Highest earning occupations - Pilot not amongst them.
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Until such time as your superior negotiation skills price you so far above the market that your employer will set up another airline or crewing contractor to replace you. Or your airline goes bust.
Negotiation ain't just about maximising pay if the jobs go elsewhere. There has to be an element of reality in there somewhere.
If someone else is prepared to do the job for less, your only option is to pursuade your employer that your higher premium is worthwhile.
That's become a lot more difficult for pilots in recent decades since the accident rate has declined significantly, and a pilot of mere adequate competency and experience is considered by the bean counters "good enough".
I've noticed Emirates has embarked on a significant marketing campaign to recruit pilots because they can't get enough to replace those who have had enough and are leaving. If that doesn't work they may have to up the incentives. Sadly we rarely have that supply/demand equation in Australia, and when we do the answer tends to be ab-initio cadet programmes.
Negotiation ain't just about maximising pay if the jobs go elsewhere. There has to be an element of reality in there somewhere.
If someone else is prepared to do the job for less, your only option is to pursuade your employer that your higher premium is worthwhile.
That's become a lot more difficult for pilots in recent decades since the accident rate has declined significantly, and a pilot of mere adequate competency and experience is considered by the bean counters "good enough".
I've noticed Emirates has embarked on a significant marketing campaign to recruit pilots because they can't get enough to replace those who have had enough and are leaving. If that doesn't work they may have to up the incentives. Sadly we rarely have that supply/demand equation in Australia, and when we do the answer tends to be ab-initio cadet programmes.
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Agreed Defred.
The problem with our industry is that there will always be some little focker that is prepared to fly a jet for free. The averages have been dragged down by these types that are prepared to accept less than what they're worth to get their foot in the door, so to speak.
The problem with our industry is that there will always be some little focker that is prepared to fly a jet for free. The averages have been dragged down by these types that are prepared to accept less than what they're worth to get their foot in the door, so to speak.
Unfortunately, what you think a jet pilot is worth is different to what "some little focker" thinks it is worth to get out of GA, come home etc. They may also be looking at the long term where it will/may eventually pay off.
It is interesting to see the two simultaneous threads, one bemoaning the fact that pilots aren't amongst the "Highest Earning Occupations", the other posing the most very important question, "QF or VA?"
In the "QF or VA" thread the first three replies simply state..
and on it goes...
So there you have it.
Doesn't matter what, where, when or how much, just as long as you are given the opportunity then TAKE IT.
Take it NOW!
And that gentlemen, is the problem and the cause of why we are not amongst the highest earners anymore. Because there is and always will be someone willing to do the job for less.
Oh, and also it may have something to do with modern aircraft that are ergonomically designed to be operated by any human with an average intelligence (I'm sorry to say it doesn't take an intelligent, qualified and educated person such as an engineer to pilot an aircraft in this day and age anymore, just someone who thinks they are. Do a search on the Dunning-Kruger effect)
So as much as you may think you are wonderful and immensely important, the reality is that a large proportion of the general population could and is able to be monkey trained up to a standard that can carry out the duties of a pilot.
Easy
In the "QF or VA" thread the first three replies simply state..
I would choose to work for the airline that said yes first.
The first one that says yes.
Ditto
So there you have it.
Doesn't matter what, where, when or how much, just as long as you are given the opportunity then TAKE IT.
Take it NOW!
And that gentlemen, is the problem and the cause of why we are not amongst the highest earners anymore. Because there is and always will be someone willing to do the job for less.
Oh, and also it may have something to do with modern aircraft that are ergonomically designed to be operated by any human with an average intelligence (I'm sorry to say it doesn't take an intelligent, qualified and educated person such as an engineer to pilot an aircraft in this day and age anymore, just someone who thinks they are. Do a search on the Dunning-Kruger effect)
So as much as you may think you are wonderful and immensely important, the reality is that a large proportion of the general population could and is able to be monkey trained up to a standard that can carry out the duties of a pilot.
Easy
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Pay to Fly schemes is not the issue.... It's the participants that bypass the normal career progression. These scheme offer no guarantees other than parting these miscreants with their parents' money.
The bar has been to an all time low with such schemes, as carriers realize they can recruit free labour.
The bar has been to an all time low with such schemes, as carriers realize they can recruit free labour.
And that gentlemen, is the problem and the cause of why we are not amongst the highest earners anymore. Because there is and always will be someone willing to do the job for less.
I guess the fact that there is not a publicly available Professional Surgeons Rumour Network must tell us something about the mentality of both groups?
A few years ago I mentioned in a post about the profession of being a pilot that nowadays we only get to make five decisions as captain.
Which leg to fly.
How much fuel to load.
