Air Niugini's subsidiary - LINK PNG
The oldest game in town, join and get the rating log a few hundred hours on type then leave for something better. I doubt any of those applying are planning on a long term career at ANG.
There is a lot more to ANG’s long term survivability than Pilots being hired, leaving and all the rest of the propaganda flirted on this website.
Just remember that pilots are consumables globally - FACT! Hate to state this fact, however it’s reality at the moment, regardless of some kind of alleged global shortage.
Experience and quality is totally another issue........
Just remember that pilots are consumables globally - FACT! Hate to state this fact, however it’s reality at the moment, regardless of some kind of alleged global shortage.
Experience and quality is totally another issue........
Last edited by Duck Pilot; 4th May 2019 at 12:16.
Duck Pilot speak tru. I look at the number of pilots being churned out here in Fiji and those who go abroad to train and come back and I wonder where they all end up.
There was an unfortunate death of a trainee Fiji pilot in NZ last week who had a start date with FJ Link in about a month.
A lot of Fiji Nationals are ending up in PNG with what were previously unheard of mins. Like he said experience and quality are different...
There is a regional market for cheap, low houred, inexperienced pilots to fill seats....
There was an unfortunate death of a trainee Fiji pilot in NZ last week who had a start date with FJ Link in about a month.
A lot of Fiji Nationals are ending up in PNG with what were previously unheard of mins. Like he said experience and quality are different...
There is a regional market for cheap, low houred, inexperienced pilots to fill seats....
Note that I wasn’t specifically referring to pilots from a certain region or background in my last post.
Sadly inexperienced and not well trained pilots may be getting into airlines such as ANG, these pilots could come from anywhere. Shutting down the pilot cadet scheme in which ANG had total control of the standard of pilots they where getting, when the pilots come back to the airline, provided an excellent foundation for ANG to get long term deducted pilots into their cockpits.
I just hope the safety and flight standards can be maintained in these challenging times.
Sadly inexperienced and not well trained pilots may be getting into airlines such as ANG, these pilots could come from anywhere. Shutting down the pilot cadet scheme in which ANG had total control of the standard of pilots they where getting, when the pilots come back to the airline, provided an excellent foundation for ANG to get long term deducted pilots into their cockpits.
I just hope the safety and flight standards can be maintained in these challenging times.
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Chop,
Every airline in the world, even the “two bit ones” receive heaps of applications from aspiring jet pilots… ANG wouldn't be any different. But it’s about QUALITY not quantity.
You may be getting a lot of applications from expats current on twin otters and Y12’s, Islanders, singles, instructing etc for FO slots (so tell me, what did happen to the drive to only have 5% expat pilots by 2020?), I wonder what your application rate and take up rate is for Quality Direct Entry Captains.
Presently ANG offers a direct entry Captains PGK 450, 308 pa on Level A (never to progress to a higher level), and when you churn the numbers with the higher PNG Tax, .40 c exchange rate, no superannuation paid, that is equivalent to an Aussie salary of about $137, 000.
And combing that salary with just 4 weeks leave a year, 10 days off a month (minimum of 4 needed to be used for travel to and from Domicile for any time at home), working in a third world country, overtime that doesn’t kick in until 70 hours (and by then you will have probably done 80 jet sectors and so fatigued you don’t really care about O/T), continual disrupted and absolute crap rosters plus plus.
Easy to see that salary is not commensurate with what is expected, especially when you look around and see that you need to do a lot less for $137,000 than a narrow body ANG captain earns who is away from home for most of the year. (Yes, Tours does sweeten the pot a little, but you have to be given Tours, (Tours are not a given, it is not even in the Contract, just given at the managers discretion ) and if certain elements of management have their way it wont remain on 100% of the narrow body salary - just need to look at Link PNG for that as the ANG Subsidiary pay around 80% full salary for those on Tour.
But if ANG Management is serious about rebuilding the Airline, making it competitive and reliable airline, an important part of the process will be treating pilots with respect and also realizing the value of experience, a bit like what ANG did prior to 2015 did.
So, Chop ‘ol mate, again I say it is about the quality, not the quantity of applications, and not only in the pilot ranks, but middle and upper management as well. The PX73 B 737 crash at CHUUK goes a long way to give support for that proposition.
Every airline in the world, even the “two bit ones” receive heaps of applications from aspiring jet pilots… ANG wouldn't be any different. But it’s about QUALITY not quantity.
