All Qantas Short Haul and Jetstar Pilots
Join Date: Nov 2011
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That right, the use of statistics, averages in particular can be highly misleading.
The CPI calculations are subject to frequent changes, substitutions and the infamous "hedonic adjustment".
The CPI is typically used by governments and employers as a benchmark for pensions/social security/entitlement & wage adjustments, and therefore have a vested interest in seeing that number as low as possible.
Australia is probably too small a market, but in the US one company, Shadow Stats has unpicked all these continuous modifications to the official figure, and converted it back to to the mid 1980. Surprise surprise, the official figure is half the actual figure based on previous calculation.
US example:
Suffice to say, the picture is NOT clear about changes to the cost of living over time for any given household. Probably the best that can be said about the CPI is it measures the change in the cost of survival, not the cost of living.gl
The CPI calculations are subject to frequent changes, substitutions and the infamous "hedonic adjustment".
The CPI is typically used by governments and employers as a benchmark for pensions/social security/entitlement & wage adjustments, and therefore have a vested interest in seeing that number as low as possible.
Australia is probably too small a market, but in the US one company, Shadow Stats has unpicked all these continuous modifications to the official figure, and converted it back to to the mid 1980. Surprise surprise, the official figure is half the actual figure based on previous calculation.
Suffice to say, the picture is NOT clear about changes to the cost of living over time for any given household. Probably the best that can be said about the CPI is it measures the change in the cost of survival, not the cost of living.gl
Lotsa, I do enjoy having my views challenged. If I can't find a reason that your position is wrong then I will revisit my own beliefs.
I was wrong to say that the RBA inflation target was 3%...that was something I took from a speech a few years ago and am happy to be corrected on. Officially it is in the 2-3% range, and the RBA has a 2003 speech on its website which explains the historical reasoning behind that target.
The discussion about CPI is a sideshow, however, and is a false premise that suggests that Jetstar pilots are paid a rate commensurate with their efforts and need only address inflation and not long term inequities.
Prior to Tigerair's recent spike in pay rates Carla Jayne was insistent that wage parity with Tiger was essential. How quickly that rhetoric was abandoned! Similarly, the company seeks to erode pilot's work/life balance while the same Carla Jayne famously holds down the CEO role on a carer's schedule.
Eventually the hypocrisy, greed and prevarications of management come home to roost. This would be one of those times.
I was wrong to say that the RBA inflation target was 3%...that was something I took from a speech a few years ago and am happy to be corrected on. Officially it is in the 2-3% range, and the RBA has a 2003 speech on its website which explains the historical reasoning behind that target.
The discussion about CPI is a sideshow, however, and is a false premise that suggests that Jetstar pilots are paid a rate commensurate with their efforts and need only address inflation and not long term inequities.
Prior to Tigerair's recent spike in pay rates Carla Jayne was insistent that wage parity with Tiger was essential. How quickly that rhetoric was abandoned! Similarly, the company seeks to erode pilot's work/life balance while the same Carla Jayne famously holds down the CEO role on a carer's schedule.
Eventually the hypocrisy, greed and prevarications of management come home to roost. This would be one of those times.
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LOL.
Now we are going for the conspiracy theories about vested interests and reliance on fringe dwelling economic outcasts. I love it. Please give us more.
I have a good plan for you JQ guys to get you where you wanna go:
1. Lots of PPRUNE and Aircrew rhetoric and chest thumping to motivate the troops and make the CEO and COO nervous.
2. Make as many unrealistic demands that are inconsistent with other employee groups as possible before your January deadline.
3. When step 2 fails to get rid of the pay freeze, initiate a PIA ballot allowing a wide range of economically harmful options.
4. In response to step 3, Alan Joyce will immediately develop a severe case of hyperhidrosis and may possibly even wet himself.
