Highest earning occupations - Pilot not amongst them.
The true figure here is almost impossible to know.
There are a lot of groups with vested interests who promote this issue. Not just malpractice lawyers. But all the industry groups trying to get their products into the hospital system. Electronic medical records or computerised dispensing of medications or expensive new devices are all purported to reduce errors and increase safety. Some do. Some make no difference. And some are frankly counter-productive. Suffice to say that few of these products ever fully deliver the promised results. But just understand you need to find a problem before you can sell a solution.
All that notwithstanding, this is a real problem. There are literally hundreds of patient:clinician encounters for a sick patient admitted to hospital for a week or more. This many encounters guarantees there will be some errors and mistakes.
In aviation, we accept that the majority of errors or failures (holes in the cheese) don't cause an incident or accident. An accident often requires multiple holes to line up. In medicine however, you will always be able to find a hole when reviewing a death. Did the hole cause the death? Or was the death inevitable and unrelated to the earlier error. Causality to mere association? Did an error actually cause the death of the patient? Sometimes it is clear cut. But often it is subjective judgement call haven more to do with prejudice and vested interest than fact.
Remember also that the death rate is the same as it has always been. One per person. Doctors don't save lives, they just delay death. Sometimes however, death can't be delayed and becomes inevitable. Planes can be scrapped or be parked in the desert when they are no longer viable. People however have to die.
Consider also how aviation would work under the following circumstances that characterise the public hospital system:
Often operating aircraft 70-80 years old that had been poorly maintained.
Critical equipment is missing or obsolete or broken, but there is no money this year. Its on next years budget, so hopefully then. For now, just do your best.
People turn up unannounced at an airport and demand to fly wherever they want as often as they want. Unlimited air travel on demand is their right as they "paid for it in their taxes." The politicians keep promising free air travel is here to stay. The passenger does not have to put his hand in his own pocket before deciding if he really wants to fly interstate. If he wants to fly, he flies. Today.
If there are no seats on the plane, thats the airlines problem. Sit them in a toilet or stand them in an aisle or put them in the hold. Whatever. Solve it as best as you can, but you can't deny carriage.
If there are no landing slots, or there are no gates available at the terminal, then that is ATC's or the airports problem. Because another 3 planes are on final (just like another 3 ambulances arriving at an over-capacity hospital). So find a solution.
The relatives change their mind at the last minute and decide they can't come to the airport to pickup grandma today but will come tomorrow. So grandma has to stay on the plane another 24 hours. You needed that seat for someone else? Your problem baby.
Many of the passengers tuning up at the airport don't actually know where they want to fly. They just know they want to fly today. You first job is to diagnose where they want to go. And its random. Some days more want to go to Melbourne. Some days more want to go to Cairns. The number of passengers wanting to go to different destinations will bear no relationship to the capacity you actually have on these different routes today. Good luck.
5% of your pilots called in sick this morning because of those sick passengers at the airport the other day. Guess the other 95% of you are going to be a bit busy today.
There are a lot of groups with vested interests who promote this issue. Not just malpractice lawyers. But all the industry groups trying to get their products into the hospital system. Electronic medical records or computerised dispensing of medications or expensive new devices are all purported to reduce errors and increase safety. Some do. Some make no difference. And some are frankly counter-productive. Suffice to say that few of these products ever fully deliver the promised results. But just understand you need to find a problem before you can sell a solution.
All that notwithstanding, this is a real problem. There are literally hundreds of patient:clinician encounters for a sick patient admitted to hospital for a week or more. This many encounters guarantees there will be some errors and mistakes.
In aviation, we accept that the majority of errors or failures (holes in the cheese) don't cause an incident or accident. An accident often requires multiple holes to line up. In medicine however, you will always be able to find a hole when reviewing a death. Did the hole cause the death? Or was the death inevitable and unrelated to the earlier error. Causality to mere association? Did an error actually cause the death of the patient? Sometimes it is clear cut. But often it is subjective judgement call haven more to do with prejudice and vested interest than fact.
Remember also that the death rate is the same as it has always been. One per person. Doctors don't save lives, they just delay death. Sometimes however, death can't be delayed and becomes inevitable. Planes can be scrapped or be parked in the desert when they are no longer viable. People however have to die.
Consider also how aviation would work under the following circumstances that characterise the public hospital system:
Often operating aircraft 70-80 years old that had been poorly maintained.
Critical equipment is missing or obsolete or broken, but there is no money this year. Its on next years budget, so hopefully then. For now, just do your best.
People turn up unannounced at an airport and demand to fly wherever they want as often as they want. Unlimited air travel on demand is their right as they "paid for it in their taxes." The politicians keep promising free air travel is here to stay. The passenger does not have to put his hand in his own pocket before deciding if he really wants to fly interstate. If he wants to fly, he flies. Today.
If there are no seats on the plane, thats the airlines problem. Sit them in a toilet or stand them in an aisle or put them in the hold. Whatever. Solve it as best as you can, but you can't deny carriage.
If there are no landing slots, or there are no gates available at the terminal, then that is ATC's or the airports problem. Because another 3 planes are on final (just like another 3 ambulances arriving at an over-capacity hospital). So find a solution.
The relatives change their mind at the last minute and decide they can't come to the airport to pickup grandma today but will come tomorrow. So grandma has to stay on the plane another 24 hours. You needed that seat for someone else? Your problem baby.
Many of the passengers tuning up at the airport don't actually know where they want to fly. They just know they want to fly today. You first job is to diagnose where they want to go. And its random. Some days more want to go to Melbourne. Some days more want to go to Cairns. The number of passengers wanting to go to different destinations will bear no relationship to the capacity you actually have on these different routes today. Good luck.
