Jetstar Second Officer Plans
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We will try once more......... This time trolls and pests will be removed from the thread so the more intelligent can have a rational debate. 
There have been some changes to the widebody FO minimum requirements recently.
JQ now require FOs to have ATPL prior to promotion to WB FO. This will mean the FO can act as PIC and a SO can be on the flight deck while the captain is on rest.
This would indicate to me that they are seriously looking at using SOs in the future... It could also mean they want to remove the restriction of the inability of rostering two non ATPL FOs on a heavy crew.... Time will tell.
JQ now require FOs to have ATPL prior to promotion to WB FO. This will mean the FO can act as PIC and a SO can be on the flight deck while the captain is on rest.
This would indicate to me that they are seriously looking at using SOs in the future... It could also mean they want to remove the restriction of the inability of rostering two non ATPL FOs on a heavy crew.... Time will tell.
That would be just under 5 years ago. We're averaging 850 hrs a year so that would put the average for the first group around 4000 hrs jet conservatively. Two of them are conducting the internal type ratings actually.
Most of us in the first few ground schools had ATPLs or weren't far off anyway.
Most of us in the first few ground schools had ATPLs or weren't far off anyway.
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BA used to place cadets directly onto the 757 , then after 12 months allow them to fly the 767.
You should tell BA & UK CAA how scary and dangerous this practice is , and insist they stop it immediately. While your at it do the same for SIA & CAAS , who do the same in Sing, as did/do most Euro legacies
Tell the rest of Western Europe they are all wrong , and the think tank that is the Aussie GA/Regional Astronaut holds all wisdom on matters aviation.
What a backwards & inward looking place Australian Aviation is, bunch of hillbillies really.
You should tell BA & UK CAA how scary and dangerous this practice is , and insist they stop it immediately. While your at it do the same for SIA & CAAS , who do the same in Sing, as did/do most Euro legacies
Tell the rest of Western Europe they are all wrong , and the think tank that is the Aussie GA/Regional Astronaut holds all wisdom on matters aviation.
What a backwards & inward looking place Australian Aviation is, bunch of hillbillies really.
FBN, ever consider whilst ever under the constant guidance and protection of an experienced Capt? So now you've gone from Q bashing to white trash talk.....such a professional!
The concept of using S/O's to supplement heavy crews has been around, worldwide, for a loong time and has been very beneficial.
It allows the company to reduce costs, this should be self explanatory.
For the pilots, it's a great way to, as it were, do one's "apprenticeship". This is ideal if the time as S/O was around 2 or 3 years. This is a great opportunity for a pilot with less experience, to observe and LEARN.
I was fortunate enough to spend 2 years as an S/O on international long haul operations before getting my hands on a 737. It was an amazing experience, learnt a huge amount from all crewmembers involved. I'm sure it could get a bit stale after a few years, though.
It allows the company to reduce costs, this should be self explanatory.
For the pilots, it's a great way to, as it were, do one's "apprenticeship". This is ideal if the time as S/O was around 2 or 3 years. This is a great opportunity for a pilot with less experience, to observe and LEARN.
I was fortunate enough to spend 2 years as an S/O on international long haul operations before getting my hands on a 737. It was an amazing experience, learnt a huge amount from all crewmembers involved. I'm sure it could get a bit stale after a few years, though.
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Well the people who think SO exp is such a wonderful learning opportunity really only have that experience to reflect on , they never went direct to the RHS.
Compare who is in front after two years say a Luftansa cadet who would have over 1500 hours of 737/A320 FO time , two European winters done several hundred take offs & landings as to a back seater with ANZ, Qant etc
Not much of a contest even less so when you compare it to the BA guys who were RHS in a 767 one year out of flight school. Think you might actually learn more from doing it instead of "watching & observing"
Very few airlines use SOs , and those that do are almost all legacies that have had one or two little issues adapting to private ownership & real world competition, aside from Cathay of course. But then again Cathay don't pay Qantas SO rates of $150k to $260K.
The view of 90 % of airlines is that they want pilots as FOs , zero interest in SOs, jury is pretty much in you might think.
I asked the question earlier why does QF use SOs, on the daily flights to Singapore from Melb/Syd/Brisb when SIA crew these flights two pilots. Pretty short hop you might think, someone should take a look at it, might be able to save the company $10 million pa or so.
Suspect nearly all of the QF flights to Asia are crewed with 3 pilots when the competition uses two pilots.
Yes yes I know they are iconic , they are very special
Compare who is in front after two years say a Luftansa cadet who would have over 1500 hours of 737/A320 FO time , two European winters done several hundred take offs & landings as to a back seater with ANZ, Qant etc
Not much of a contest even less so when you compare it to the BA guys who were RHS in a 767 one year out of flight school. Think you might actually learn more from doing it instead of "watching & observing"
Very few airlines use SOs , and those that do are almost all legacies that have had one or two little issues adapting to private ownership & real world competition, aside from Cathay of course. But then again Cathay don't pay Qantas SO rates of $150k to $260K.
The view of 90 % of airlines is that they want pilots as FOs , zero interest in SOs, jury is pretty much in you might think.
I asked the question earlier why does QF use SOs, on the daily flights to Singapore from Melb/Syd/Brisb when SIA crew these flights two pilots. Pretty short hop you might think, someone should take a look at it, might be able to save the company $10 million pa or so.