5. Make an 11th hour offer to Jayne that you will withdraw PIA if they get rid of the wage freeze.
6. Alan will immediately telephone Peter Owens, apologise for imposing the nasty and unfair wage freeze and will agree to first class travel, 3% pay rises, foot rubs and also to paying school fees at Geelong Grammar for up to 9 of each pilot's offspring until Jetstar Hong Kong is profitable, after which, he will also pay for their Arts degrees at Box Hill Tafe.
7. Let's meet up back here in March to celebrate.
Now we are going for the conspiracy theories about vested interests and reliance on fringe dwelling economic outcasts. I love it. Please give us more.
I have a good plan for you JQ guys to get you where you wanna go:
1. Lots of PPRUNE and Aircrew rhetoric and chest thumping to motivate the troops and make the CEO and COO nervous.
2. Make as many unrealistic demands that are inconsistent with other employee groups as possible before your January deadline.
3. When step 2 fails to get rid of the pay freeze, initiate a PIA ballot allowing a wide range of economically harmful options.
4. In response to step 3, Alan Joyce will immediately develop a severe case of hyperhidrosis and may possibly even wet himself.
5. Make an 11th hour offer to Jayne that you will withdraw PIA if they get rid of the wage freeze.
6. Alan will immediately telephone Peter Owens, apologise for imposing the nasty and unfair wage freeze and will agree to first class travel, 3% pay rises, foot rubs and also to paying school fees at Geelong Grammar for up to 9 of each pilot's offspring until Jetstar Hong Kong is profitable, after which, he will also pay for their Arts degrees at Box Hill Tafe.
7. Let's meet up back here in March to celebrate.
Last edited by lotsta; 11th Dec 2014 at 06:45.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Perhaps I will be proved wrong.
But Alan already has one "legacy" airline in the Domestic arena in the form of QF Shorthaul.
I'm positive he doesn't want a second.
I'm guessing Management will go to great lengths to ensure JQ remains a low cost carrier.
Wages are a large component of the low cost equation.
But Alan already has one "legacy" airline in the Domestic arena in the form of QF Shorthaul.
I'm positive he doesn't want a second.
I'm guessing Management will go to great lengths to ensure JQ remains a low cost carrier.
Wages are a large component of the low cost equation.
Well.... Total costs would be around 130 mil for QF shorthaul pilots annually. Get pretty good productivity out of that, too. Looks fairly cheap compared to writing out cheques for 57 mil in yen to keep a marginal proposition afloat. Guess Skymark/ Peach/ Vanilla etc haven't been told the only future in the Japan low cost market is Orange.
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Employers and their advocates HATE AWOTE because it demonstrates that other employees are getting larger pay rises. Or that the general workforce is earning proportionally more compared to their own employees.
That is why you will always see AWOTE figures obscured or shunned by these people and the right wing media.
That is why you will always see AWOTE figures obscured or shunned by these people and the right wing media.
2. Make as many unrealistic demands that are inconsistent with other employee groups as possible before your January deadline.
But continue with your angelic rhetoric, maybe you can do the math for me on this one. Your mate announced to the world in February
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said the pay freeze would apply until the company was profitable.
Joyce vows to stay on as $350m profit surge boosts Qantas stock
THE AUSTRALIAN DECEMBER 09, 2014 12:00AM
THE AUSTRALIAN DECEMBER 09, 2014 12:00AM
QF Short Haul isn't a legacy award. Far from it. Devised by Oldpasture after the 89 Dispute as an incentive based pay scheme the likes of which was never seen anywhere prior. Master Caution you should know better.
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Interesting debate.
CPI is the accepted measure of inflation. Its an indicator of the average rise in the cost of living for Australian consumers.
AWE is a measure of the growth in weekly earnings. It is a measure of wage inflation but not inflation in the cost of living. However AWE will track CPI - rising above CPI in times of strong economic performance and falling below CPI in times of weak economic performance.
But both CPI and AWE growth are less than 3% at the moment.