5% of your pilots called in sick this morning because of those sick passengers at the airport the other day. Guess the other 95% of you are going to be a bit busy today.
Nunc est bibendum
40 yrs in the business for me, great job, great money, great conditions. Why do you lot complain!
Been retired for thirteen years!
Been retired for thirteen years!
That's the point Lookleft was making!
PS: I'm not complaining here either but I've seen more changes in the last 5 years tha the preceding 15.
The mistake I made Keg was taking someone at face value and that they were suggesting that they were still in the industry. Being out of the industry for so long makes any comment they make redundant and not even worth the 2cents value they consider it to be.
My comment
should now be considered in the past tense. As you point out the changes that have occurred in the industry even in the past 5 years give those still participating every right and freedom to complain. Of course anyone who flew through the heyday of airline flying would have done so without any complaints.
My comment
while they are sitting on the top of the aviation mountain, how wonderful the view is.
My oath. No complaints from me in the past, that all started when airlines started expending ALL their energy fighting their staff in stead of providing a top notch service to it's customers.
LL, even in the 'heyday of airline flying' we complained and compared our salaries to other better paid professions such as high court judges.
One boss I worked for (a good guy) said that the collective for a group of pilots was a " whinge".
Plus ca change, plus ca la meme chose.
One boss I worked for (a good guy) said that the collective for a group of pilots was a " whinge".
Plus ca change, plus ca la meme chose.
The only difference today is the equipment, nothing else has changed.
Pay
Met up with a mate of mine over the weekend and ,with him having a PPL , Pprune came up. He is a specialist anaesthetist with 24 years of specialist experience in Liver transplants and cardiac anaesthesia . He had to go in for an emergency case on Easter Friday . For the public holiday three hours of effort he gets $289 TOTAL before tax !!!!!!!! I didnt believe him untill he showed me his payslip . A plumber will charge you that just to come to your place in normal working hours.
Medicine is not worth the effort unless you like charity work with a bit of better pay than the average uni graduate.
Medicine is not worth the effort unless you like charity work with a bit of better pay than the average uni graduate.
The only difference today is the equipment, nothing else has changed.
Oh, hang on, I forgot to mention, attitude!
Oh, hang on, I forgot to mention, attitude!
But your right about attitude though, I see your attitude every day usually attached to a wannabe trying to impress the chief pilot thinking that's how you get ahead.
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Certificate IV in Aviation Commercial Pilot Aeroplane Licence (AVI40108)
The Certificate IV in Aviation is designed to meet the needs of Commercial Pilots (Aeroplanes) by using a practical, hands on approach.
The course is 9 months full time.
Come on - comparing a pilot to a doctor is a bit rich.
The Certificate IV in Aviation is designed to meet the needs of Commercial Pilots (Aeroplanes) by using a practical, hands on approach.
The course is 9 months full time.
Come on - comparing a pilot to a doctor is a bit rich.
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Certificate IV in Aviation Commercial Pilot Aeroplane Licence (AVI40108)
The Certificate IV in Aviation is designed to meet the needs of Commercial Pilots (Aeroplanes) by using a practical, hands on approach.
The course is 9 months full time.
Come on - comparing a pilot to a doctor is a bit rich.
The Certificate IV in Aviation is designed to meet the needs of Commercial Pilots (Aeroplanes) by using a practical, hands on approach.
The course is 9 months full time.
Come on - comparing a pilot to a doctor is a bit rich.
Unless we're comparing with intern doctors...
That's basic CPL though? No IR no ME?
)
One point mentioning in this argument is that pilots take a substantial financial risk in their career in that they are self funded, and then their whole career is really tied to one airline thanks to seniority.
Did some sim instruction in a 738 a couple of years ago
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I believe the primary difference between the pilot profession and the medical and legal professions are that pilots tend to be "standardised" to the point where there is little identifiable difference between a "good" pilot and an "adequate" pilot - at least not to the bean counters.
In contrast, the highly regarded/highly experienced surgeons and lawyers get to pretty much write their own salaries (in private practice at least) - whereas the mediocre or non-ambitious, or those in the public sector, are paid poorly in comparison.
Yes, years of training and experience are rewarded in some professions, but not all. I know a surgeon who does very well thank you very much. I also know a highly regarded CEO who does not, simply because he chooses to work for companies he wants to work for rather than who will offer the highest salary. I also know several very low paid PhD graduates.
It took me nearly 10 years to get into the back seat of a jet and a further 15 to get into the LHS of one. I don't feel overpaid, nor do I feel underpaid. My CEO keeps telling me I'm overpaid - at least there the feeling is mutual. Some pilots get to the top a lot faster than that, some slower. Big deal. Many earn a lot more than I do too, many less. I think its worth it to keep up the fight or we'll continue the race to the bottom.
In contrast, the highly regarded/highly experienced surgeons and lawyers get to pretty much write their own salaries (in private practice at least) - whereas the mediocre or non-ambitious, or those in the public sector, are paid poorly in comparison.
Yes, years of training and experience are rewarded in some professions, but not all. I know a surgeon who does very well thank you very much. I also know a highly regarded CEO who does not, simply because he chooses to work for companies he wants to work for rather than who will offer the highest salary. I also know several very low paid PhD graduates.
It took me nearly 10 years to get into the back seat of a jet and a further 15 to get into the LHS of one. I don't feel overpaid, nor do I feel underpaid. My CEO keeps telling me I'm overpaid - at least there the feeling is mutual. Some pilots get to the top a lot faster than that, some slower. Big deal. Many earn a lot more than I do too, many less. I think its worth it to keep up the fight or we'll continue the race to the bottom.
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The gear lever and the flap lever on the 737 hasn't changed much in 40 years either.
If it aint broke don't fix it.
Pastor of Muppets - thanks, I enjoyed that!