Qantas and the 787-900
Only 8 B789s for Mainline? 
Say it ain't so!
Say it ain't so!
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I asked Alan a direct question about the 787's in late December. His response was that his priority was to pay down debt.
I don't expect any announcement on a new type soon.
I don't expect any announcement on a new type soon.
A colleague asked Joyce a few weeks ago about the 789. His words" we can't afford not to get them".
To my surprise, he told me exactly how many airframes, when they'll be delivered, what routes they will fly, by whom and on what contract.
But I've changed my mind, I'm not going to post it here. So you'll just have to wait...
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The business case for 787-9s to mainline will be put to the Board in August, pending sign-off of the LH EBA before that time.
This was stated unequivocally by Andrew David to a direct question put to him by pilots at a meeting about two weeks ago.
AIPA is now in heavy negotiations with the Company regarding the EBA.
This was stated unequivocally by Andrew David to a direct question put to him by pilots at a meeting about two weeks ago.
AIPA is now in heavy negotiations with the Company regarding the EBA.
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No, but the activity and the deadline around the EBA is real. This hasn't happened in recent times. The deadline will mean that agreement with the AIPA negotiators will have to be reached by May.
So we will know soon.
So we will know soon.
Nunc est bibendum
Welcome back Borg. Haven't seen you for yonks. Still got the good goss I see!
He didn't happen to mention when that business case might suggest the airframes are set to arrive did he?
He didn't happen to mention when that business case might suggest the airframes are set to arrive did he?
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A few weeks ago The Prince of Darkness echoed the same plan.
EBA sign off is the last hurdle as the other two (International profitable and pay down of $1B in debt) appear to be over the line if things continue as they appear they will.
According to him, the plan is for 7 aircraft arriving 2017 and these will be the first of many more over subsequent years.
This also agrees with what AJ said when I quizzed him on why the EBA could possibly be the make or break as to whether or not the 789s would be bought. His response was that the bean counters hate variables. At the moment, the pilot pay is a variable that can't be neatly accounted for on a spreadsheet. Once this is known, regardless of what the figure is, then the nice neat spreadsheet can be presented to the board.
EBA sign off is the last hurdle as the other two (International profitable and pay down of $1B in debt) appear to be over the line if things continue as they appear they will.
According to him, the plan is for 7 aircraft arriving 2017 and these will be the first of many more over subsequent years.
This also agrees with what AJ said when I quizzed him on why the EBA could possibly be the make or break as to whether or not the 789s would be bought. His response was that the bean counters hate variables. At the moment, the pilot pay is a variable that can't be neatly accounted for on a spreadsheet. Once this is known, regardless of what the figure is, then the nice neat spreadsheet can be presented to the board.
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78's
Well, if our bean counters are that anal about their neat spreadsheets then that explains part of the reason as to the poor performance over the last ten years. Re pilot wages as a variable, how do they account for fuel price fluctuations. I call BS on the last few threads. Sign off the EBA so that we are unable to take PI A is my call.
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Well, if our bean counters are that anal about their neat spreadsheets then that explains part of the reason as to the poor performance over the last ten years. Re pilot wages as a variable, how do they account for fuel price fluctuations. I call BS on the last few threads. Sign off the EBA so that we are unable to take PI A is my call.
I personally believe as you do. Either the aircraft have already been ordered. Or the matter will be put to the board in August and pilot rate of pay is irrelevant.
Either way we're not being told so as to keep some advantage for the EA negotiations.
There are plenty of rumours doing the rounds about a former management pilot - now management stooge - setting up a third party crewing company.
Could be the same rumour being passed around or different rumours from different sources.
Make of it what you will.
Could be the same rumour being passed around or different rumours from different sources.
Make of it what you will.
From today's Sydney Morning Herald:
Qantas puts ambitious deadline on flagship pay deal for pilots
March 16, 2015 - 12:15AM
Matt O'Sullivan
Business Reporter
Qantas has presented an ambitious time-frame of just four months to seal a deal with its long-haul pilots for a new four-year wage agreement that will include pay and conditions for those flying Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner aircraft.
The airline wants productivity gains from the pilots who will eventually fly the yet-to-be purchased aircraft, to be included in the new enterprise agreement, which covers about 1700 staff. The company is also seeking an 18-month wage freeze to be part of what is one of its flagship labour deals.
In an unusual move, negotiators from the Australian and International Pilots' Association have signed a confidentiality agreement that prevents them from talking about the commercially sensitive aspects of a business case for new aircraft such as the next-generation 787-9.
The proposed productivity increases from pilots who would fly the new aircraft involves restructuring the way their pay is calculated. It would differ from the highly complex formulas used to determine the pay of pilots who fly other long-haul Qantas aircraft such as its A380s and Boeing 747 jumbos.
If adopted, it would result in pilots who fly new aircraft such as the 787-9 clocking up more so-called stick hours – the time when a plane is airborne – for about the same amount of money as they would gain if they were flying fewer hours on other planes in the Qantas international fleet. The proposed formula would be more similar to that used by airlines such as Emirates and Qantas's budget offshoot Jetstar.
