Qantas Fleet Order Speculation
Nunc est bibendum
And we wonder why we're in a race to the bottom!!!!
I'll ask you what I asked others on qrewroom (and have yet to see an answer). What is 'acceptable' or reasonable for the 787 in mainline colours? How do you propose to convince Qantas of the merits of your numbers?
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The race to the bottom comment was referring to Lotsa's comment suggesting if it were voted down that pilot's break ranks within the union and grab a spot for themselves. This attitude never serves us well. Companies use this internal threat to their advantage all the time and pit one group against another. We keep helping them out by being predictable!
I'm not saying that the proffered conditions are terrible. What I am suggesting is that we needn't give up so much on those ULH routes. Qantas are applying a lot of pressure to achieve a substantial change in pilot T & C. This change will perpetuate forever and all future EA's will be referenced to it.
I'm not saying that the proffered conditions are terrible. What I am suggesting is that we needn't give up so much on those ULH routes. Qantas are applying a lot of pressure to achieve a substantial change in pilot T & C. This change will perpetuate forever and all future EA's will be referenced to it.
It simply isn't sustainable to have people being paid double or more overtime on long flights. As far as I know, no other airline does it. It makes the long flights prohibitively expensive in a lot of cases. Remember the profit margin is paper thin, and the good times have to cover the bad, so yes doubling the crew cost would impact profitability.
The proposal seems a very fair offer, modernising some of the outdated provisions of the current LH determination.
The only thing QF can compete on, given high wages in Australia compared to our competition, is point to point long routes out of Australia. If we can do those for a reasonable cost we will expand. Expansion and promotion is where a pilot makes their money, and career. Sitting as an SO earning $200k+ might be nice but there is no future in it.
There are many positives: the best B787 rate in Australia, expansion (maybe a lot depending on economic circumstance) the protections of Australian employment conditions. Staying in the QF ecosystem and in Australia. Unlike what some say, awards can and do evolve over time. If there is something that is really not working, then in the next EBA we negotiate to change it.
We also negotiate from a MUCH stronger position in the next EBA, because the aircraft will have arrived and they will be profitable. At the moment our profitablilty rests pretty much on fuel prices and it can evaporate quickly.
Change is not always a bad thing...and just because something is different does not mean it is automatically bad!
Oh and well done to the negotiators, good to see that the non-combative approach can work.
The proposal seems a very fair offer, modernising some of the outdated provisions of the current LH determination.
The only thing QF can compete on, given high wages in Australia compared to our competition, is point to point long routes out of Australia. If we can do those for a reasonable cost we will expand. Expansion and promotion is where a pilot makes their money, and career. Sitting as an SO earning $200k+ might be nice but there is no future in it.
There are many positives: the best B787 rate in Australia, expansion (maybe a lot depending on economic circumstance) the protections of Australian employment conditions. Staying in the QF ecosystem and in Australia. Unlike what some say, awards can and do evolve over time. If there is something that is really not working, then in the next EBA we negotiate to change it.
We also negotiate from a MUCH stronger position in the next EBA, because the aircraft will have arrived and they will be profitable. At the moment our profitablilty rests pretty much on fuel prices and it can evaporate quickly.
Change is not always a bad thing...and just because something is different does not mean it is automatically bad!
Oh and well done to the negotiators, good to see that the non-combative approach can work.
Last edited by Sprite; 14th Jun 2015 at 23:22. Reason: Sp
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The problem you guys have is that your cost structure is too high , simple mathematics really.
The only international markets you have had any success in are those where there is pretty much zero competition, across the Pacific.
And you just got plain lucky there, just like this upcoming profit, just some straight out luck with your fuel prices.
In the 90s , early 2000s you got flogged by Cathay/Sing , lost immense amounts of traffic , whinged about it, retreated from the market
Then you had the 3 middle Eastern get to work on you , provide a much better service , pretty much eat you alive , whinged about it , essentially retreated from the market
Then the Chinese got to work on you, & yet again another retreat , and almost a complete retreat from the market.
The only areas you guys have had any success on in the international space have been across the Pacific. V little competition as the US carriers were all in Chapt 11 for donkeys years. Gee you were the champions then across the Pacific , when the other guys were in bankruptcy.
The only part of your company that has consistently made money is your grocery shopping loyalty program , remember you guys are actually meant to be running an airline. Spivvy little program it is to , clipping small retailers an extra 1% to use cards , splitting the dough with the banks , then not actually allowing to use the points. Gee that would be hard to make money on.
I would like to see an airline/cartel getting such approval for a program in any other first world jurisdiction , they wouldn't wear that kind of crap in Canada, NZ , UK.
Travel to Asia a little often see your Crews around. I don't think I have spotted a Cabin Crew member under the age of late 40s. Understand all on a wage, after allowances , overtime of $120K to $200K. They were really quite old & many were substantially overweight. On the aircraft they are OK but think & act much slower than their SIA / Cathay counterparts, & for some reason seem to think cleaning the toilets is beneath them. Interesting crowd really.