You may be getting a lot of applications from expats current on twin otters and Y12’s, Islanders, singles, instructing etc for FO slots (so tell me, what did happen to the drive to only have 5% expat pilots by 2020?), I wonder what your application rate and take up rate is for Quality Direct Entry Captains.
Presently ANG offers a direct entry Captains PGK 450, 308 pa on Level A (never to progress to a higher level), and when you churn the numbers with the higher PNG Tax, .40 c exchange rate, no superannuation paid, that is equivalent to an Aussie salary of about $137, 000.
And combing that salary with just 4 weeks leave a year, 10 days off a month (minimum of 4 needed to be used for travel to and from Domicile for any time at home), working in a third world country, overtime that doesn’t kick in until 70 hours (and by then you will have probably done 80 jet sectors and so fatigued you don’t really care about O/T), continual disrupted and absolute crap rosters plus plus.
Easy to see that salary is not commensurate with what is expected, especially when you look around and see that you need to do a lot less for $137,000 than a narrow body ANG captain earns who is away from home for most of the year. (Yes, Tours does sweeten the pot a little, but you have to be given Tours, (Tours are not a given, it is not even in the Contract, just given at the managers discretion ) and if certain elements of management have their way it wont remain on 100% of the narrow body salary - just need to look at Link PNG for that as the ANG Subsidiary pay around 80% full salary for those on Tour.
But if ANG Management is serious about rebuilding the Airline, making it competitive and reliable airline, an important part of the process will be treating pilots with respect and also realizing the value of experience, a bit like what ANG did prior to 2015 did.
So, Chop ‘ol mate, again I say it is about the quality, not the quantity of applications, and not only in the pilot ranks, but middle and upper management as well. The PX73 B 737 crash at CHUUK goes a long way to give support for that proposition.
Last edited by NCD; 5th May 2019 at 11:50.
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Anyone hear anything about the Air Niugini 737 that nearly ran out of fuel returning from Singapore last week. I heard it continued to POM despite being told the airport was closed due fog - 6 attempted landings followed by a final illegal auto land. Other aircraft diverted to cairns. Anyone care to verify this.
PX393 on morning of 5th May looks to have done a bit of base training on arrival in POM.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/f...px393#20640407
PX55 same morning diverted to CNS
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/f.../px55#2063fbb0
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/f...px393#20640407
PX55 same morning diverted to CNS
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/f.../px55#2063fbb0
Last edited by Kiwiconehead; 15th May 2019 at 22:27.
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Heard it got to the gate with around 1.1 tonne fuel in tanks.
"Probably impossible to make CNS after more than 1 APR in PY with full fuel X Sing, especially if there is INTER or TEMPO fuel required in CNS...."
Should have diverted after the first approach then....and this mob passes IOSA audits. Makes a mockery of such things.
"Probably impossible to make CNS after more than 1 APR in PY with full fuel X Sing, especially if there is INTER or TEMPO fuel required in CNS...."
Should have diverted after the first approach then....and this mob passes IOSA audits. Makes a mockery of such things.
If all the B737 Singapore - POM stuff is true; has the flight crew been stood down? The Fleet manager/Chief Pilot I would assume has checked the FMS for the flight, downloaded the historical data.
Is there any QAS staff taking an interest?
Troppo in the 4th May post mentioned pilots from Fiji coming to PNG, OK if qualified but lack of experience is an issue. I thought that at least two senior CASA PNG FOI's/Examiners were both ex Fiji aviation, and if 83 year old dude is still there then he is Fiji orientated. I'm not picking on Fiji, but you get what you pay for and although B737 pay in Kina may not be up to desirable western standard, in some countries when you take the money 'home' it is a kings fortune. There is no level paying field in ANG, or CASA PNG. No apparent updates on the Chuuk accident as yet.
Is there any QAS staff taking an interest?
Troppo in the 4th May post mentioned pilots from Fiji coming to PNG, OK if qualified but lack of experience is an issue. I thought that at least two senior CASA PNG FOI's/Examiners were both ex Fiji aviation, and if 83 year old dude is still there then he is Fiji orientated. I'm not picking on Fiji, but you get what you pay for and although B737 pay in Kina may not be up to desirable western standard, in some countries when you take the money 'home' it is a kings fortune. There is no level paying field in ANG, or CASA PNG. No apparent updates on the Chuuk accident as yet.
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PX 393 B737 facts all confirmed
In addition LVO autoland on a non LVO runway by non qualified LVO crew in an airline not approved for LVO is not only tacitly approved by the fleet office at PX but actively encouraged. Thus makes up for the lack of in flight operational support, the lack of a viable alternate and a minimum fuel operation.