Which level to fly at.
Which meal to eat.
When to stop the show. (Divert, cancel etc)
My point was that either in a company manual, or a manufacturers manual, would be words TELLING you HOW to do everything. The rest is just process.
I was of course howled down by the big watch brigade as knowing nothing about the role of a jet captain. Pretty funny stuff. I believe my theory holds true.
Of course the landing on the Hudson gets dragged out as an example of how I was wrong. Yes, a very small statistical blip. A magnificent job by an experienced pilot nonetheless.
Compare that to a doctor who has a patient present with abdominal pain. Or a lawyer who has to figure out what element of law to use to defend a client. Much more "thinking" required.
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It's more that doctors and lawyers in private practice will be differentiated from one another due reputation and experience and the good ones will be paid accordingly. Pilots are not, due to various reasons - some of which are seniority systems, collective bargaining, and the fact that adequate is considered good enough.
Two surgeons may be differentiated by reputation - surgeon A may stuff it up 10% of the time and surgeon B 1% of the time. Surgeon B will be head hunted by a private hospital and paid a high salary to keep them. Surgeon A may get stuck in a public hospital paid according to a standard public service pay scale. Same would go for a lawyer.
Pilot A may just scrape through the system and Pilot B may be vastly superior in decision making skills etc. But the seniority system will ensure pilot B misses out on early promotion and collective bargaining ensures they are paid the same. The employer doesn't value pilot B until the day pilot A drives one into a mountain.
Two surgeons may be differentiated by reputation - surgeon A may stuff it up 10% of the time and surgeon B 1% of the time. Surgeon B will be head hunted by a private hospital and paid a high salary to keep them. Surgeon A may get stuck in a public hospital paid according to a standard public service pay scale. Same would go for a lawyer.
Pilot A may just scrape through the system and Pilot B may be vastly superior in decision making skills etc. But the seniority system will ensure pilot B misses out on early promotion and collective bargaining ensures they are paid the same. The employer doesn't value pilot B until the day pilot A drives one into a mountain.
the reality is that a large proportion of the general population could and is able to be monkey trained up to a standard that can carry out the duties of a pilot.
However no airline is willing to spend the amount of money that would bring that to fruition, and second to that, the average punter is not going to put up with the high amount of life disruption that entails with aviation. What is the 'large proportion of the general population' doing on NYE/NYD, Xmas, Easter, Australia Day? They ain't at work.
Additional to this is the average punter may not be able to hold a medical.
So your 'large proportion of the general population' ain't that large anymore.
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Spot on
A few years ago I mentioned in a post about the profession of being a pilot that nowadays we only get to make five decisions as captain.
Which leg to fly.
How much fuel to load.
Which level to fly at.
Which meal to eat.
When to stop the show. (Divert, cancel etc)
My point was that either in a company manual, or a manufacturers manual, would be words TELLING you HOW to do everything. The rest is just process.
I was of course howled down by the big watch brigade as knowing nothing about the role of a jet captain. Pretty funny stuff. I believe my theory holds true.
Which leg to fly.
How much fuel to load.
Which level to fly at.
Which meal to eat.
When to stop the show. (Divert, cancel etc)
My point was that either in a company manual, or a manufacturers manual, would be words TELLING you HOW to do everything. The rest is just process.
I was of course howled down by the big watch brigade as knowing nothing about the role of a jet captain. Pretty funny stuff. I believe my theory holds true.
It's the company's train set these days...not the Captain's. (I, too, was howled down recently in another thread for suggesting similar in relation to FO's not needing to grovel to skippers for a PF leg in modern airline ops)
Its all just part of the PROCESS. A process that is dictated by the company (not the Captain) via a manufacturer-derived, regulator-approved Ops Manual.
PG
(PS. Before anyone gets hot and bothered by that reality....yes, of course Captain still = PIC!
)
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Look, it is true that bulk decades ago when you went flying in an aircraft there was a high likelihood that something could go wrong and your pilot ace could save you. But if you have never read the history of pilot wages in the mid 1900's, it might surprise you that the same **** was going on then as is going on now.
Pilot wages actually only got going in the 60's and 70's be because post war there were so many aces looking for work most had to grab a shovel and work on a farm.
Pilots didn't get their **** together until a couple of decades after the war and for the first time managed to get their profession properly recognised.
Korean airlines in the 80's-90's thought they could monkey train pilots into their aircraft. After a dozen or so fatal crashes killing many hundreds of citizens they realised it wasn't working. They decided they actually had to employ experienced western captains and offer them a high salary to do it. Some of my colleagues left QF to do it as it was a good payrise. There was supply and demand and a bit of recognition of what we actually do or achieve in a profession on display. Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough.
