Qantas and the 787-900
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A 787 is roughly a replacement of a 767, although it would be likely to be flying more LH routes than the 767 was in it's later years.
You could put the 787 on the 767 contract and no-one would be realistically too upset.
By my back of the envelope calculations, putting a 787 on an A330 pay rate - but without night credits or overtime - would roughly approximate the 767 salary, with the exception that all pilots would be paid about the same instead of the senior creaming the overtime.
You don't need overtime to "persuade" crew to complete the job. Crew will complete the job unless they are too fatigued to do so. No professional pilot would disrupt hundreds of pax unnecessarily.
Overtime has always been the absurd inequity in LH. To be paid so much more for sleeping 8 hours in a bunk has always puzzled those of us who fly 11 hours actually flying 11 hours for less pay. Overtime, if you like, has "killed" the LH contract.
Having equalised the salaries of the crew, rotating seniority could also be a reasonable option. The vast majority of those that have tried it, like it. If you don't think you'll like it, don't bid for it. Should have been done on the A330 - oh, hang on...
The comment above that everybody experiences instability in such a system is rubbish. The reality is that all experience stability most of the time, instead of the few taking it for the team for years on end in stagnant times.
I prefer to work in an environment where everyone "makes the coffee" now and then. The psychological improvements are staggering. It's a much nicer environment. Puts a smile on your face.
You could put the 787 on the 767 contract and no-one would be realistically too upset.
By my back of the envelope calculations, putting a 787 on an A330 pay rate - but without night credits or overtime - would roughly approximate the 767 salary, with the exception that all pilots would be paid about the same instead of the senior creaming the overtime.
You don't need overtime to "persuade" crew to complete the job. Crew will complete the job unless they are too fatigued to do so. No professional pilot would disrupt hundreds of pax unnecessarily.
Overtime has always been the absurd inequity in LH. To be paid so much more for sleeping 8 hours in a bunk has always puzzled those of us who fly 11 hours actually flying 11 hours for less pay. Overtime, if you like, has "killed" the LH contract.
Having equalised the salaries of the crew, rotating seniority could also be a reasonable option. The vast majority of those that have tried it, like it. If you don't think you'll like it, don't bid for it. Should have been done on the A330 - oh, hang on...
The comment above that everybody experiences instability in such a system is rubbish. The reality is that all experience stability most of the time, instead of the few taking it for the team for years on end in stagnant times.
I prefer to work in an environment where everyone "makes the coffee" now and then. The psychological improvements are staggering. It's a much nicer environment. Puts a smile on your face.
You don't need overtime to "persuade" crew to complete the job. Crew will complete the job unless they are too fatigued to do so. No professional pilot would disrupt hundreds of pax unnecessarily.
Yes, most crew will go the extra mile to save the passengers the inconvenience, but with no financial incentive, it only takes one crewmember to reject that option and in most cases that will be it for the whole crew.
Oh....and if I get 8 hours in the bunk, let alone sleep 8 hours, I shouldn't have been there in the first place. There are times, eastbound from Europe where I wish I could have 8 hours in the bunk to compensate for the time zone affected lack of consistent sleep I've had in the last 7 days. Should I get additional pay for that? I do and I'll leave it up to others to determine the merits of that portion of the award. Suffice to say, should it be removed, it will be those even more junior who find themselves with 3 DXB-LHR's a bid period.
Suffice to say, should it be removed, it will be those even more junior who find themselves with 3 DXB-LHR's a bid period.
IMO, the best result for the Company and the pilots under the LH award, would be to have the 787 under the existing award at A330 pay rates (perhaps with rotating seniority if majority vote). Any changes to conditions would be through the normal EBA process.
For some, the 787 would have the attractiveness of some overtime (the A330 has little), with the offset being rotating seniority. The A330 retains seniority for bidding to satisfy those who value seniority over every last dollar.
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B Scale for Qantas Long Haul (787-9)
Quote: "For me, its it's the "dollars make fatigue go away" thinking that is most worrying."
I didn't want to say that but there's a good reason it shouldn't exist right there.
I didn't want to say that but there's a good reason it shouldn't exist right there.
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Why would QF simply transfer legacy wages and conditions across to a new type when it’s a golden opportunity to start with a clean sheet of paper?
Take a look at the pay gap between mainline 737 crew and Jetconnect 737 crew and you will get some idea where the 787 operation will sit.
"Jetstar does not make money! Full Service carriers earn 2 to 2 and one half the revenue of a low cost carrier."
You may want to do a little more research and see where the majority of capital investment in the airline industry is heading.
Take a look at the pay gap between mainline 737 crew and Jetconnect 737 crew and you will get some idea where the 787 operation will sit.
"Jetstar does not make money! Full Service carriers earn 2 to 2 and one half the revenue of a low cost carrier."
You may want to do a little more research and see where the majority of capital investment in the airline industry is heading.
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Take a look at the pay gap between mainline 737 crew and Jetconnect 737 crew and you will get some idea where the 787 operation will sit.
If they were that way inclined they wouldn't be talking to AIPA they would be setting up a Jetconnect 787 operation out of NZ.
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Why would QF simply transfer legacy wages and conditions across to a new type when it’s a golden opportunity to start with a clean sheet of paper?
Why wouldn't they have done that with the A380?
Instead they offered a pay rise, on both those types.
Don't get me wrong, there were many QF pilots suggesting a clean sheet of paper with both those types, as they are now with the 787. But a clean sheet of paper doesn't stay very clean once the scribbling starts. And that goes for both sides of the negotiations. What tends to happen is once a muppet like Oldmeadow starts scribbling, the pilots give up and say well, we tried, I guess you'll just have to stick with ye olde LH contract. (EBA 8?)
