Qantas Fleet Order Speculation
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Qantas Fleet Order Speculation
A peer into the possible future...If a current SO or FO are awarded an FO slot on the 787 and for whatever reason they fail ... I assume that person will take up the position of SO 787 and the associated pay(cut)?
Nunc est bibendum
As it is now. I recall a couple of 744 S/Os who didn't get through A330 F/O training and ended up as A330 S/Os for the 18 months or so before they were permitted to have another go.
QF long haul is a barely profitable business in long term decline. This EBA needed to address this structural problem. The proposed 787 agreement is just what is needed. Why on earth though have the inefficient, unproductive and outrageous working conditions on the B747 and A380 been allowed to continue unchecked. The angst and pain over the last few years have affected many in FLTOPS and the wider QF Group, yet these guys are left untouched. The only reform these guys have endured was in the form of SBLs and even this required the massive buy off in the form of Element 3 top up. The system in QF Long Haul is inefficient and unfair. Those that have profited from it should expect to lose out without compensation. The bigger the pig, the louder they squeal.
And if the airline had performing managers no one would disagree.
The point is that the incumbent 'team' has done nothing but destroy the company that is paying their wages and do nothing but 'learn on the job'.
There is nothing to show for their 'efforts' (and the term is advisedly used) but $2b+ wasted on a failed ventures, gaol terms, nationalised businesses and massive salary bonuses.
The bigger the pig, the louder they SHOULD squeal. But they don't, they won't and no doubt they will earn even more next year.
I wouldnt put any of them in charge of a school tuck shop....
The point is that the incumbent 'team' has done nothing but destroy the company that is paying their wages and do nothing but 'learn on the job'.
There is nothing to show for their 'efforts' (and the term is advisedly used) but $2b+ wasted on a failed ventures, gaol terms, nationalised businesses and massive salary bonuses.
The bigger the pig, the louder they SHOULD squeal. But they don't, they won't and no doubt they will earn even more next year.
I wouldnt put any of them in charge of a school tuck shop....
v-baby,
The question remains, what has been done to reduce the inefficiency of long haul. Your argument about a QF management is valid but mostly tilting at windmills. That is played out between the board and major shareholders, we have no input in that game. Assess the proposed agreement on its merits. We all hate the fact that QF is now making a good profit and that Alan is going to walk away with 16M in share options. Don't let emotion overrule the facts.
The question remains, what has been done to reduce the inefficiency of long haul. Your argument about a QF management is valid but mostly tilting at windmills. That is played out between the board and major shareholders, we have no input in that game. Assess the proposed agreement on its merits. We all hate the fact that QF is now making a good profit and that Alan is going to walk away with 16M in share options. Don't let emotion overrule the facts.
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Long Haul in QF, as typified by the A330 operation, Is efficient. The problems come wth cascading ADP payments on the ULH routes.
Having said that, if a crew is regularly schedules for 18-20 hour TODs on the 787, I believe there should be some compensation for that.
Having said that, if a crew is regularly schedules for 18-20 hour TODs on the 787, I believe there should be some compensation for that.
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Good post Equaliser - the people I know in the financial world are betting for a good full year result - perhaps enough to pay down debt and pay a dividend or do a buyback. If management really are talking about new jets as well then it's a fair bet that the result will be healthy enough to cover off on the debt, do some capital management and to make some small moves toward a new type without spooking the market too much. It's all speculation of course.
Assuming this is true then Alan will get a good payout and unfortunately for his task of managing his workforce expectations in the couple of years to come, he'll be getting it in the year that he asked his workforce to take an 18 month pay freeze. This will stick in the craw of many, but the fact is it's his job to right-size this business and he gets paid to do it.
The only question for the Pilots is whether this deal is acceptable or not to them and their own situation - hopefully the majority will even look past their own situation and be prepared to cede something for the good of the majority and those who will follow at QF long haul. This includes all those pilots in SH who don't get a say but may move across later - of course this deal will expire in a few years and a new direction may appear then based on people's experience of this agreement. Nothing is forever.
For mine - the time to fix the LH award is now or there may well never be a chance without damage being done in the meantime to the career opportunities of the mainline group and perhaps their ability to bargain as a unified group - the business is at an inflection point that may never be repeated - i.e. in a year or two the shareholders may not let the management buy more jets. The time is now.