Suspect nearly all of the QF flights to Asia are crewed with 3 pilots when the competition uses two pilots.
Yes yes I know they are iconic , they are very special
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Not true was in Sing , last Nov & saw the SO as part of a 747 crew , think they were going to Bris. See SOs there all the time actually
Are there actually any routes that the A330 flies on where they actually need a SO , same for the A380 run up to HK
The unpalatable truth is that QF is overmanned to quite bizarre levels, and the use of three pilot crews when the competition is using two pilot crews would be costing tens of millions per year. You have about 200 SOs for the A330 , very very few routes the A330 flies on actually requires an SO
Then you pay them twice the industry average , average QF SO $200K , whereas for Cathay , Virgin (yes based in Australia also) , ANZ all pay around $100k.
If Jetstar strike a pay deal for their SOs of under $100k , well I think there will be a whole lot more 787s going to Jetstar instead of Qantas.
But when they get into trouble QF just tries to fleabag on the Aussie tax payer with Govt Secured loans & stuff
Are there actually any routes that the A330 flies on where they actually need a SO , same for the A380 run up to HK
The unpalatable truth is that QF is overmanned to quite bizarre levels, and the use of three pilot crews when the competition is using two pilot crews would be costing tens of millions per year. You have about 200 SOs for the A330 , very very few routes the A330 flies on actually requires an SO
Then you pay them twice the industry average , average QF SO $200K , whereas for Cathay , Virgin (yes based in Australia also) , ANZ all pay around $100k.
If Jetstar strike a pay deal for their SOs of under $100k , well I think there will be a whole lot more 787s going to Jetstar instead of Qantas.
But when they get into trouble QF just tries to fleabag on the Aussie tax payer with Govt Secured loans & stuff
For info, my experience as an S/O was 26 years ago in Africa, never flew for Qantas.
So, I guess I my comments have a bit more backing than some wannabe who appears to have gained his VAST experience during the odd stroll through the airport.
I'm not saying S/O is better than direct F/O. It is a great way to be inducted into an airlines operation with less stress for all involved. This is probably more beneficial for those with less experience.
So, I guess I my comments have a bit more backing than some wannabe who appears to have gained his VAST experience during the odd stroll through the airport.
I'm not saying S/O is better than direct F/O. It is a great way to be inducted into an airlines operation with less stress for all involved. This is probably more beneficial for those with less experience.
Nunc est bibendum
The facts:
There are about 55 A330 S/Os in Qantas.
The most junior of them has been in Qantas for 6 years now. They earn about $130K.
Year 1 pay after completing check to line for an A330 S/O is circa $95K rising to circa $115K by the end of year 2.
S/Os are only carried on routes to/from Asia where the flight and duty time limitations require them to be.
Current A330 S/O routes (return trips obviously):
SYD-BKK 9:50 stick.
MEL- HKG 9:40 stick
BNE- HKG 9:10 stick
SYD- HNL 9:45 stick.
SYD- MNL 8:20 stick*
BNE- NRT 9:15 stick
SYD- PVG 10:55 stick
*This used to be 2 man on the 767 in some directions on some days but the lengthy taxi out in sydney at that time of the day consistently pushed the blox time beyond 8 hours. CASA would have Qantas strung up if they were scheduling a service that regularly exceeded the limits.
There are about 55 A330 S/Os in Qantas.
The most junior of them has been in Qantas for 6 years now. They earn about $130K.
Year 1 pay after completing check to line for an A330 S/O is circa $95K rising to circa $115K by the end of year 2.
S/Os are only carried on routes to/from Asia where the flight and duty time limitations require them to be.
Current A330 S/O routes (return trips obviously):
SYD-BKK 9:50 stick.
MEL- HKG 9:40 stick
BNE- HKG 9:10 stick
SYD- HNL 9:45 stick.
SYD- MNL 8:20 stick*
BNE- NRT 9:15 stick
SYD- PVG 10:55 stick
*This used to be 2 man on the 767 in some directions on some days but the lengthy taxi out in sydney at that time of the day consistently pushed the blox time beyond 8 hours. CASA would have Qantas strung up if they were scheduling a service that regularly exceeded the limits.
Last edited by Keg; 24th Jul 2015 at 08:12. Reason: Typo on the SYD-MNL stick time.
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The problem with this tosser is that if he is not challenged, his fictions become assumed truths which is what he wants.
Shut him down at every opportunity and eventually he will go back to wherever he comes from (which may well only exist in his own mind or QF spin doctor factory).
The only way to get some facts into the debate is for the MODS to ban him, and even then he assumes another userid to get back in.
Shut him down at every opportunity and eventually he will go back to wherever he comes from (which may well only exist in his own mind or QF spin doctor factory).
The only way to get some facts into the debate is for the MODS to ban him, and even then he assumes another userid to get back in.
Just for the record, pressure is being brought to bear on CX crews to operate two-man crew on more HKG-AUS v.v. flights, which will include BNE and ADL, including overnight sectors. CNS and PER have always been two-man. The contract is to be 'amended'. HKG-MEL and -SYD are safe 'for now' until the faster A350 is introduced, then the pressure will be on again.
This is one of the many causes of significant industrial tension in CX and is considered a flight safety issue.
This is one of the many causes of significant industrial tension in CX and is considered a flight safety issue.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 24th Jul 2015 at 10:02.