Virgin takes full control of Tigerair
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Lastly, VA/NZ could put a majority of their frequent flyer seats on TT services. Those using ff pts/miles are used to compromise.
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Use FF points on TT. Yeah, just ask the QF punters how much they enjoyed being punted onto Jetstar. Remind me again BNEA320, how much of YOUR money you'd be prepared to put into these ideas of yours?
Tiger doesn't and won't offer connections, not even with themselves. Tiger Singapore connects with Scoot. With SIA having majority interest in Virgin (and probably behind all these Tiger deals), you might see Tiger Australia connecting with Scoot.
Forget Bali. AirAsia X Indonesia is about to do flood the market. Perth to Bali is within range but you are up against AirAsia with half a dozen flights, why bother.
Nadi might work, Christchurch another possibility. Don't forget Tiger only has three bases, MEL/SYD/BNE.
Samoa won't happen, Virgin has a contract with the Government.
Forget new routes, they clearly stated its all about Tiger picking up Virgin routes. Its all about Virgin exiting these routes, Tiger going in, picking up the traffic and making money of the current traffic, rather than building up new routes which can take years to make any money.
Forget Bali. AirAsia X Indonesia is about to do flood the market. Perth to Bali is within range but you are up against AirAsia with half a dozen flights, why bother.
Nadi might work, Christchurch another possibility. Don't forget Tiger only has three bases, MEL/SYD/BNE.
Samoa won't happen, Virgin has a contract with the Government.
Forget new routes, they clearly stated its all about Tiger picking up Virgin routes. Its all about Virgin exiting these routes, Tiger going in, picking up the traffic and making money of the current traffic, rather than building up new routes which can take years to make any money.
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JohnMcGhie -
How many years ago was that? The only airline now flying non-stop CNS-PER or PER-CNS is JQ. I flew JQ PER-CNS 6 weeks ago and there's little difference between JQ and TigerAir. I also flew TigerAir CNS-BNE 2 weeks later, and the experience was little different to JQ. They both largely run late, they both suffer from disorganisation, and they both give pax the bare minimum. On the JQ flight PER-CNS, we weren't even offered water - not even to buy.
I must grudgingly admit, the JQ flight PER-CNS was on time (1st time ever, in my JQ experience), but I would also guess being a full-on red-eye flight, helped in that regard.
I flew with QF, BNE-PER a couple of weeks later again, they were 2 hrs late, and we had bugger-all entertainment, thanks to the use of a former JQ Airbus (the Capt did actually apologise for the lack of entertainment due to an upgrade that is well behind schedule, apparently).
I've flown VA, TT, JQ and QF, multiple times in the last year and I'm getting about the same level of treatment from all of them. There's some pretty ordinary levels of performance in the airline industry currently.
I'm having trouble actually remembering the last time I flew where I really enjoyed the flight, where it was on time, and where there wasn't some level of disorganisation.
I felt sorry for the poor sods trundling onto a Tiger flight in Cairns for a non-stop to Perth. But Sydney to Melbourne, why not?
I must grudgingly admit, the JQ flight PER-CNS was on time (1st time ever, in my JQ experience), but I would also guess being a full-on red-eye flight, helped in that regard.
I flew with QF, BNE-PER a couple of weeks later again, they were 2 hrs late, and we had bugger-all entertainment, thanks to the use of a former JQ Airbus (the Capt did actually apologise for the lack of entertainment due to an upgrade that is well behind schedule, apparently).
I've flown VA, TT, JQ and QF, multiple times in the last year and I'm getting about the same level of treatment from all of them. There's some pretty ordinary levels of performance in the airline industry currently.
I'm having trouble actually remembering the last time I flew where I really enjoyed the flight, where it was on time, and where there wasn't some level of disorganisation.
Australian domestic airlines are in a race to the bottom as far as the customer is concerned, trying to outdo each other as to who is the cheapest and nastiest.
Soon it will be just like the USA with all their airlines except jetBlue scoring a 3* Skytrax rating.
Soon it will be just like the USA with all their airlines except jetBlue scoring a 3* Skytrax rating.
Well it won't be Raro... A320 would have to do Aust-AKL-RAR, then overnight the crew. VANZ don't overnight due costs... so what are the chances TT would?! I would hazard a bet that VANZ crew are probably a hell of alot cheaper than Aust based TT crew.
Same with Tonga, it would have to be a return out of Aust, but then there would be no AKL-Tonga connection unless you overnight AKL. But AKL ain't cheap for overnights, almost on par with BNE cost wise.