Assuming this is true then Alan will get a good payout and unfortunately for his task of managing his workforce expectations in the couple of years to come, he'll be getting it in the year that he asked his workforce to take an 18 month pay freeze. This will stick in the craw of many, but the fact is it's his job to right-size this business and he gets paid to do it.
The only question for the Pilots is whether this deal is acceptable or not to them and their own situation - hopefully the majority will even look past their own situation and be prepared to cede something for the good of the majority and those who will follow at QF long haul. This includes all those pilots in SH who don't get a say but may move across later - of course this deal will expire in a few years and a new direction may appear then based on people's experience of this agreement. Nothing is forever.
For mine - the time to fix the LH award is now or there may well never be a chance without damage being done in the meantime to the career opportunities of the mainline group and perhaps their ability to bargain as a unified group - the business is at an inflection point that may never be repeated - i.e. in a year or two the shareholders may not let the management buy more jets. The time is now.
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Wow,
The company must be pissing themselves laughing.
Nothing like egotistical fools measuring their self worth with a big "maybe" promotion. No thought given to the long game.
Just like those that rushed to JQ to chase a promotion and wonder what the hell they were thinking.
Zero promotions have been assured. Zero. No guarantees it's not just a 747 replacement. As others have suggested No top up pay protections like the cabin crew have if they get busted to QCCA.
Big sweeping statements, dumbing down conditions and falling hook line and sinker for the company spin.
Wayne Kearns is correct. Pilots really are stupid.
It's GA I'll do it at any cost/race to the bottom mentality.
I'm not suggesting that the staus Quo stays. Agree the PSN is a good idea, so is rationalising overtime to a more reasonable level. I still believe you should get SOME overtime for doing an 18 hour plus TOD . Perhaps it can't be like it is today but that's a different thing than ZERO. From all accounts the next new types will do SYD-JFK DIRECT. Do you think if you accept zero overtime now the company will say, oh ok, we will agree to some overtime on another type as that's an awfully long sector.
Giving away overtime in its ENTIRETY AND night credits is gifting everything in a good operating environment, when the macro economic times are just improving for Qantas International.
Conditions once given away are NEVER returned.
But when pilots have a do it at any cost mentality they are easily fooled.
Farm sold for nothing but a glimmer of hope.
If I were Qantas I'd use this weak/give anything away mindset to totally rip apart terms and conditions for when the A320 Neos replace the 737.
Start talking to Network/Cobham,JQ and get QF pilots rushing to the door to offer pay cuts to secure the 90 plus orders.
Be like taking candy from a baby.
The company must be pissing themselves laughing.
Nothing like egotistical fools measuring their self worth with a big "maybe" promotion. No thought given to the long game.
Just like those that rushed to JQ to chase a promotion and wonder what the hell they were thinking.
Zero promotions have been assured. Zero. No guarantees it's not just a 747 replacement. As others have suggested No top up pay protections like the cabin crew have if they get busted to QCCA.
Big sweeping statements, dumbing down conditions and falling hook line and sinker for the company spin.
Wayne Kearns is correct. Pilots really are stupid.
It's GA I'll do it at any cost/race to the bottom mentality.
I'm not suggesting that the staus Quo stays. Agree the PSN is a good idea, so is rationalising overtime to a more reasonable level. I still believe you should get SOME overtime for doing an 18 hour plus TOD . Perhaps it can't be like it is today but that's a different thing than ZERO. From all accounts the next new types will do SYD-JFK DIRECT. Do you think if you accept zero overtime now the company will say, oh ok, we will agree to some overtime on another type as that's an awfully long sector.
Giving away overtime in its ENTIRETY AND night credits is gifting everything in a good operating environment, when the macro economic times are just improving for Qantas International.
Conditions once given away are NEVER returned.
But when pilots have a do it at any cost mentality they are easily fooled.
Farm sold for nothing but a glimmer of hope.
If I were Qantas I'd use this weak/give anything away mindset to totally rip apart terms and conditions for when the A320 Neos replace the 737.