Over the next five years it is highly like that AWE growth will fall below CPI in Australia. We are facing a period of wage deflation.
CPI is the accepted measure of inflation. Its an indicator of the average rise in the cost of living for Australian consumers.
AWE is a measure of the growth in weekly earnings. It is a measure of wage inflation but not inflation in the cost of living. However AWE will track CPI - rising above CPI in times of strong economic performance and falling below CPI in times of weak economic performance.
But both CPI and AWE growth are less than 3% at the moment.
Over the next five years it is highly like that AWE growth will fall below CPI in Australia. We are facing a period of wage deflation.
Says who? Reckon Rupert will be able to continue to run the political agenda of this country from the grave? Real wage deflation would simply hasten the electorate back to Labor, and encourage the far left among them to roll back IR laws in this country right back to 1985.
But what do you care? As Alan goes so will go Olivia, and so too you. Bye.
But what do you care? As Alan goes so will go Olivia, and so too you. Bye.
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QF Short Haul isn't a legacy award. Far from it. Devised by Oldpasture after the 89 Dispute as an incentive based pay scheme the likes of which was never seen anywhere prior.
I provided the "legacy" comment for the following reasons.
When JQ was first started & in the infancy of it's operations I was repeatedly told that JQ was the "way of the future". That Qantas conditions were "legacy" and Qantas would die on the vine unless pilots became more cost efficient.
Its taken a bit longer than I first thought, however now the SJS & fast promotions have worn off it's of no surprise JQ pilots want parity with other jet operators around the company.
It will never happen.
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Forget this debate and keep voting NO, it's not the end of the world chaps, but it is the only way to make QF management squirm, No, No, and No.......keep all the EBA'S open and that is the road to unity, forget all the crap that is basically white noise....I noticed another crap deal has been authorised for Shorthaul to vote on, I really hope the troops have the balls to vote it down even harder than the last one....time will tell..
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Angle of Attack.
Unfortunately Unity will never happen.
The Qantas Group have established two camps of pilots with their own vested interests.
One way of establishing Unity is a group seniority list between JQ & QF based on date of joining. This will never happen. Ever.
JQ pilots asking QF pilots for support is effectively asking a QF pilot who's potentially been in the group longer and languishing in a lower rank. To support a JQ pilot who been fast tracked for promotion in the group for initially accepting lower terms and conditions to the detriment of the QF pilot.
Alternatively. Asking a JQ pilot to support a QF pilot to improve mainline terms & conditions only creates a greater divide in terms & conditions.
It's nobodies fault. Its just how it is.
What will happen. Is JQ and QF pilots will negotiate their own lot in life based on the leverage in their own silo'd business unit.
Unfortunately Unity will never happen.
The Qantas Group have established two camps of pilots with their own vested interests.
One way of establishing Unity is a group seniority list between JQ & QF based on date of joining. This will never happen. Ever.
JQ pilots asking QF pilots for support is effectively asking a QF pilot who's potentially been in the group longer and languishing in a lower rank. To support a JQ pilot who been fast tracked for promotion in the group for initially accepting lower terms and conditions to the detriment of the QF pilot.
Alternatively. Asking a JQ pilot to support a QF pilot to improve mainline terms & conditions only creates a greater divide in terms & conditions.
It's nobodies fault. Its just how it is.
What will happen. Is JQ and QF pilots will negotiate their own lot in life based on the leverage in their own silo'd business unit.
I tend to agree with Master Caution.
For 10 years JQ has grown under a low cost model. Pilots and everything about JQ has been low cost. For 10 years pilots have accepted and eaten the **** sandwich because "it was a job" or "I'll have 4 bars in a couple of years" or "I get thousands in day off payments". I don't begrudge any JQ pilot for this decision.
Now that JQ seems to be moving into a mature phase instead of growth, it seems pilots are now beginning to taste the **** sandwich that some have been eating for a decade.
