Qantaslink PH base closes. AD opens
I don't see it as any different to any other vacancy notice.
If there's 1 400 CAPT slot in BNE, and the top 5 eligible people bid, only the highest gets it. You don't give all 5 a Command, and then kick off the bottom 4 400 Capt's.
The training dept doesn't have anywhere near the resources to retain 50-100 pilots. Not to mention the cost, which is the whole reason we started down this path to begin with.
If there's 1 400 CAPT slot in BNE, and the top 5 eligible people bid, only the highest gets it. You don't give all 5 a Command, and then kick off the bottom 4 400 Capt's.
The training dept doesn't have anywhere near the resources to retain 50-100 pilots. Not to mention the cost, which is the whole reason we started down this path to begin with.
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I speak with no authority, but, it is becoming apparent to me that anyone on the seniority list below the most senior CS Q300 Captain is not safe.
When X number of pilots are bidding for X number of positions, the process is straight forward.
As soon as anything else happens, forced fleet changes, forced basings, reduction in establishment numbers and/or redundancy etc etc, Seniority, irrespective of rank, base or fleet defines the outcome.
Irrespective of rank, base or fleet, there, potentially is the fly in the ointment.
Very confusing and I am glad I am not the one trying to slot the whole process together.
Happy to be proven wrong.
When X number of pilots are bidding for X number of positions, the process is straight forward.
As soon as anything else happens, forced fleet changes, forced basings, reduction in establishment numbers and/or redundancy etc etc, Seniority, irrespective of rank, base or fleet defines the outcome.
Irrespective of rank, base or fleet, there, potentially is the fly in the ointment.
Very confusing and I am glad I am not the one trying to slot the whole process together.
Happy to be proven wrong.
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Josh is 100% correct. This isn't a straight up bid. Senior crew cannot be FORCED to move when a more junior FO has a position in the same base. All freezes are off. Seniority is preserved. Will be a big blow to some junior guys. If you don't believe me ring the AFAP.
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I don't see it as any different to any other vacancy notice.
So can a Perth Captain take the position of a SY Captain junior to them? I was under the impression that a certain number of commands would become available in Sydney and everybody can bid on them, if the PH skippers happened to be senior enough for a position then so be it, but they can't take the spot of someone else already in Sydney purely because they're Jr to them.
The EBA doesn't explicitly state any of this. Like everything in it, it's open to interpretation.
Does 57.4.1 (c) and (d) refer to the whole company? Or only those affected by the reduction of fleet? In this case PH 400 and Sunstate 300 drivers?
It doesn't say. So people will interpret it the way they want which is generally the way which benefits them. I suspect 57.5 will come into play on this one.
I'm just as confused as the next bloke but as stated above I can't see the company being able (or willing) to re-train so many people.
The EBA doesn't explicitly state any of this. Like everything in it, it's open to interpretation.
Does 57.4.1 (c) and (d) refer to the whole company? Or only those affected by the reduction of fleet? In this case PH 400 and Sunstate 300 drivers?
It doesn't say. So people will interpret it the way they want which is generally the way which benefits them. I suspect 57.5 will come into play on this one.
I'm just as confused as the next bloke but as stated above I can't see the company being able (or willing) to re-train so many people.
Last edited by Fonz121; 4th Dec 2014 at 05:57. Reason: Grammmmar
My understanding is that those clauses only come into play with pilots who are deemed to be in surplus once the chairs are all filled.
For example, what if EVERY 300 Captain in BNE bids for the 400? There's no spot unless some come up as a consequence of other movements or the company exercise some EOI slots. So does the company give a 400 spot to every Capt on the 300 that bid who has seniority to hold one, making X amount of BNE 400 Capt's now surplus?
Or does the company fill what positions it can on the vacancy notice. Those capt's who don't get their bid and are surplus to requirements on the 300 get to bid for 400 FO slots if they desire?
No one has come out and said how the whole process will work.
For example, what if EVERY 300 Captain in BNE bids for the 400? There's no spot unless some come up as a consequence of other movements or the company exercise some EOI slots. So does the company give a 400 spot to every Capt on the 300 that bid who has seniority to hold one, making X amount of BNE 400 Capt's now surplus?
Or does the company fill what positions it can on the vacancy notice. Those capt's who don't get their bid and are surplus to requirements on the 300 get to bid for 400 FO slots if they desire?
No one has come out and said how the whole process will work.
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This is so confusing. Here is my take on it (which is probably wrong):
Lets say there are 8 Q400 vacancies as per the EOI, and 10 surplus 300 Captains. The top 8 will be awarded Q400 commands as per the vacancies, and then two of the most junior Q400 captains will be displaced as per 57.4.1 (c). Or possibly, the most two junior 300 captains will be demoted to FO's, which would actually be the more logical solution. However, if there are no FO positions available, then two junior FO's will either be displaced or terminated.
My brain hurts.