Why do you think 787s will come ? , your international business has been in decline for years, & your international fleet is the same size as it was 30 years.
In fact you probably have a smaller international fleet than 1985 in terms of number of seats , with around 30 742s, a couple of SPs , 743s back then.
It's a pretty simple equation really if you cost 50 to 100 % more than your competitors & work 50% less , you just aren't going to make any money.
Take a look at your Second Officers QF A380 guys consistently earn over $250K , the Cathay second officers earn $100k tops.
The QF long haul flight crew & cabin crew have been difficult recalcitrant unions for management to have any sensible dialogue with over the past twenty years. They all seem to want to golden days of the 1980s to live on , 500 hours a year or something. So that is why in 2015 your international business is a train wreck, Six times as many international arrivals to Aust over last 30 years & your Int Fleet size is the same as 1985.
Well played guys !!
QF management spending billions to buy you guys 787s , forget it guys , it just ain't gonna happen.
The only international markets you have had any success in are those where there is pretty much zero competition, across the Pacific.
And you just got plain lucky there, just like this upcoming profit, just some straight out luck with your fuel prices.
In the 90s , early 2000s you got flogged by Cathay/Sing , lost immense amounts of traffic , whinged about it, retreated from the market
Then you had the 3 middle Eastern get to work on you , provide a much better service , pretty much eat you alive , whinged about it , essentially retreated from the market
Then the Chinese got to work on you, & yet again another retreat , and almost a complete retreat from the market.
The only areas you guys have had any success on in the international space have been across the Pacific. V little competition as the US carriers were all in Chapt 11 for donkeys years. Gee you were the champions then across the Pacific , when the other guys were in bankruptcy.
The only part of your company that has consistently made money is your grocery shopping loyalty program , remember you guys are actually meant to be running an airline. Spivvy little program it is to , clipping small retailers an extra 1% to use cards , splitting the dough with the banks , then not actually allowing to use the points. Gee that would be hard to make money on.
I would like to see an airline/cartel getting such approval for a program in any other first world jurisdiction , they wouldn't wear that kind of crap in Canada, NZ , UK.
Travel to Asia a little often see your Crews around. I don't think I have spotted a Cabin Crew member under the age of late 40s. Understand all on a wage, after allowances , overtime of $120K to $200K. They were really quite old & many were substantially overweight. On the aircraft they are OK but think & act much slower than their SIA / Cathay counterparts, & for some reason seem to think cleaning the toilets is beneath them. Interesting crowd really.
Why do you think 787s will come ? , your international business has been in decline for years, & your international fleet is the same size as it was 30 years.
In fact you probably have a smaller international fleet than 1985 in terms of number of seats , with around 30 742s, a couple of SPs , 743s back then.
It's a pretty simple equation really if you cost 50 to 100 % more than your competitors & work 50% less , you just aren't going to make any money.
Take a look at your Second Officers QF A380 guys consistently earn over $250K , the Cathay second officers earn $100k tops.
The QF long haul flight crew & cabin crew have been difficult recalcitrant unions for management to have any sensible dialogue with over the past twenty years. They all seem to want to golden days of the 1980s to live on , 500 hours a year or something. So that is why in 2015 your international business is a train wreck, Six times as many international arrivals to Aust over last 30 years & your Int Fleet size is the same as 1985.
Well played guys !!
QF management spending billions to buy you guys 787s , forget it guys , it just ain't gonna happen.
Last edited by Flyboat North; 15th Jun 2015 at 09:25.
Mate I don't work for QF but one of their Asian competitors but I will say this to you.
Get that chip off both shoulders.
Oh and I get paid roughly the same as a QF driver, my colleagues OS get more after expat allowances....
Our S/O's get slightly more than 100 K, only pay 15% tax and that's a starting salary. The A380 QF ones you quote are senior crew picking their trips and as such making the most flight pay AND your figure includes Super.
Why don't you tell me how much a new joiner QF S/O earns?
Get your facts straight and at the very least compare Apples with Apples.
Get that chip off both shoulders.
Oh and I get paid roughly the same as a QF driver, my colleagues OS get more after expat allowances....
Our S/O's get slightly more than 100 K, only pay 15% tax and that's a starting salary. The A380 QF ones you quote are senior crew picking their trips and as such making the most flight pay AND your figure includes Super.
Why don't you tell me how much a new joiner QF S/O earns?
Get your facts straight and at the very least compare Apples with Apples.
Last edited by ACMS; 15th Jun 2015 at 09:40.
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I hope they go well, but you would have to admit really that their international business has gone remarkably poorly over the past 30 years , by any objective measure.
& like the car industry before them normally you know an industry is in its death spiral when they try to fleabag off the taxpayer
There is no airline anywhere that pays anywhere near the kind of dough the QF pilots get.
QF are paying their second officers between $150 to $200 K USD , miles more than a garden variety BA Capt. A380 Capts on $450 K (AUD) and B747 Capts on an average of $400 K
Where is the chip my friend ? , I hope they do well , but if they don't change their work practices in a fairly drastic way , QF will just progressively shut down the international business.