We all have a right to fight for terms and conditions. I support the JQ no vote and fight as a pilot in this sometimes wretched industry. I support the merging of JQ and QF seniority numbers based on DOJ. However, a JQ pilot calling for support from QF pilots is akin to asking someone to kiss you whilst your mouth is full of.....well....a **** sandwich.
Just like those at QF have done, and are continuing to do....if you don't like it you are going to have to leave, because by voting no, your lot still isn't going to change enough to take away that horrible taste.
Good luck.
For 10 years JQ has grown under a low cost model. Pilots and everything about JQ has been low cost. For 10 years pilots have accepted and eaten the **** sandwich because "it was a job" or "I'll have 4 bars in a couple of years" or "I get thousands in day off payments". I don't begrudge any JQ pilot for this decision.
Now that JQ seems to be moving into a mature phase instead of growth, it seems pilots are now beginning to taste the **** sandwich that some have been eating for a decade.
We all have a right to fight for terms and conditions. I support the JQ no vote and fight as a pilot in this sometimes wretched industry. I support the merging of JQ and QF seniority numbers based on DOJ. However, a JQ pilot calling for support from QF pilots is akin to asking someone to kiss you whilst your mouth is full of.....well....a **** sandwich.
Just like those at QF have done, and are continuing to do....if you don't like it you are going to have to leave, because by voting no, your lot still isn't going to change enough to take away that horrible taste.
Good luck.
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A merging of the seniority list will NEVER happen. QF even laughed at QLink drivers when they asked to be put on the BOTTOM of the seniority list (allowing progression into mainline SO positions). Allowing JQ drivers in based on DOJ is even more heinous.
Forget. It.
Forget. It.
A proposal was put to the Qantas board in 1999 for the pilots who joined Qantaslink would receive a mainline seniority number but it was rejected by Ian Oldmeadow who said, and I quote "pilots united they are in charge, Pilots divided we are in charge". Nothing has changed! Oldmeadow has cost this company upward of $500 million yet he still is around. What the?
Oldmeadow has cost this company upward of $500 million yet he still is around. What the?
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Back in 99... That's a rather long time from there and now.
Here's a hypothetical: management says to QLink, 'boys and girls, because QF and JQ are too expensive you guys will operate the new domestic aircraft to replace the 738s and 320s.'
Now, how are QLink blokes to react? We would be scum of the earth (which to be honest is how we're viewed by our mainline colleagues now) if we accepted on terms lower than what QF and JQ are fighting for. But if we said 'no, mainline should operate them because that's how a pilot should be paid.' QF blokes would just carry on, the battle won and the QLink blokes are left to viewed as the illegitimate back door sprog that just rocks up to events when it suits the family.
In honesty, we would probably accept less conditions. Why? Because there is no incentive to say get screwed. If we had an avenue of progression, the young guns would want to maintain those fantastic conditions (and not accept anything less if offered) because they hope to eventually enjoy those said conditions by virtue of progression.
VA has set the precedent - time for QF to step up to the plate too.
Fuel -Off
Here's a hypothetical: management says to QLink, 'boys and girls, because QF and JQ are too expensive you guys will operate the new domestic aircraft to replace the 738s and 320s.'
Now, how are QLink blokes to react? We would be scum of the earth (which to be honest is how we're viewed by our mainline colleagues now) if we accepted on terms lower than what QF and JQ are fighting for. But if we said 'no, mainline should operate them because that's how a pilot should be paid.' QF blokes would just carry on, the battle won and the QLink blokes are left to viewed as the illegitimate back door sprog that just rocks up to events when it suits the family.
In honesty, we would probably accept less conditions. Why? Because there is no incentive to say get screwed. If we had an avenue of progression, the young guns would want to maintain those fantastic conditions (and not accept anything less if offered) because they hope to eventually enjoy those said conditions by virtue of progression.
VA has set the precedent - time for QF to step up to the plate too.
Fuel -Off