IOSA is just a box ticking exercise. CASA PNG are in PX's pocket and the various aviation authorities in the region are fearful of imposing any type of sanction in case they anger the PNG government and lose access to resources or allow the Chinese more influence in PNG.
Another accident in the making.
In addition LVO autoland on a non LVO runway by non qualified LVO crew in an airline not approved for LVO is not only tacitly approved by the fleet office at PX but actively encouraged. Thus makes up for the lack of in flight operational support, the lack of a viable alternate and a minimum fuel operation.
IOSA is just a box ticking exercise. CASA PNG are in PX's pocket and the various aviation authorities in the region are fearful of imposing any type of sanction in case they anger the PNG government and lose access to resources or allow the Chinese more influence in PNG.
Another accident in the making.
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If all the B737 Singapore - POM stuff is true; has the flight crew been stood down? The Fleet manager/Chief Pilot I would assume has checked the FMS for the flight, downloaded the historical data.
Is there any QAS staff taking an interest?
Troppo in the 4th May post mentioned pilots from Fiji coming to PNG, OK if qualified but lack of experience is an issue. I thought that at least two senior CASA PNG FOI's/Examiners were both ex Fiji aviation, and if 83 year old dude is still there then he is Fiji orientated. I'm not picking on Fiji, but you get what you pay for and although B737 pay in Kina may not be up to desirable western standard, in some countries when you take the money 'home' it is a kings fortune. There is no level paying field in ANG, or CASA PNG. No apparent updates on the Chuuk accident as yet.
Is there any QAS staff taking an interest?
Troppo in the 4th May post mentioned pilots from Fiji coming to PNG, OK if qualified but lack of experience is an issue. I thought that at least two senior CASA PNG FOI's/Examiners were both ex Fiji aviation, and if 83 year old dude is still there then he is Fiji orientated. I'm not picking on Fiji, but you get what you pay for and although B737 pay in Kina may not be up to desirable western standard, in some countries when you take the money 'home' it is a kings fortune. There is no level paying field in ANG, or CASA PNG. No apparent updates on the Chuuk accident as yet.
You might be surprised at the experience and qualifications of some of the Fijians when it comes to managing an ETOPS flight. They do a lot of it and in modern aircraft.
Something about the attitude of your post and also the incidents of discussion tells me that perhaps you and your airline may just benefit from the skills that many of the Fijians are likely to bring.
Last edited by WINJA; 16th May 2019 at 23:56.
Get what you pay for. How condescending is that? All operations in Fiji above the DHC are operated ETOPS, even the ATR.
You might be surprised at the experience and qualifications of some of the Fijians when it comes to managing an ETOPS flight. They do a lot of it and in modern aircraft.
Something about the attitude of your post and also the incidents of discussion tells me that perhaps you and your airline may just benefit from the skills that many of the Fijians are likely to bring.
You might be surprised at the experience and qualifications of some of the Fijians when it comes to managing an ETOPS flight. They do a lot of it and in modern aircraft.
Something about the attitude of your post and also the incidents of discussion tells me that perhaps you and your airline may just benefit from the skills that many of the Fijians are likely to bring.
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If you’re trying to convince us that NAN-LAX (ER in an A330) is a difficult mission, I disagree. Try Hagen in a 30 yr old antique (Fokker) any afternoon and you’ll see what most are referring to here, funnily enough none of the ETOPS experts you speak of got close (and yes some tried, but were not enough)....
But then again they also don't have all that valuable Hagen experience.
Maybe that's the difference?
Last edited by WINJA; 18th May 2019 at 11:04.
With so many Latent failures in Organisation / Management / Culture, it only took a single active failure on the line to result in a 737 loss. thanks Rei
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Winja,
best not get into a "pissing contest" as to who is better or not, ....leave that to arguing about the Rugby......
BUT, to bring balance to the PNG/FIJI argument, I'll bring up TRIPELAPIDGEON (POST 1401) post....
"In addition LVO autoland on a non LVO runway by non qualified LVO crew in an airline not approved for LVO is not only tacitly approved by the fleet office at PX but actively encouraged."
The Fleet office mentioned consists of two, a Technical Manager who is also the Senior Check Captain (a Fijian) and the Fleet Manager (non Flying position an expat who spent many many years years flying 737's in Fiji). They were the management group presiding for the accident and the incident being discussed...the fatal one at Chuck and the most recent "unapproved Auto land incident".
