic congested $hithole.
Melbourne CBD/Brunswick St is magic and a very romantic place to take the Mrs for a week, but the rest, well . . . .?
Admittedly it is a better deal for those in Mildura etc where a 2 bedroom does not cost half a million.
I grew up in Sydney, pay me 5K a week and I may move back, will probably have to use $200/week of that on petrol stuck in traffic though?
Surely there are plenty of Sydney/Melboune based Jet jobs that come up throughout the years with Jetstar/Virgin etc that would actually pay an FO position enough to actually be able to pay off a house? If you feel the pay is fuct, which it probably is as an FO compared to the cost of living in Sydney, then leave, either Sydney or the job. I love my job but would I be happy to be paid what I am if I had to pay Syd/Melb housing prices - no way.
But it is not the fault of Sunnies Pilots!
Last edited by biglanchow; 26th Aug 2015 at 21:51. Reason: Spelling mistakes etc
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Future EBA's should therefore provide greater pay rises for those pilots based in high cost centres. Say 1% per annum for those outside SYD and MEL and 5% p.a. for SYD/MEL crews. That sounds fair right?