You might be pursauded to think that what we do is monkey-dumb. If that's the case, why so many crashes in countries that actually do think it's monkey-dumb? Adam Air anyone?
Pilot wages actually only got going in the 60's and 70's be because post war there were so many aces looking for work most had to grab a shovel and work on a farm.
Pilots didn't get their **** together until a couple of decades after the war and for the first time managed to get their profession properly recognised.
Korean airlines in the 80's-90's thought they could monkey train pilots into their aircraft. After a dozen or so fatal crashes killing many hundreds of citizens they realised it wasn't working. They decided they actually had to employ experienced western captains and offer them a high salary to do it. Some of my colleagues left QF to do it as it was a good payrise. There was supply and demand and a bit of recognition of what we actually do or achieve in a profession on display. Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough.
You might be pursauded to think that what we do is monkey-dumb. If that's the case, why so many crashes in countries that actually do think it's monkey-dumb? Adam Air anyone?
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My optometrist whom I've been seeing for 30 years is awesome. Old school in every way, extremely knowledgeable, and has consistently addressed my needs at a very high level. He's retired now and passed the business on to his son but still works the odd few days a week. The business has changed a lot, gone are beautifully crafted frames replaced with cheap variants (he still lets me use the frames of glasses that he sold me over a decade ago because the quality of them still stands), gone are the traditional eye testing methods replaced with a black box computer system that only does an average job. Gone is the art of hand grinding lenses replaced with precast mass produced lenses that have sizes like shoes.
Blood testing has gone down the same path with kits replacing expert analysis. Sounds familiar?
Not quite, the accountants are always trying to find someone who can do the job for less, they're the ones with whom the final decision rests.
It's only real estate agents and bankers that are making the big money these days, significantly more money than those holding more important positions.
Blood testing has gone down the same path with kits replacing expert analysis. Sounds familiar?
Because there is and always will be someone willing to do the job for less.
It's only real estate agents and bankers that are making the big money these days, significantly more money than those holding more important positions.
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“You will get paid what you negotiate!!”
No, you will get paid largely what you are worth. Unless you have 100 years of industrial impediment standing in the way of market forces preventing the business from evolving to cope with the challenges of rising lower cost competition in which case you will eventually be marginalized.
Then you will get paid largely what you are worth.
“and on it goes... So there you have it. Doesn't matter what, where, when or how much, just as long as you are given the opportunity then TAKE IT. Take it NOW!”
So are you suggesting you should refuse a job offer from Virgin and wait patiently for QF to step up?
“normal career progression.”
What exactly is normal career progression? Is normal defined only by you? Is there a memo defining normal that others can refer to?
“The gear lever and the flap lever on the 737 hasn't changed much in 40 years either . . .That's because Boeing got it right the first time”
Really? The gear and flap levers could be replaced by tiny little switches that weigh virtually nothing. They could even be operated through a computer interface. Just because the engineers at Boeing got it right 40 years ago does not mean it should still be employed today.
“The averages have been dragged down by these types that are prepared to accept less than what they're worth”
I am confused. Your opening comment was “You won't get paid what you're worth”. Now the system is being dragged down by someone who will accept “less than what they're worth”.
Which is it? Worth or negotiation?
“Pilot A may just scrape through the system …pilot A drives one into a mountain.”
If pilot A made it through the system and then crashed into a mountain, don’t you think there is a regulatory issue at play. Why would he crash into a mountain if he “made it through the system”?
“They decided they actually had to employ experienced western captains”
No, they were forced by the insurance underwriters to employ experienced pilots from any hemisphere. Westerners are not the only people who can fly planes.
No, you will get paid largely what you are worth. Unless you have 100 years of industrial impediment standing in the way of market forces preventing the business from evolving to cope with the challenges of rising lower cost competition in which case you will eventually be marginalized.
Then you will get paid largely what you are worth.
“and on it goes... So there you have it. Doesn't matter what, where, when or how much, just as long as you are given the opportunity then TAKE IT. Take it NOW!”
So are you suggesting you should refuse a job offer from Virgin and wait patiently for QF to step up?
“normal career progression.”
What exactly is normal career progression? Is normal defined only by you? Is there a memo defining normal that others can refer to?
“The gear lever and the flap lever on the 737 hasn't changed much in 40 years either . . .That's because Boeing got it right the first time”
Really? The gear and flap levers could be replaced by tiny little switches that weigh virtually nothing. They could even be operated through a computer interface. Just because the engineers at Boeing got it right 40 years ago does not mean it should still be employed today.
“The averages have been dragged down by these types that are prepared to accept less than what they're worth”
I am confused. Your opening comment was “You won't get paid what you're worth”. Now the system is being dragged down by someone who will accept “less than what they're worth”.