ANG was overseen by a series of CASA guys who were Fijian, some who have returned to Fiji. (BTW Fiji Airways has just hired two extremely capable PX 737 Captains, who cut there teeth on places like Hagan).
Winja, every nationality has their Aces, Great, Good, Average etc, and I never took it that "Office Update" was implying Fijians were any different to any one else...just that ANG was trying to put some some pretty green pilots onto it jet fleet.
best not get into a "pissing contest" as to who is better or not, ....leave that to arguing about the Rugby......
BUT, to bring balance to the PNG/FIJI argument, I'll bring up TRIPELAPIDGEON (POST 1401) post....
"In addition LVO autoland on a non LVO runway by non qualified LVO crew in an airline not approved for LVO is not only tacitly approved by the fleet office at PX but actively encouraged."
The Fleet office mentioned consists of two, a Technical Manager who is also the Senior Check Captain (a Fijian) and the Fleet Manager (non Flying position an expat who spent many many years years flying 737's in Fiji). They were the management group presiding for the accident and the incident being discussed...the fatal one at Chuck and the most recent "unapproved Auto land incident".
ANG was overseen by a series of CASA guys who were Fijian, some who have returned to Fiji. (BTW Fiji Airways has just hired two extremely capable PX 737 Captains, who cut there teeth on places like Hagan).
Winja, every nationality has their Aces, Great, Good, Average etc, and I never took it that "Office Update" was implying Fijians were any different to any one else...just that ANG was trying to put some some pretty green pilots onto it jet fleet.
Last edited by balusnomore; 18th May 2019 at 14:51.
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Winja,
best not get into a "pissing contest" as to who is better or not, leave that to to arguing about the Rugby......
BUT, to bring balance to the PNG/FIJI argument, I'll bring up TRIPELAPIDGEON (POST 1401) post....
"In addition LVO autoland on a non LVO runway by non qualified LVO crew in an airline not approved for LVO is not only tacitly approved by the fleet office at PX but actively encouraged."
The Fleet office consists of two, a Technical Manager who is also the Senior Check Captain (a Fijian) and the Fleet Manager (non Flying position an expat who spent many many years years flying 737's in Fiji). They were the management group presiding for both incidents being discussed...the fatal one at Chuck and the most recent "unapproved Auto land incident.
ANG was overseen by a series of CASA guys who were Fijian, some who have returned to Fiji. BTW Fiji Airways has just hired two extremely capable PX 737 Captains, who cut there teeth on places like Hagan
Wing, every nationality has their Aces, Great, Good, Average etc, and I never took it that Office Update was implying Fijians were any different to any one else...just that ANG was getting some pretty green pilots onto it jet fleet.
best not get into a "pissing contest" as to who is better or not, leave that to to arguing about the Rugby......
BUT, to bring balance to the PNG/FIJI argument, I'll bring up TRIPELAPIDGEON (POST 1401) post....
"In addition LVO autoland on a non LVO runway by non qualified LVO crew in an airline not approved for LVO is not only tacitly approved by the fleet office at PX but actively encouraged."
The Fleet office consists of two, a Technical Manager who is also the Senior Check Captain (a Fijian) and the Fleet Manager (non Flying position an expat who spent many many years years flying 737's in Fiji). They were the management group presiding for both incidents being discussed...the fatal one at Chuck and the most recent "unapproved Auto land incident.
ANG was overseen by a series of CASA guys who were Fijian, some who have returned to Fiji. BTW Fiji Airways has just hired two extremely capable PX 737 Captains, who cut there teeth on places like Hagan
Wing, every nationality has their Aces, Great, Good, Average etc, and I never took it that Office Update was implying Fijians were any different to any one else...just that ANG was getting some pretty green pilots onto it jet fleet.
It's been many years since I flew in PNG and following this thread sort of confirms that some things don't change. The bravado and probably, the risk taking more than likely remains. Only the aviation authority which was then dominated by Australians and Kiwis seems to have changed. I'm retired now after a long career that started in Australia, PNG, Africa and Europe, so could easily be accused of being an armchair pilot. And yes after Australia, PNG certainly is a shock, but realistically it isn't as challenging as those trying to justify their position or stance would like to make it out to be.
However you guys need to take a deep breath and work with your managers to rebuild your situation, put your airline back on the right path. That takes flixibility, a much easier and productive way than the battle that you seem to be in now. The court case seems to be history, time to change tact.