However, the time-frame for reaching a deal covering one of the most influential parts of the Qantas workforce is considered highly ambitious, particularly given negotiations began just over a month ago.
"They want to try to wrap things up by the middle of the year," the pilots union president, Nathan Safe, said.
"But it is their timetable, not ours. Everyone wants to have an airline that is successful and profitable but we are not going to be rushed into selling away terms and conditions that we have built up over decades."
A Qantas spokesman described the negotiations with the pilots union as constructive and a "detailed process".
"As with other groups, we've been clear about the need for an 18-month wage freeze as part of the agreement," he said.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce made clear last month that reaching a deal with the pilots that allowed the "business case to work for us" was one of several conditions that needed to be met before the airline would commit to buying a batch of 787-9 aircraft. The other is to pay down $1 billion of debt this financial year.
Helping the case for the new jets, the airline's international flying operations swung to a pre-tax profit of $59 million in the first half, from a $262 million loss a year earlier, aided by a depreciation benefit following a large write- down in the value of its fleet late last year.
The long-haul pilots remain one of the last parts of Qantas's unionised workforce yet to agree to an 18-month wage freeze as part of management's plans to slash $2 billion in costs during three years and axe 5000 jobs.
While Jetstar's domestic pilots are yet to vote on a new enterprise agreement that includes an 18-month pay freeze, AIPA and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots believe their members are likely to accept the revised deal because it includes provisions that allow them to opt for changes to work practices in exchange for extra hourly pay.
The unions reached a new in-principle agreement last month with Jetstar management after its pilots overwhelmingly rejected a proposed deal late last year.
The prospect of Jetstar pilots settling will take the total number of Qantas Group staff to have accepted a wage freeze to about 8000. They include short-haul pilots and licensed aircraft engineers.
Jetstar pilots will vote on the deal later this month, and the outcome will be known on March 30.
Shares in Qantas broke through the $3 mark last week for the first time since October 2009. They closed up 4¢ at $3.06 on Friday.
March 16, 2015 - 12:15AM
Matt O'Sullivan
Business Reporter
Qantas has presented an ambitious time-frame of just four months to seal a deal with its long-haul pilots for a new four-year wage agreement that will include pay and conditions for those flying Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner aircraft.
The airline wants productivity gains from the pilots who will eventually fly the yet-to-be purchased aircraft, to be included in the new enterprise agreement, which covers about 1700 staff. The company is also seeking an 18-month wage freeze to be part of what is one of its flagship labour deals.
In an unusual move, negotiators from the Australian and International Pilots' Association have signed a confidentiality agreement that prevents them from talking about the commercially sensitive aspects of a business case for new aircraft such as the next-generation 787-9.
The proposed productivity increases from pilots who would fly the new aircraft involves restructuring the way their pay is calculated. It would differ from the highly complex formulas used to determine the pay of pilots who fly other long-haul Qantas aircraft such as its A380s and Boeing 747 jumbos.
If adopted, it would result in pilots who fly new aircraft such as the 787-9 clocking up more so-called stick hours – the time when a plane is airborne – for about the same amount of money as they would gain if they were flying fewer hours on other planes in the Qantas international fleet. The proposed formula would be more similar to that used by airlines such as Emirates and Qantas's budget offshoot Jetstar.
However, the time-frame for reaching a deal covering one of the most influential parts of the Qantas workforce is considered highly ambitious, particularly given negotiations began just over a month ago.
"They want to try to wrap things up by the middle of the year," the pilots union president, Nathan Safe, said.
"But it is their timetable, not ours. Everyone wants to have an airline that is successful and profitable but we are not going to be rushed into selling away terms and conditions that we have built up over decades."
A Qantas spokesman described the negotiations with the pilots union as constructive and a "detailed process".
"As with other groups, we've been clear about the need for an 18-month wage freeze as part of the agreement," he said.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce made clear last month that reaching a deal with the pilots that allowed the "business case to work for us" was one of several conditions that needed to be met before the airline would commit to buying a batch of 787-9 aircraft. The other is to pay down $1 billion of debt this financial year.
Helping the case for the new jets, the airline's international flying operations swung to a pre-tax profit of $59 million in the first half, from a $262 million loss a year earlier, aided by a depreciation benefit following a large write- down in the value of its fleet late last year.
The long-haul pilots remain one of the last parts of Qantas's unionised workforce yet to agree to an 18-month wage freeze as part of management's plans to slash $2 billion in costs during three years and axe 5000 jobs.
While Jetstar's domestic pilots are yet to vote on a new enterprise agreement that includes an 18-month pay freeze, AIPA and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots believe their members are likely to accept the revised deal because it includes provisions that allow them to opt for changes to work practices in exchange for extra hourly pay.
The unions reached a new in-principle agreement last month with Jetstar management after its pilots overwhelmingly rejected a proposed deal late last year.
The prospect of Jetstar pilots settling will take the total number of Qantas Group staff to have accepted a wage freeze to about 8000. They include short-haul pilots and licensed aircraft engineers.
Jetstar pilots will vote on the deal later this month, and the outcome will be known on March 30.
Shares in Qantas broke through the $3 mark last week for the first time since October 2009. They closed up 4¢ at $3.06 on Friday.