Highest earning occupations - Pilot not amongst them.

[framer]

A senior colleague of mine (who is a fully qualified specialist) works five days a week and makes about $1200 a fortnight

That doesn't sound believable to me. Can you elaborate/ explain ?

[Alchemy101]

That doesn't sound believable to me. Can you elaborate/ explain ?


Because in the public system, junior consultants (specialist surgeons who have completed medical school, internship, residency, registrar training, and fellowship, and then often more years) are frequently paid a small percentage of a full time equivalent.

For example, you might be expected to do two days 'on call' a week. So they pay you for the two days (9-5) + $12 for being on call overnight (seriously it's $12).

However, every other day you're also the first point of contact for the trainees on your team, who can't operate independently on major cases - so you are always on call for that.

And you need to help with ward rounds for your inpatients, some of whom will be long stay patients who need lots of input, and obviously the people you admit often stay in a few days, have issues, get sick, get better etc and people call you about them as well. People often wait days for an operation on the emergency list (with no scheduled time), and suddenly you'll get a slot and need to be available for it. And you can't just not come in, because people are people, and they are dynamic, changing, improving and declining all the time. So the admin staff don't care, because they know if you've got patients you'll be there, whether they pay you or not, because duty ties you (it's the same as if you stop paying pilots halfway through the flight - they'll still finish it!).

The result? You work full time and then some - but for peanuts when you're on such an arrangement. Often in the hope of scoring the elusive full time job, or even better, visiting medical officer (fee for service) appointment.

Myself and the surgeon in question I mentioned performed an 8 hour emergency operation just last Wednesday that finished at 3am. Fortunately for me, my contract does pay for overtime - but hers is a fixed 'full time equivalent' boss job - so she did that operation for free. Things like that happen all the time.

So that's why

[bazza stub]

Wasn't airline pilot also voted the most stressful job some time back? Let me sum it up then:

>Most stressful
>Cost of failure is potentially career ending/fatal
>Quickly becoming moderately/poorly paid
>Handles tens of millions of dollars worth of equipment and hundreds of lives at any one time, all day every day
>Airlines truly believe (and advertise) that we don't really do anything "up there"
>Get put through the ringer every 3-6 months in the simulator
>Get put through the ringer every year by a Doctor
>Have to beg for basic human right most days
>And don't forget, we have to indemnify ourselves against loss of licence too

Riiiiiiiiiight! What was I thinking? Should have become an accountant

[Mach E Avelli]

Bollocks that flying is "the most stressful job".
A surgeon working casualty, bomb disposal, abalone diver - now THOSE are stressful!
The only part of flying I ever found stressful was in latter years when they brought in all the security bull**** and I had to wait in line while some gorilla checked out my toothpaste for Semtex.

[highflyer40]

I do think it's funny that in almost every thread that comes up about pilot pay the comparison with doctors always comes up. They are incomparable because they are in two different leagues. That's the biggest problem is that most pilots put themselves on too high of a pedestal.

[OzSync]

Spot on highflyer, I find it quite embarrassing that so many of my peers feel we are comparable - I must say this tends to be the older generation that feel this way though.

As for "airline pilot being stressful" - seriously, no, unless you really find it hard to be proficient I guess.

[Lookleft]

As for "airline pilot being stressful" - seriously, no, unless you really find it hard to be proficient I guess.

The insurance companies don't agree with you. Why do you think income protection (not loss of licence) will only cover you as an airline pilot to age 55?

And yes there is no way being a pilot is comparable to being a doctor- because the medical profession kill 4000 people/year!

[Oakape]

Usually surgeons only rake it in when working private practice in their 40s/50s, and by then, they're playing catchup having effectively worked for peanuts for 20 years.

Used to be that way in aviation, raking it in in the later years (well, at least making up for the lean earlier years). Sadly that's no longer the case!

[Willie Nelson]

This comparison is so ridiculous, why do pilots do this to themselves.

Having formerly dated a doctor, I can vouch that the medical profession for most individuals provided substantially more stress than this great profession of ours, at least here in Australia.

Apart from the exams, which most of us would not pass.

Five years study before you earn, literally anything and then you find that the nurses are earning more money when you're an RMO

The hours doctors work, working on days off for no extra money with the continuing ongoing study for years on end, almost complete lack of social life, for most specialties barring perhaps GP's.