Start talking to Network/Cobham,JQ and get QF pilots rushing to the door to offer pay cuts to secure the 90 plus orders.
Be like taking candy from a baby.
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Can a 787 go to New York direct from Sydney? Wow. Can't wait to recline in 1A on that one. So glad I won't need to deal with the LA Customs people anymore.
You guys do realise that it's erroneous to believe that new types will be ordered no matter what? Qantas used to have 4 or 5 LHR flights a day and now has 2. No reason that won't be repeated with LAX and elsewhere if the capex and modelling can't be justified and sadly that includes wages for everyone involved.
You guys do realise that it's erroneous to believe that new types will be ordered no matter what? Qantas used to have 4 or 5 LHR flights a day and now has 2. No reason that won't be repeated with LAX and elsewhere if the capex and modelling can't be justified and sadly that includes wages for everyone involved.
Pigs squealing
That's the reaction when the next Generation finally get a say in the future direction their careers will take.
Keep squealing Piggies... You are only looking more selfish and frightened of losing your privileged status with every post.
This EBA will get voted up. We have a next Gen Pres who is supremely articulate and will continue to counter the fear campaigns generated by Gen "all about me."
Min changes to existing types so if the 787 doesn't eventuate then nothing lost. The total package offered on the 787 is very acceptable to the majority who now see a glimmer of hope for their futures that doesn't include lwop or Jet*.
Keep squealing Piggies... You are only looking more selfish and frightened of losing your privileged status with every post.
This EBA will get voted up. We have a next Gen Pres who is supremely articulate and will continue to counter the fear campaigns generated by Gen "all about me."
Min changes to existing types so if the 787 doesn't eventuate then nothing lost. The total package offered on the 787 is very acceptable to the majority who now see a glimmer of hope for their futures that doesn't include lwop or Jet*.
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I can't see how a crappy deal is good for the next generation.
Agree the super seniority system has to go. The PSN system is fair and equitable. That's not the point.
Happy to give the AIPA COM credit on that. Will get voted on like it should have years ago when rubbish hurdles were set re PSN.
Can't see how the removal of ALL overtime and ALL night credits on Ultra Long Haul flights is wise.
Perhaps reduce it somewhat and compromise.
But to give it all away for nothing and thinking your smart and sticking it to the old guys is even sillier.
Your just screwing your own future terms and conditions. Dumb herd mentality.
Funny as its not ok for the JQ guys to do the job for less however it's perfectly acceptable to self inflict harm within Q pilots.
Given the lack of experience and naivety surprised the deals not worse.
Agree the super seniority system has to go. The PSN system is fair and equitable. That's not the point.
Happy to give the AIPA COM credit on that. Will get voted on like it should have years ago when rubbish hurdles were set re PSN.
Can't see how the removal of ALL overtime and ALL night credits on Ultra Long Haul flights is wise.
Perhaps reduce it somewhat and compromise.
But to give it all away for nothing and thinking your smart and sticking it to the old guys is even sillier.
Your just screwing your own future terms and conditions. Dumb herd mentality.
Funny as its not ok for the JQ guys to do the job for less however it's perfectly acceptable to self inflict harm within Q pilots.
Given the lack of experience and naivety surprised the deals not worse.
Can't see how the removal of ALL overtime and ALL night credits on Ultra Long Haul flights is wise.
The majority have had enough of being sidelined.
What other airlines in the world get paid overtime based on sector length?
Overtime is great if you are on an aircraft that does it but 4 man 18 TODs are probably less painful than 3 to Japan or Shanghai. 2.5 hours of watching a movie then a long sleep on the next break is hard work. Yes jet lag sucks but it isn't worth double time compared to 2 man BOC ops. Not by any stretch.
This shift will mean that ULR flying will be most likely to be more junior. So in the cage you will get DFW et al and at the top regionals like Singapore and Manila. Or people can bid to go to places they might want to stay at as opposed to which one pays the best. A novel concept I know. How is a flatter pay structure a bad thing? New yes bad no.
I reckon it is a good deal. I think the AIPA negotiatiors have done a really good job in the circumstances.