Samoa is a closed shop with Virgin Samoa. Why would you cannibalize your own market on that route? Once biz class comes to that route, it would probably be like the old Poly days. Samoan Government very happy...
There were rumors of Jet* starting a Samoa route or RAR route.
As far as VANZ being losers in this.. the evidence does not back this up. Integrated into VAI, and the NZ bases aren't going anywhere. Business class coming to the Tasman next year. Crew numbers are stable, recruiting within the group now for replacements. Everyone going through VAI integration sim training and ground courses. No redundancies from line tech or cabin crew. Different story for management. Yes with biz class, you expect your aircraft to earn more for the outlay so marginal routes will be axed quicker. But you still need to be flying those aircraft.
Nadi services are now "full service" with a "meal" included just like Bali. VANZ might lose a few Fiji services, but I would say it's a safe bet that they do not want to pull VANZ off the routes because it competes with Fiji Airways full service product. I would expect to see TT on the SYD-NAN route to compete with Jetstar's service.
I'm also guessing to see TT Aust service the PER/DRW-SIN route connecting to the greater TT South East Asia network.
As for Palmy North / Hamilton.. who knows. Low cost worked in those places once, aka Freedom. It depends on what Uncle Koru has to say about it considering they have a 26% share and a board seat in the whole kaboole.
The Tasman though is a bloodbath. 13 odd carriers battling it out. You need to either have a really good product (Emirates, Air NZ), be real cheap (J*) or fly city pairs that have a point of difference like ZQN (Jetconnect/VANZ)
Same with Tonga, it would have to be a return out of Aust, but then there would be no AKL-Tonga connection unless you overnight AKL. But AKL ain't cheap for overnights, almost on par with BNE cost wise.
Samoa is a closed shop with Virgin Samoa. Why would you cannibalize your own market on that route? Once biz class comes to that route, it would probably be like the old Poly days. Samoan Government very happy...
There were rumors of Jet* starting a Samoa route or RAR route.
As far as VANZ being losers in this.. the evidence does not back this up. Integrated into VAI, and the NZ bases aren't going anywhere. Business class coming to the Tasman next year. Crew numbers are stable, recruiting within the group now for replacements. Everyone going through VAI integration sim training and ground courses. No redundancies from line tech or cabin crew. Different story for management. Yes with biz class, you expect your aircraft to earn more for the outlay so marginal routes will be axed quicker. But you still need to be flying those aircraft.
Nadi services are now "full service" with a "meal" included just like Bali. VANZ might lose a few Fiji services, but I would say it's a safe bet that they do not want to pull VANZ off the routes because it competes with Fiji Airways full service product. I would expect to see TT on the SYD-NAN route to compete with Jetstar's service.
I'm also guessing to see TT Aust service the PER/DRW-SIN route connecting to the greater TT South East Asia network.
As for Palmy North / Hamilton.. who knows. Low cost worked in those places once, aka Freedom. It depends on what Uncle Koru has to say about it considering they have a 26% share and a board seat in the whole kaboole.
The Tasman though is a bloodbath. 13 odd carriers battling it out. You need to either have a really good product (Emirates, Air NZ), be real cheap (J*) or fly city pairs that have a point of difference like ZQN (Jetconnect/VANZ)
Also ROT is losing their nonstop from Australia. Maybe they'd be better off with TT, than no flights at all.
Rotorua to Sydney flights canned | Stuff.co.nz
Similar thing happened to HLZ, apparently there are 5 or so councils that have a share in HLZ airport. Only two wanted to keep paying the Virgin the subsidy to keep flying in hence why services pulled.
15L - you're on the money.
320- I think you're getting a bit excited. VANZ has a lower cost base than TT, esp now under Vai. Anz and Virgin also have obligations not to decrease Tasman flying.
I think 15L is correct. You will see TT do some additional Fiji work to keep jq in their place and from attacking virgin from behind. Also a few Tasman leisure routes, so may Sind dud, Chc. Bne, ool. But any decrease by VANZ has to be put elsewhere on the Tasman.
TT likely to Bali also but in tandem with vai.
320- I think you're getting a bit excited. VANZ has a lower cost base than TT, esp now under Vai. Anz and Virgin also have obligations not to decrease Tasman flying.
I think 15L is correct. You will see TT do some additional Fiji work to keep jq in their place and from attacking virgin from behind. Also a few Tasman leisure routes, so may Sind dud, Chc. Bne, ool. But any decrease by VANZ has to be put elsewhere on the Tasman.