Hey Professor, Read Doganis-Flying off Course, besides in the Qantas Group 2008, revenue 15.2 Billion, 2014, revenue 15.2 Billion. 40% more aircraft! The difference? Anyway where money is invested does not imply more should be thrown at LCCs. Spoken like a typical new age manager, all hype and no substance. Let's remember to grow the revenue and not just cut costs. 
Long-Haul LC is marginal at best. Back to the subject, New Aircraft, New Contract, get on with it!
Long-Haul LC is marginal at best. Back to the subject, New Aircraft, New Contract, get on with it!
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Nah it will be a Shorthaul type contract but with back of the clock long sectors so in my mind well behind current Shorthaul mainline contract...
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Patience
Cup of tea a bex and a good lie down gentleman.
Qantas pilots terms and conditions were not the cause of recent tough times nor will they be a saviour in the future.
Look at all the work groups that have accepted AT WORSTan 18 month pay freeze in their respective EBAs. That includes the TWU which has been a thorn in the side of QF for years.
QF will be making around a billion this year and two billion the year after. Alan will do nicely from his sub 80c options!
The Aussie dollar has fallen 30% and the fuel price by more than 50%.
As the fuel hedging unwinds QF will participate in most of this fall post January 2015. As the dollar has dropped, foreign capacity pulls out and yields increase for QF. Add to this QF make higher comparable fares in AUD from overseas.
The cost base in comparable USD terms has dropped 30%.
Strambi banged on about this when it was 1.15 USD. Well it's 77c and falling now so you can't have it both ways champ.
I'm sure AIPA will be patient. With good Feb results coming and the full year results being even better with greater exposure to the dropping fuel price, one must question the rush to get a deal by QF.
Wasn't that long ago they were happy to keep LH EBAs dragging on for years.
Perhaps we may be best to wait for bonus time when the record profits get announced.
Either way if QF offer a bad deal they risk a delay until profits and bonuses soar ever higher.
Qantas pilots terms and conditions were not the cause of recent tough times nor will they be a saviour in the future.
Look at all the work groups that have accepted AT WORSTan 18 month pay freeze in their respective EBAs. That includes the TWU which has been a thorn in the side of QF for years.
QF will be making around a billion this year and two billion the year after. Alan will do nicely from his sub 80c options!
The Aussie dollar has fallen 30% and the fuel price by more than 50%.
As the fuel hedging unwinds QF will participate in most of this fall post January 2015. As the dollar has dropped, foreign capacity pulls out and yields increase for QF. Add to this QF make higher comparable fares in AUD from overseas.
The cost base in comparable USD terms has dropped 30%.
Strambi banged on about this when it was 1.15 USD. Well it's 77c and falling now so you can't have it both ways champ.
I'm sure AIPA will be patient. With good Feb results coming and the full year results being even better with greater exposure to the dropping fuel price, one must question the rush to get a deal by QF.
Wasn't that long ago they were happy to keep LH EBAs dragging on for years.
Perhaps we may be best to wait for bonus time when the record profits get announced.
Either way if QF offer a bad deal they risk a delay until profits and bonuses soar ever higher.
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With lower fuel prices, wages once again, proportionately, become more attractive to contain.
Anyone who cannot see that the retirement of the 767 well before the 787 is introduced is an industrial manoeuvre to extinguish the long haul award, is living in outer space....
This will allow whoever they want to crew them, at the cheapeast rate possible, without any threat of transfer of business claim. Business 101.....
Prepare to crawl over each other for a spot.
Anyone who cannot see that the retirement of the 767 well before the 787 is introduced is an industrial manoeuvre to extinguish the long haul award, is living in outer space....
This will allow whoever they want to crew them, at the cheapeast rate possible, without any threat of transfer of business claim. Business 101.....
Prepare to crawl over each other for a spot.
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Keep dreaming.
With Oldmeadow Consulting now on the outer and excluded from EBA's expect some rubbish to start appearing here and other places in order to attempt to create some tension in Qantas groups. Without tension, Oldmeadow is irrelevant. $2.5m per year contract disappearing before our eyes.
With Oldmeadow Consulting now on the outer and excluded from EBA's expect some rubbish to start appearing here and other places in order to attempt to create some tension in Qantas groups. Without tension, Oldmeadow is irrelevant. $2.5m per year contract disappearing before our eyes.
CamelSniffer NO it can't be done. A new type operated by Qantas Airways Ltd will be within the bounds of a contact negotiated between QAL and AIPA. Read the Integration Agreement. If you don't know what it is use a Camel to find it.
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CamelSniffer NO it can't be done. A new type operated by Qantas Airways Ltd will be within the bounds of a contact negotiated between QAL and AIPA. Read the Integration Agreement. If you don't know what it is use a Camel to find it.
Flight: QF140 - "Operated by Jetconnect for Qantas."
Flight: QF1514 - "Operated by Qantaslink - National Jet Systems."
Flight: (Insert your favourite Qantas 787 service here) - Operated by ***** for Qantas."
How's your IA working out for you there? All red tail, all plastered with Qantas on the side to keep it feeling like home. Call me a pessimist but I wouldn't say "it can't be done."
* yes, I know this thread is about mainline getting the flying. I just can't see it happening, or at least not on the rates and conditions that mainline has come to expect.
Last edited by 2Plus; 10th Feb 2015 at 11:04.
Just something to be mindful of.
The training slots have been prebooked since 2013 going forwards to 2019 at the Singapore facility (Boeing training managers mouth). From a rough calculation it equalled about 30 frames from the numbers.
They are coming. It's just a question of who flys them and for how much.
The training slots have been prebooked since 2013 going forwards to 2019 at the Singapore facility (Boeing training managers mouth). From a rough calculation it equalled about 30 frames from the numbers.
They are coming. It's just a question of who flys them and for how much.