Which is it? Worth or negotiation?
“Pilot A may just scrape through the system …pilot A drives one into a mountain.”
If pilot A made it through the system and then crashed into a mountain, don’t you think there is a regulatory issue at play. Why would he crash into a mountain if he “made it through the system”?
“They decided they actually had to employ experienced western captains”
No, they were forced by the insurance underwriters to employ experienced pilots from any hemisphere. Westerners are not the only people who can fly planes.
Nunc est bibendum
Pilot A may just scrape through the system …pilot A drives one into a mountain.”
If pilot A made it through the system and then crashed into a mountain, don’t you think there is a regulatory issue at play. Why would he crash into a mountain if he “made it through the system”?
If pilot A made it through the system and then crashed into a mountain, don’t you think there is a regulatory issue at play. Why would he crash into a mountain if he “made it through the system”?
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If pilot A made it through the system and then crashed into a mountain, don’t you think there is a regulatory issue at play. Why would he crash into a mountain if he “made it through the system”?
Wow, it appears you think just like the bean counters.
You seem to seriously believe that pilot skills are black and white. Competent and Incompetent. And if an aircraft crashes it's the regulators fault. You can't regulate all factors that contribute to air safety. At some point, skilled and experienced human beings are required to complete the safety system, and that's where it becomes subjective.
Do you think the same of surgeons? Black and white? Competent and Incompetent? Only assessable by a regulator?
Why would a surgeon stuff up an operation if he "made it through the system"? Yet they do!
So do pilots. Only you often don't read about it in the paper because the stuff up wasn't serious enough to bend any metal, or it was recovered in time - sometimes due to the intervention of another pilot or another party. But occasionally the holes in the cheese line up. It is up to us to minimise the number of holes and maximise the number of slices to prevent that from happening, and that isn't a black and white process.
As far as regulations go, the buck stops with someone. That would be the airline AOC holder, who has a mandate to ensure the safety of the operation - including assessing the experience and competence of the pilots. Last time I looked, the AOC holder at my airline wasn't even a pilot. He delegates his responsibility to a team of office-dwelling pilots who work tirelessly improving this or that to maximise the safety of the operation (or, more likely, desperately trying to minimise the safety impact of cost cuts). But at the end of the day, when that aircraft just misses that mountain, all those people are comfortably tucked up in bed, while pilot B calmly takes over from pilot A and averts a disaster. I just hope there aren't two pilot A's on the flight deck tomorrow night.
Why do air accident investigation reports run to so many pages? Because the accident is never black and white. There is no such thing as safe and unsafe. There is only more safe and less safe.
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A few years ago I mentioned in a post about the profession of being a pilot that nowadays we only get to make five decisions as captain.
Which leg to fly.
How much fuel to load.
Which level to fly at.
Which meal to eat.
When to stop the show. (Divert, cancel etc)
Which leg to fly.
How much fuel to load.
Which level to fly at.
Which meal to eat.
When to stop the show. (Divert, cancel etc)
If one of your hardest decisions is figuring out which meal to eat then go back to flying singles for a bit, your command decision making skills have obviously eroded away or you never had them in the first place. A few decisions the average GA or medical pilot makes on a daily basis to refresh your memory:
Which patch of dirt you're most likely to survive in when the fan stops
If the drum fuel out in Timbuktu isn't going to seize your engine
Whether you can squeeze that extra freight on so you don't get the sack when you land but don't plow it into the deck and get the sack anyway
Whether or not it's safe to fly a defected aircraft home when a recovery will cost 10's of thousands
Whether or not your passenger is going to die on you if you divert because of marginal weather
What to do when a passenger is abusing you, throwing things at you in flight over the tanami desert with the nearest suitable diversion 1.5 hours away
Whether or not you think your 1978 pa31 will remain in one piece after flying through a squall line at night when your weather radar (from the 70's) decides to show nothing
Deciding whether it's worth it getting up at 3am to be the operations, flight planner, ground handler, bag chucker, refueller, flight attendant, and engineer for the next 12 sectors for a measley 39k a year- oh and did I mention fly the plane in between?
There are plenty of pilots that make decisions like these everyday and they are on some of the lowest wages in Australia, so think again when some of you make the assumption that all pilots are just 'autopilot monitors' these days and aren't worth anything. They are the ones worth the big dollars and deserve to reap the 'rewards' of airline flying ($$$, lifestyle, comfort) later in their career because they have MADE those decisions for a long time for most. It doesn't matter if it's a drop in the ocean (Hudson river crash) experience that saves lives is worth every cent.
Last edited by c173; 11th May 2015 at 23:38. Reason: iphone grammar!