Our industry, on the other hand, has very clearly defined FDTL's Minimum days off that certainly, in the airlines are adhered to. Minimum ongoing study requirements albeit with regular checks and keep up study here and there.

There's just no comparison, I get to have a life in this job and the more time I spend away from this job the more I love it, I get lots of time away.

As for money:

The girl I dated almost fell over whe she heard what I earned as an FO. At that time I was earning around $95k all in, compared to her $75k as a paediatric registrar. Of course she will no doubt overtake me at some point but on a time investment versus financial return the comparison is ridiculous.

Pilots don't generally get in to their profession because of the money and neither do doctors. One of the only things pilots and doctors have in common is that we both get in to the job because for many a varied reason we like the idea of said occupation.

The greatest driver for our pay and conditions here is Australis is the level of public interest in an air crash. The unfortunate reality is that there is not the same level of public interest in an individual death of a patient and the public's ability to objectively comprehend the cause of such a death is limited at best.

I have the utmost respect for doctors, please stop the comparison, you make us look like overpaid idiots.

[Buttscratcher]

Bob? Bob, is that you?

[Icarus2001]

Alchemy101, you say you are a surgeon, so I respect the fact you may know what this guy earns, but really...?

A senior colleague of mine (who is a fully qualified specialist) works five days a week and makes about $1200 a fortnight.

Given that the minimum full time wage in Australia is about $640 per week, or about $33,000 a year. I cannot see how he earns $600 a week. Even if you mean net pay?

Minimum wage up 3 per cent, rise of $18.70 a week

[framer]

Thanks Alchemy, I'm astounded by this. I always imagined doctors and especially surgeons starting on about $70k at year one but rapidly rising through to 2 or 300k within a decade.
Would it be a minority who earn low dollars like this or perhaps 50/50 ?
Again, I can't quite believe it.
When I holiday on the Sunshine Coast I have seen several ads for GP's with salary's starting with a 3. Is there a particular reason for that?
Thanks for your time.

[pull-up-terrain]

$70k at year one but rapidly rising through to 2 or 300k within a decade.

That may of been the case 20 years ago, but these days, to become a specialist in a particular area or a GP, you can't really start training in any of these areas unless you have at least 10 years experience of working in hospitals. So to see these sort of high incomes, you probably will be in your early 40's at the absolute earliest (assuming you complete a 3 year science degree and swap over into a 5-6 year medicine degree).

[Alchemy101]

Given that the minimum full time wage in Australia is about $640 per week, or about $33,000 a year. I cannot see how he earns $600 a week. Even if you mean net pay?

Yes, it's pretty outrageous isn't it. It boils down to being paid as part time, but the hospital knowing full well (and expecting) that you're full time. Awards etc haven't quite solved the 'on call' responsibilities of doctors. The doctor in question I mentioned is paid as a percentage of a full time equivalent (the 100% rate of which is about $130000 PA) but still works at least 6 days a week. But we don't clock on or off, as it were, and we migrate around the hospital so there's no real record. However, there are very few who are actually employed 100%. This is really common, and is a form of underemployment where you still spend your days working, but on paper are only part part time.

Thanks Alchemy, I'm astounded by this. I always imagined doctors and especially surgeons starting on about $70k at year one but rapidly rising through to 2 or 300k within a decade.
Would it be a minority who earn low dollars like this or perhaps 50/50 ?
Again, I can't quite believe it.
When I holiday on the Sunshine Coast I have seen several ads for GP's with salary's starting with a 3. Is there a particular reason for that?
Thanks for your time.

Interns are currently paid about $60,000 PA in NSW (before tax). Resident 1 are paid about 68k, Resident 2 78k (same as registrar 1) and so forth. Full time final year surgical registrars (specialist trainees in the public system) are paid about $100,000 but expected to work crazy hours. Surgical fellows (when you're qualified, but not yet in a permanent boss job) are often paid $20k stipend per annum or less. Staff specialist surgeon starts at about $130k but again, only if you get employed as 100% full time equivalent which is very very rare now except in the country (and to be honest, $130k for someone who has worked their arse off for ~15 years and holds significant responsibility I think is not excessive!)