Figures don't include super , A380 SOs have grossed $280K (AUD), nearly three times your Cathay SOs
Income tax just has nothing to do with it, we are talking about how much money the airline pays the crew member.
Do a calc of the wages of a Melb/HK Cathay Versus QF - for that one week of work, & the work rates of pilots/cabin crew , don't imagine CX would be taking the SO along for seven hour jaunts like QF do out of Sing
Looks like you picked the right airline to join
& like the car industry before them normally you know an industry is in its death spiral when they try to fleabag off the taxpayer
There is no airline anywhere that pays anywhere near the kind of dough the QF pilots get.
QF are paying their second officers between $150 to $200 K USD , miles more than a garden variety BA Capt. A380 Capts on $450 K (AUD) and B747 Capts on an average of $400 K
Where is the chip my friend ? , I hope they do well , but if they don't change their work practices in a fairly drastic way , QF will just progressively shut down the international business.
Figures don't include super , A380 SOs have grossed $280K (AUD), nearly three times your Cathay SOs
Income tax just has nothing to do with it, we are talking about how much money the airline pays the crew member.
Do a calc of the wages of a Melb/HK Cathay Versus QF - for that one week of work, & the work rates of pilots/cabin crew , don't imagine CX would be taking the SO along for seven hour jaunts like QF do out of Sing
Looks like you picked the right airline to join
Last edited by Flyboat North; 15th Jun 2015 at 09:54.
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Nothing has been agreed to & been firmed up , they have not ordered the 787s for QF mainline, and there is no indication that they will recommend an expansion or aircraft order to the board.
Remember your maintenance "engineers" cost the company several hundred million through industrial action over the years, & these debts have to be paid at some point.
I would have though reducing the debt might be a more important priority , the Int business has been one screw up after another for 30 years.
Remember your maintenance "engineers" cost the company several hundred million through industrial action over the years, & these debts have to be paid at some point.
I would have though reducing the debt might be a more important priority , the Int business has been one screw up after another for 30 years.
QF management spending billions to buy you guys 787s , forget it guys , it just ain't gonna happen.
Expecting anything sensible from FBN posts would be like expecting honesty in any of Joseph Geobbels speeches.
What is so annoying is that it isn't intelligent, factual commenting. I don't mind (actually I learn most from) people with differing views, but non-factual illegitimate rants based on innuendo and rubbish is very annoying.
I would like to think most of us grew out of that kind of debating in about 5th class at school. 'You smell! Cos you do!' type of circular arguing shouldn't really be the domain of (hopefully) adult discussions involving billions of dollars and thousands of peoples lives.
What is so annoying is that it isn't intelligent, factual commenting. I don't mind (actually I learn most from) people with differing views, but non-factual illegitimate rants based on innuendo and rubbish is very annoying.
I would like to think most of us grew out of that kind of debating in about 5th class at school. 'You smell! Cos you do!' type of circular arguing shouldn't really be the domain of (hopefully) adult discussions involving billions of dollars and thousands of peoples lives.
FBN:--- you still haven't told me how much a brand new SO in QF earns compared to a brand new CX SO?
QF fly 1 Capt, 1 FO and 2 SO's on their long haul whereas CX fly 1 Capt, 2 FO's and 1 SO long haul.
Compare a QF A330 Capt to a CX A330 Capt in HK and include all the CX expat allowances.
Compare a QF 744 Capt to a CX 744 Capt in HK and include all the CX expat allowances and see how it looks then.
The only crew that would be cheaper are the cabin crew.
The major operating cost for QF is not the crew......these same costs are effecting Asian carriers as well.
QF have the wrong fleet, simple.
Once you've done that compare QF to EK as well.
QF fly 1 Capt, 1 FO and 2 SO's on their long haul whereas CX fly 1 Capt, 2 FO's and 1 SO long haul.
Compare a QF A330 Capt to a CX A330 Capt in HK and include all the CX expat allowances.
Compare a QF 744 Capt to a CX 744 Capt in HK and include all the CX expat allowances and see how it looks then.
The only crew that would be cheaper are the cabin crew.
The major operating cost for QF is not the crew......these same costs are effecting Asian carriers as well.
QF have the wrong fleet, simple.
Once you've done that compare QF to EK as well.
Doesn't matter who earns what ! That fly crew pay has anything more than a minuscule effect on the operating cost of an aircraft is a rumour started by management. I could never work out why Airline management insist on pi55ng off the people who have the major operating cost of an aircraft, fuel, in their left or right hand .
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This crap that Qantas pilots "work less" is a furphy.
Our Australian rules say 900hours per year, in times the company pushes many to that limit. When they don't it is not the pilots fault.
Our Australian rules say 900hours per year, in times the company pushes many to that limit. When they don't it is not the pilots fault.
Last edited by Tankengine; 15th Jun 2015 at 23:13.