Jetstar Second Officer Plans
Cadets are the way the industry is headed. The A320 and 737 are the old 206 and 210s in most of the world now. With a proper training scheme they seem to progress alright.
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Agree with these 2 ^^^^ I think the sooner you accept the Cadets are part of the industry now, the sooner you'll get over it.
I'll be interested if Jetstar puts them on straight away once this EBA gets passed.
which routes does Jetstar currently run a heavy crew?
I'll be interested if Jetstar puts them on straight away once this EBA gets passed.
which routes does Jetstar currently run a heavy crew?
Nunc est bibendum
I find it hard to believe any pilot would think it a good idea.
Of course, CASA Part 61 and various ICAO requirements have put the sword to the benefits of flying climbs and descents as a S/O so perhaps it's not as useful as it once was but for cultural and experience reasons it's still a pretty good thing for a 200+ hour pilot to have (and that's from someone who had 400+ when I joined).
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Keg,
You don't think you would have gotten that experience when in the CM2 seat? The only reason the Second Officer position is around is to save bean counters money.
Everyone has a bias as to what is the right way depending on how they progressed. Can you think of a better way to train someone than when they are young and keen? Put em in a seat and teach them the ropes.
If sitting and watching is required YouTube should become part of the syllabus.
If companies want cadets they need to invest in their training.
You don't think you would have gotten that experience when in the CM2 seat? The only reason the Second Officer position is around is to save bean counters money.
Everyone has a bias as to what is the right way depending on how they progressed. Can you think of a better way to train someone than when they are young and keen? Put em in a seat and teach them the ropes.
If sitting and watching is required YouTube should become part of the syllabus.
If companies want cadets they need to invest in their training.
Nunc est bibendum
G'day Don. Could I have? Probably. Should I have? Not in my opinion. Then again perhaps my perception is coloured by the fact that the 767 at the time was still doing a lot of international ops where I was left on my own with S/Os.
However, if a S/O position exists (and I reckon there is a place in the world for the rank/ role) then it is a great way for the ex cadet to learn the operation without the additional risk of lack of experience in a control seat.
Important to note that the cadetship I did was a bit more robust than the ones they're doing these days too. Aerobatics, lots of SEIFR time, commercial navs in a twin and Citation time as well.
However, if a S/O position exists (and I reckon there is a place in the world for the rank/ role) then it is a great way for the ex cadet to learn the operation without the additional risk of lack of experience in a control seat.
Important to note that the cadetship I did was a bit more robust than the ones they're doing these days too. Aerobatics, lots of SEIFR time, commercial navs in a twin and Citation time as well.
I spent the first 10 years of my career flying with ex-cadets who were now Captains in a major European airline. An airline that doesn't have the SO position and these guys were ab-initio with no flying experience. Their first flying job was right hand seat on either a DC-10 or 747. Didn't seem to cause this particular airline any difficulties, they were all excellent Captains, well run cadet schemes are beneficial and produce a good quality of pilot and captain without the need to sit in the 'back'. As stated above, the position of SO is one that only benefits the accountants.
The only reason the Second Officer position is around is to save bean counters money.
If companies want cadets they need to invest in their training.
How many European carriers do you see losing aircraft on a regular basis?
The best way of learning is being in a control seat, just like how you and I learnt the trade.
The issue with 321 was concerning enough for them to be resticted for 12 months before being endorsed. The FAA is a world leader in aviation regulation and they have a 1500 hour requirement for F/Os. The Senate here recommended the same thing for jet F/Os in Oz but we don't have a world class regulator.
Experience and training is starting to emerge as a safety issue in recent accidents. My intent is not to denigrate cadets, as I stated they have strengths and weaknesses, but I also don't consider the G/A career path to be irrelevant when it comes to flying an RPT jet. The only voice on this thread that has been a cadet and an S/O thinks its a good way of being introduced to RPT jet operations, and that is good enough for me.
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That study is completely flawed, conclusion does not agree with content. I can find paragraphs like this all day:
Direct entry first officers are more likely to have had higher exposure to, and familiarity with, these concepts prior to entry to this airline and it is not surprising that their communication would be stronger, given the necessity of operating in a team environment for longer than the 5 years in this airline alone. This also applies to the results from Airline C, which showed that direct entry pilots were scoring higher in both situation awareness and leadership and management.
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Cadet schemes can work providing sufficient systems and balances are put in place to ensure the required level of experience on the flight deck. LCC's are driven very strongly by cost (hence the name) and it betroves a regulator or a very strong safety oriented management team to ensure these systems and balances are maintained. Cadets direct to RHS of a jet are a serious threat to the operation if not very carefully managed.
AFR447 proved that a couple of cadets in charge while the Captain sleeps is just the hole in the swiss cheese that is needed to kill a few hundred innocent passengers.
FBN reckons cadets are superior because he is one. There are only two pilots I am aware of who think they are superior to other pilots. One is the guy who single-handedly (apparently) saved QF32 and wrote a book and a movie, and the other is FBN.
AFR447 proved that a couple of cadets in charge while the Captain sleeps is just the hole in the swiss cheese that is needed to kill a few hundred innocent passengers.
FBN reckons cadets are superior because he is one. There are only two pilots I am aware of who think they are superior to other pilots. One is the guy who single-handedly (apparently) saved QF32 and wrote a book and a movie, and the other is FBN.
Last edited by Derfred; 18th Feb 2015 at 13:42.
Thread Starter
I swear there is like 50 other threads about what your trying to turn this into ^^ cadets vs DE ... At the end of the day, lets stay on topic.
Any info on which routes are taking heavy crew/ how many SOs they'll need??
Any info on which routes are taking heavy crew/ how many SOs they'll need??
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The above is very much on topic my friend. The S/O role is a very effective one in introducing low hour pilots into the job, and has worked very well in mainline for decades.
Derfred, all pilots be they ex 737 Capt, 7000hr multi military pilot or cadet join QF as an SO. I would suggest more at the demand of the bean counters than the training department.
Perhaps Cathay is the best model for success?
Note: QF haven't hired any pilots for about seven years...
... Whereas Cathay has hire experienced pilots direct to the F/O seat while cadets were hired or extended in the S/ O seat for the benefit of more observational experience.
At least that's what my contacts have explained.
... Whereas Cathay has hire experienced pilots direct to the F/O seat while cadets were hired or extended in the S/ O seat for the benefit of more observational experience.
At least that's what my contacts have explained.
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Don, it ain't at the demand of the bean counters, it's at the demand of the EBA. Seniority rules. There was an exception made early last decade for a bunch of experienced ex Ansett 737 pilots who were fast-tracked to 737 F/O outside of seniority. I'm just saying that the S/O role is a great system for new low hour pilots - especially cadets. Experienced pilots joining have to put up with it also. I'm not suggesting that they should remain S/O's for 10 or 20 years either, which happens. But that's another thread.
There was an exception made early last decade for a bunch of experienced ex Ansett 737 pilots who were fast-tracked to 737 F/O outside of seniority.
I wouldn't go there if you meet the direct entry requirements even if they do offer it. It's not the new avenue into the company..... Just a way of reducing the number of WB FOs required and type freezing them for three years