When members of the public see a specialist they might have a consult in rooms for 10 minutes and be charged $170 and think that's a bit steep. But when the costs of rooms, practice costs (so much regulation $$), secretary, insurance, courses, training debts, relocation debts and heaps of pro-bono stuff you have to do are factored in, most surgeons do not break even in rooms unless they see >14 people in day of consulting rooms. Same goes for operations - in a private list you need at least a couple of cases to cover the overheads.

I'm only a PPL so I don't know how hard it is to be a CPL and airline pilot etc which I'm sure are much more effort. But I did the PPL for relaxation and found the exams to be relaxing - surgical exams are somewhat more scary!

As multiple people have said - we do it because we like it, or we have some weird sense of duty or something. I didn't pick my profession for money - I had other options if that was the priority! And I don't regret it.

But I reiterate - pilots should be paid more, I think, especially (some of the) poor buggers in GA and SO/FO who are getting paid $60k - total exploitation. Reckon it should be 100+

[pilotchute]

This is how it works. You finish your medical degree then you start your year hospital placement. At the end of that 12 months you can start applying for training positions. Surgeon or Psych whatever tickles your fancy. If you get a training position straight away you can expect to be fully qualified by early thirties at the earliest. Once qualified you will be on 150 a year min. This will rise quickly. The average taxable income in 2013 for a surgeon was 300k.

The only way you would be walking the wards for 10 years is if you got continuously rejected for every training position you applied for.

[Alchemy101]

The only way you would be walking the wards for 10 years is if you got continuously rejected for every training position you applied for.

Actually if you look at the SET Selection regulations for RACS you'll see the earliest you can apply is in postgraduate year (PGY) 2, for PGY3. Last year, one candidate got on in PGY2, the rest were PGY3+ The shortest training program is general surgery, which is 5 years not including fellowship or research components. The longer ones are 7 years. So assuming you get on to everything instantly, and never fail any exams, the soonest you could theoretically be a consultant surgeon in Australia is as a general surgeon after 7 years of walking the wards. Given that neurosurgery, orthopaedics etc all take candidates PGY4+ and they are 5-7 year programs, their minimum PGY status to be a consultant is 10 years of ward walking (not including the ward walking you do as a student), assuming you get on to everything instantly, and never fail an exam, and never do research. In reality most candidates are at least PGY 10+ for general and 12+ for the other specialities by the time they become consultants.

So you're mistaken in that. And in your salary estimates.

[Fred Gassit]

And the medical schools have been very successful in churning out far more candidates than can be accommodated.
A GP working in an inner city bulk billing clinic would have to churn through patients at a ridiculous rate to keep up with the Jones's these days. It's not actually clear to me how they are profitable at all.

[framer]

Fascinating ( and a bit disturbing).
Can you give us a rough run down of your medical career Alchemy? Pay included?
Thanks again, it's nice to get a different perspective.

[pilotchute]

So alchemy your example only covers surgeons. What about ANZCA or other colleges?

I have just been informed that yes 2 post grad years min for RACS. So undergrad med degree in 5-6 years so possible to finish by 24? Two years then acceptance to RACS possible. So the shortest course is 5-7 years so how could you not be qualified by under 35? I didn't say it was the norm but possible and it has been done. How are my salary figures out please tell.

How is what I said before so wrong? I didn't say neuro or ortho.

[slats11]

The grass isn't always greener....

From where I sit with family in aviation and medicine, things are going downhill for both professions.

Exploitation in early years as people crawl over broken glass competing to land that dream job.
Significantly greater responsibility that most workers will ever know - especially in an era when most people are doing all they can to minimise their professional responsibility.
If you make it (and many don't), yes there is significantly higher pay than average workers. This comes at a very high price however, and the Australian tax rates mean you quickly come to learn about the law of diminishing returns.
A job that is intrinsically rewarding per se, but which is becoming ever more difficult due to cost-cutting, ever increasing requirements for productivity gains, ever increasing public expectations, and an ever increasing regulatory burden.
Higher than average divorce rates - in addition to the emotional cost, a divorce will seriously erode whatever wealth you may have managed to build by your 40's or 50's.
Diminished respect by the general public - which does gradually erode morale and goodwill, and which assists our industries to drive down our T&C.
The ever present risk that a single bad decision could be enough to effectively end your career.

If you still believe the grass really is greener on the other side, comfort yourself in the certain knowledge they are turning off the irrigation on the other side as well.