TT likely to Bali also but in tandem with vai.
Anyway you cut it, Australia can and should only support two airlines. That's the only way for it to be profitable. And no I don't mean gouging the public.
The unfortunate component is the multitude of levels of management, including accountants, economists, lawyers, and analysts that think they are justified in this mess, that makes up the definition of senior management within this country.
The unfortunate component is the multitude of levels of management, including accountants, economists, lawyers, and analysts that think they are justified in this mess, that makes up the definition of senior management within this country.
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The only way TT will do Bali, is from Perth. Then, at the bottom of the pile you're competing with Air Asia. And you can't.
I am sure VA would want to retain a Business Class option on DPS flights as it is fairly popular and apparently mostly nearly full. Replacing these flights with Tiger would be self-destruction on VA's behalf. Tiger would be a last choice for most people, the damage to their reputation has already been done.
There are some very upmarket resorts and villas in Bali, so not everyone travelling there is a 'bogan' looking for a LCC, money to be made full service and with J class product.
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True, there are lost of corporate jets flying in to Bali, which explains why Ngurah Rai airport recently built a Business Jet apron and terminal on the south side of the runway.
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TT's reputation isn't damaged. It's all in the minds of QF staff !!!
Grounding was very dodgy.
Plenty of people fly TT & find stuff all difference from JQ, VA & QF domestically.
Believe what you want, at your peril.
Grounding was very dodgy.
Plenty of people fly TT & find stuff all difference from JQ, VA & QF domestically.
Believe what you want, at your peril.
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QF punters would rather get a ff ticket on any airline, than no ff ticket.
TT will take over VA loss making routes & loss making days of the week, freeing up VA aircraft.
Look at SYD/HNL. QF & JQ both do it.
TT will take over VA loss making routes & loss making days of the week, freeing up VA aircraft.
Look at SYD/HNL. QF & JQ both do it.
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TT will use VA back office & will therefore have much lower costs than anyone else in the region !!!
They may even use Menzies staff at airports. Am sure that VA will get a better deal for check in staff, handling, if doing all VA/NZ/TT on one contract.
They may even use Menzies staff at airports. Am sure that VA will get a better deal for check in staff, handling, if doing all VA/NZ/TT on one contract.
Virgin to keep Qantas guessing on Tigerair's international ambitions
Date
October 20, 2014 - 12:15AM
Virgin Australia will consider adding aircraft types beyond the current A320s to the fleet of budget carrier Tigerair Australia as part of a potential international expansion that would help it to better compete against Jetstar, says Virgin chief executive John Borghetti.
Virgin hasagreed to buy the 40 per cent of Tigerair it did not already own from Singapore-based Tiger Airways Holdings for $1, with the deal including rights needed to fly internationally.
"This international licence ... is a weapon in our armoury we could choose to use against Jetstar in short-haul [international] travel, just like we do domestically, which means that we bring further competition," Mr Borghetti said.
Tigerair's ambitions might not be limited to using its existing fleet of 13 A320s, he said, saying it would be possible to transfer Boeing 737s from Virgin to Tigerair or to add other aircraft types to the mix.
He ruled out the prospect of Tigerair selling its fleet of A320s and replacing them with 737s to give it commonality with the Virgin short-haul fleet.
"The benefit of [not having a common fleet] is you have two manufacturers that will compete with each other for sales," he said. "We have no plans – I mean zero, zilch of getting rid of all the A320s and moving to 737s in the Tiger fleet. Or vice versa."
To fly overseas, Virgin still needs Foreign Investment Review Board approvals, bilateral air traffic rights, airport slots and approvals from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).
Mr Borghetti has been reluctant to provide public guidance on capacity and growth plans because he wants to keep rival Qantas Airways in the dark about growth plans.
But potential short-haul international destinations for Tigerair would include Bali, Fiji, Phuket and New Zealand.
Virgin shares are majority foreign owned, but its international division is a separate unlisted entity with a separate board to ensure it maintains Australian control to comply with the Air Navigation Act.
It is unclear whether Tigerair will need to sit inside the international subsidiary for it to obtain its own international traffic rights.
CBA analyst Matt Crowe said he believed Virgin would need to use the $336 million of proceeds from the recent sale of 35 per cent of its loyalty program to private equity group Affinity Equity Partners to fund further operating losses now that it had acquired the rest of Tigerair.