Overtime is great if you are on an aircraft that does it but 4 man 18 TODs are probably less painful than 3 to Japan or Shanghai. 2.5 hours of watching a movie then a long sleep on the next break is hard work. Yes jet lag sucks but it isn't worth double time compared to 2 man BOC ops. Not by any stretch.
This shift will mean that ULR flying will be most likely to be more junior. So in the cage you will get DFW et al and at the top regionals like Singapore and Manila. Or people can bid to go to places they might want to stay at as opposed to which one pays the best. A novel concept I know. How is a flatter pay structure a bad thing? New yes bad no.
I reckon it is a good deal. I think the AIPA negotiatiors have done a really good job in the circumstances.
Nunc est bibendum
Can't see how the removal of ALL overtime and ALL night credits on Ultra Long Haul flights is wise.
Perhaps reduce it somewhat and compromise.
But to give it all away for nothing and thinking your smart and sticking it to the old guys is even sillier.
I think O/T extends to planned tour of duty too so any delays now get O/T. A SYD- HKG delayed by an hour gets ADP. Previously it wouldn't have attracted a cent*. Similarly any ULH stuff gets the same as well.
But to give it all away for nothing and thinking your smart and sticking it to the old guys is even sillier.
(* I need to double check this O/T rule but that was how it was explained to me).
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What if all the gives don't secure a future?
What if all it achieves is a jet for jet replacement ? What if there is zero growth ?
That's a lose lose situation.
Just removes terms and conditions from current crews. Got news for you too.
Won't touch the senior pilots who your trying to stick it too.
What if all it achieves is a jet for jet replacement ? What if there is zero growth ?
That's a lose lose situation.
Just removes terms and conditions from current crews. Got news for you too.
Won't touch the senior pilots who your trying to stick it too.
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Another race to the bottom fear campaign being touted on PPRUNE - so why are Pilot T&Cs always dropping?? due to ever increasing CEO bonuses or maybe it's because the industry is always in flux
What long game are you talking about - we'll just sit tight on our T&Cs - maybe just tweak a bit around the edges as you suggest and we'll still get aeroplanes and will get the flying - good luck with that - QFI was anaemic 12 months ago with fuel prices higher, a capacity dump by overseas carriers and partnerships being signed left right and centre whilst QF Intl shrunk. Things are getting better now but those headwinds will continue again at some point or will be in another form - not company generated spin but reality - I'm not after promotion, I'd rather the company was positioned for that situation so all pilots can keep there jobs at that point.
Yes but they did and that genii is out of the bottle - go on keep pretending it isn't
Correct - no promotions can ever be assured except through growth - A new type will definitely be a 744 replacement and given the age of some of the A330s and 50 options on the 787 it may even replace the A330 in time. I prefer to deal in facts today which say that AIPA has spent time getting the best deal they can for a new type.
Typical adversarial approach to the company and believe they're just here to screw you down - good on you - the primary drivers in Qantas and any company are always commercial and if the IR spin doctors can get a strategy to negotiate off that back of that then no doubt they will. I reckon the tight timeline of this is purely market driven to coincide with the full year results and not to rush a YES vote by ignorant pilots - you can have your opinion that it's all about robbing you of your overtime - fact is the company wants costs to come out - labour costs are about the only lever they can pull in this area - the investors will not stomach a 787 purchase with pilot's on 744/A380 terms - there will have to be a give - that's just reality, wish it wasn't but it is.
WK getting quoted again as some mastermind pulling the strings here.
So have a bet each way then. Advocate some change but perhaps not as must as what is on offer - if that's the case go ahead and vote NO and see what AIPA can renegotiate on your behalf, if they get the chance.
.
Why because you've always had it?? look around at other airline contracts and see what they are paid in terms of overtime and see what you can negotiate on that basis. Also ask the crews that do 2 or 3 pilot back of the clock duties what that kind of fatiguing duty is worth to them - you'll get a different answer to yours on what deserves what - in the end it only matters what you can negotiate with the company - if you want overtime after X hours then you can probably have a lower hourly rate instead.