Lets say there are 8 Q400 vacancies as per the EOI, and 10 surplus 300 Captains. The top 8 will be awarded Q400 commands as per the vacancies, and then two of the most junior Q400 captains will be displaced as per 57.4.1 (c). Or possibly, the most two junior 300 captains will be demoted to FO's, which would actually be the more logical solution. However, if there are no FO positions available, then two junior FO's will either be displaced or terminated.
My brain hurts.
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Redundancy and forced displacement are based on seniority, period. That's what seniority is. It secures the position of the longer serving pilot when there is a reduction in establishment. Pilots don't displace pilots, the company applies the above mentioned clause to deal with surpluses of personnel if required.
SN
SN
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If you read the latest briefing from the AFAP, the question was asked, is this reduction of establishment?
Answer: YES (from the company)
So, the scenario is this. There are around 23 positions in Adelaide to be filled. IF they are not filled by the current process of advertised vacancies. The company may direct pilots, irrespective of base or fleet and in order of reverse seniority, to take whatever vacancies are remaining. From there of there are still excess numbers at a base, reverse redundancy may apply at the companies discretion.
I doubt redundancy will be needed however compulsory relocation looks likely.
SN
Answer: YES (from the company)
So, the scenario is this. There are around 23 positions in Adelaide to be filled. IF they are not filled by the current process of advertised vacancies. The company may direct pilots, irrespective of base or fleet and in order of reverse seniority, to take whatever vacancies are remaining. From there of there are still excess numbers at a base, reverse redundancy may apply at the companies discretion.
I doubt redundancy will be needed however compulsory relocation looks likely.
SN
The 400 fleet isn't being reduced in QLD, therefore 57.4.1 (c) doesn't apply to the 400.
Another point, just because there are 8 400 slots, doesn't mean that the top 8 300 capt's get first go. The top 8 who meet the command req get them. That inclides any 400 Capt from CNS and any BN 400 FO's who may be higher up than a 300 capt.
Another point, just because there are 8 400 slots, doesn't mean that the top 8 300 capt's get first go. The top 8 who meet the command req get them. That inclides any 400 Capt from CNS and any BN 400 FO's who may be higher up than a 300 capt.
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Another key word
"Employment opportunities" = important term
It's in section 57.4.1 in which sub sections a,b,c and d apply.
Employment opportunities means vacancies - not somebody else's job.
If you could bid for somebody else's job because you were more senior, that means that people would've been bumping other people way before this announcement was made last week.
This would make it continuously open slather and the company would be forever doing conversion/upgrade training...before the announcement was made.
57.4.1 is for vacancies.
It's in section 57.4.1 in which sub sections a,b,c and d apply.
Employment opportunities means vacancies - not somebody else's job.
If you could bid for somebody else's job because you were more senior, that means that people would've been bumping other people way before this announcement was made last week.
This would make it continuously open slather and the company would be forever doing conversion/upgrade training...before the announcement was made.
57.4.1 is for vacancies.
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You can't bid for someone else's job or displace another pilot. Only the company can displace someone, make them redundant or demote them in accordance with that clause. Pilots don't displace pilots.
The clause must be read as it is, nothing else is implied.
SN
The clause must be read as it is, nothing else is implied.
SN
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I think you're reading the sub sections out of context.
The sub sections from 57.4.1 only apply if the section 57.4.1 is valid.
For 57.4.1 to be valid, there must be open vacancies.
For example, imagine a 6 year FO who just met command requirement. He/she can't go and then take a command position from anyone who was employed in the six years prior and demote them to FO - just because they are more senior. Again, before the announcement was made.
57.4.1 says "opportunities" - if this word was omitted, the above scenario could/would occur. But it does say opportunities, so this means vacancies.
I'm not sure what you mean by pilots don't displace pilots, the company does? I can't find it in the EBA.
The sub sections from 57.4.1 only apply if the section 57.4.1 is valid.
For 57.4.1 to be valid, there must be open vacancies.
For example, imagine a 6 year FO who just met command requirement. He/she can't go and then take a command position from anyone who was employed in the six years prior and demote them to FO - just because they are more senior. Again, before the announcement was made.
57.4.1 says "opportunities" - if this word was omitted, the above scenario could/would occur. But it does say opportunities, so this means vacancies.
I'm not sure what you mean by pilots don't displace pilots, the company does? I can't find it in the EBA.
Last edited by CaptainInsaneO; 4th Dec 2014 at 11:17. Reason: .
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The company will avoid jobs losses if at all possible, even if they have to carry extra numbers for a while, they have said this and there is no reason to doubt that statement. It's not worth them making 10 people redundant now just to put another 10 on again in 12 months. But they do need to crew the Adelaide base and if that can be done by the current voluntary bidding process then that will avoid any pain for those who do not wish to go there. It may also be an opportunity for some more junior captains to stay in command.
SN
PS: CaptainInsanO, I recommend you contact your base rep or union (AFAP) for clarification.
SN
PS: CaptainInsanO, I recommend you contact your base rep or union (AFAP) for clarification.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0161; 4th Dec 2014 at 11:09. Reason: PS