Mr Crowe said he expected Virgin would report a loss before tax of $188 million this financial year, including the Tigerair losses.
Read more: Virgin to keep Qantas guessing on Tigerair's international ambitions
Date
October 20, 2014 - 12:15AM
Virgin Australia will consider adding aircraft types beyond the current A320s to the fleet of budget carrier Tigerair Australia as part of a potential international expansion that would help it to better compete against Jetstar, says Virgin chief executive John Borghetti.
Virgin hasagreed to buy the 40 per cent of Tigerair it did not already own from Singapore-based Tiger Airways Holdings for $1, with the deal including rights needed to fly internationally.
"This international licence ... is a weapon in our armoury we could choose to use against Jetstar in short-haul [international] travel, just like we do domestically, which means that we bring further competition," Mr Borghetti said.
Tigerair's ambitions might not be limited to using its existing fleet of 13 A320s, he said, saying it would be possible to transfer Boeing 737s from Virgin to Tigerair or to add other aircraft types to the mix.
He ruled out the prospect of Tigerair selling its fleet of A320s and replacing them with 737s to give it commonality with the Virgin short-haul fleet.
"The benefit of [not having a common fleet] is you have two manufacturers that will compete with each other for sales," he said. "We have no plans – I mean zero, zilch of getting rid of all the A320s and moving to 737s in the Tiger fleet. Or vice versa."
To fly overseas, Virgin still needs Foreign Investment Review Board approvals, bilateral air traffic rights, airport slots and approvals from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).
Mr Borghetti has been reluctant to provide public guidance on capacity and growth plans because he wants to keep rival Qantas Airways in the dark about growth plans.
But potential short-haul international destinations for Tigerair would include Bali, Fiji, Phuket and New Zealand.
Virgin shares are majority foreign owned, but its international division is a separate unlisted entity with a separate board to ensure it maintains Australian control to comply with the Air Navigation Act.
It is unclear whether Tigerair will need to sit inside the international subsidiary for it to obtain its own international traffic rights.
CBA analyst Matt Crowe said he believed Virgin would need to use the $336 million of proceeds from the recent sale of 35 per cent of its loyalty program to private equity group Affinity Equity Partners to fund further operating losses now that it had acquired the rest of Tigerair.
Mr Crowe said he expected Virgin would report a loss before tax of $188 million this financial year, including the Tigerair losses.
Read more: Virgin to keep Qantas guessing on Tigerair's international ambitions
Or maybe.........A330's.....
Good luck folks...this has all the makings of another QF/JQ.
I sincerely hope for those at VA that it does not turn out the same way. There is nothing worse than seeing the aircraft you used to fly being transferred to another entity, leaving you short of hours.
When will this madness end
I don't think we will see the same as a VA/TT like the JQ/QF pilot thing as they are so close in conditions. Minor things in each owns EBA may need to be re-shuffled but overall not a great deal compared to the QF group. Also it would appear that the pilot groups under the VA banner are more flexible to change with the current and unpredictable aviation environment which when chasing work and contracts may see them increase their yield.
As the above articles that I have read do not show a decrease in airframes it would also appear that the current pilots jobs at all VA airlines are somewhat secure at this time. What type or base you are on/ in is a different story which is how the industry is at this low point. Once things pick up again in time no doubt that will change. As has always been said before if you don't like it leave or change, but remember all those beers and wines you have thinking/ worrying/ contemplating this industry keep people in jobs of other industries so there is always some good out of a frustrating situation.
Love to fly but hate the industry, enjoy a red instead
Nig
As the above articles that I have read do not show a decrease in airframes it would also appear that the current pilots jobs at all VA airlines are somewhat secure at this time. What type or base you are on/ in is a different story which is how the industry is at this low point. Once things pick up again in time no doubt that will change. As has always been said before if you don't like it leave or change, but remember all those beers and wines you have thinking/ worrying/ contemplating this industry keep people in jobs of other industries so there is always some good out of a frustrating situation.
Love to fly but hate the industry, enjoy a red instead
Nig
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Brilliant strategy.
Keep Qantas in the dark, forcing them to keep the loss making JQ international up and running to cover the threat of tiger jumping in the market. Borghetti would be crazy to actually do it, but why not announce "we could do anything" just to make JQ jump at shadows...
Keep Qantas in the dark, forcing them to keep the loss making JQ international up and running to cover the threat of tiger jumping in the market. Borghetti would be crazy to actually do it, but why not announce "we could do anything" just to make JQ jump at shadows...