Yes the fact is the company is getting some tailwinds - fact is this will allow the company to purchase aeroplanes to replace the 744 and maybe the A330 - fact is ULH flying on long thin routes with a new type will probably require additional crews as frequencies will probably go up - if they don't go up then so be it, in that case you'll be flying less pax around than the 744/380 did - do you the think in that case the company will pay the same as a 744/380 pilot for carrying less pax and therefore producing less revenue?? When 777-8x arrives it'll carry more pax than the 789, but they won't arrive in QF colours if we're still getting around paying double time or more for the last few hours of the sector. Fact is Pilot salaries do impact on the profitability of routes - Networks don't model a route and say No-Go based on the CEOs bonus, but they will pull off a route or not start one based on aircraft operating variables such as crew costs including hotels, allowances and pay. We work in a low margin business where EVERY cost counts. The company 'spins' this line because it's reality - I reckon hold the line as much as possible and argue the toss over keeping as much as possible in our T&Cs - but the world is also turning.
True - can you live with what's on offer though? Hold the line if you can but see where the momentum is taking things and get the best deal you can.
No ones selling the farm here - take a look at the deal on offer in it's entirety if you're actually in the game and not some bystander - if you are the latter then take your 'fear campaign' somewhere else.
If I were Qantas and couldn't get the deal I wanted I'd set up a greenfields international operation and drive a wedge through the pilot ranks that way - the FWA is still relatively untested in this area - who wants to press to test on that scenario? Fact is no one on this forum is a senior decision maker in Qantas, so it's all BS. The domestic 'fight' that you preview is a possibility but it is for another day - doing a deal for the LHEBA does not preclude any number of future deals being more aggressively contested as a pilot group.
Nothing like egotistical fools measuring their self worth with a big "maybe" promotion. No thought given to the long game.
Just like those that rushed to JQ to chase a promotion and wonder what the hell they were thinking.
Zero promotions have been assured. Zero. No guarantees it's not just a 747 replacement. As others have suggested No top up pay protections like the cabin crew have if they get busted to QCCA.
Big sweeping statements, dumbing down conditions and falling hook line and sinker for the company spin.
Wayne Kearns is correct. Pilots really are stupid.
I'm not suggesting that the staus Quo stays. Agree the PSN is a good idea, so is rationalising overtime to a more reasonable level.
I still believe you should get SOME overtime for doing an 18 hour plus TOD
Why because you've always had it?? look around at other airline contracts and see what they are paid in terms of overtime and see what you can negotiate on that basis. Also ask the crews that do 2 or 3 pilot back of the clock duties what that kind of fatiguing duty is worth to them - you'll get a different answer to yours on what deserves what - in the end it only matters what you can negotiate with the company - if you want overtime after X hours then you can probably have a lower hourly rate instead.
Giving away overtime in its ENTIRETY AND night credits is gifting everything in a good operating environment, when the macro economic times are just improving for Qantas International.
Conditions once given away are NEVER returned.
But when pilots have a do it at any cost mentality they are easily fooled.
Farm sold for nothing but a glimmer of hope.
Farm sold for nothing but a glimmer of hope.
If I were Qantas I'd use this weak/give anything away mindset to totally rip apart terms and conditions for when the A320 Neos replace the 737.
Start talking to Network/Cobham,JQ and get QF pilots rushing to the door to offer pay cuts to secure the 90 plus orders.
Start talking to Network/Cobham,JQ and get QF pilots rushing to the door to offer pay cuts to secure the 90 plus orders.
It's not all about you
Won't touch the senior pilots who your trying to stick it too.
It's not actually all about you.....
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If the company could start a greenfields operation it would have done it.
The Liberals could not touch the fair work act as they were scared it would be seen as a return to workchoices. Political suicide despite the push from BHP,RIO, Qantas and the business council of Australia.
They tried and failed during the lockout.
Glad some believe that Qantas has had a sudden change of heart.
Trade away hard fought terms and conditions and the new jet orders will suddenly flow, new destinations appear, codeshares reduced as the pilots are on board finally.
The Liberals could not touch the fair work act as they were scared it would be seen as a return to workchoices. Political suicide despite the push from BHP,RIO, Qantas and the business council of Australia.
They tried and failed during the lockout.
Glad some believe that Qantas has had a sudden change of heart.
Trade away hard fought terms and conditions and the new jet orders will suddenly flow, new destinations appear, codeshares reduced as the pilots are on board finally.