300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
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Boeingdream.
There are still a number of ex FEs who are Capts and FOs that only did an intermediate certificate ie 3 years of high school.That was normal in the 60s prior to the HSC. However they have also done numerous technical courses during their years as apprentices,as LAMEs and flight ops both as FEs and Pilots. Most of this was way above the HSC level in maths and physics.
I did a uni degree towards the end of my flying career and it was no where near as difficult or intense as most of my engineering training.I fail to see what the connection is to the standard of Qantas pilots if some of the older ones only have 3 years of high school.
Wunwing
There are still a number of ex FEs who are Capts and FOs that only did an intermediate certificate ie 3 years of high school.That was normal in the 60s prior to the HSC. However they have also done numerous technical courses during their years as apprentices,as LAMEs and flight ops both as FEs and Pilots. Most of this was way above the HSC level in maths and physics.
I did a uni degree towards the end of my flying career and it was no where near as difficult or intense as most of my engineering training.I fail to see what the connection is to the standard of Qantas pilots if some of the older ones only have 3 years of high school.
Wunwing
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I don't know, can you get a degree these days without something approaching ICAO level 4 English? Seems that might be the case.
Another thing, as far as I am aware, holding an ATPL gives one a bunch of credits towards an aviation degree (about 50% I believe), regardless of how much high school that has been completed.
Another thing, as far as I am aware, holding an ATPL gives one a bunch of credits towards an aviation degree (about 50% I believe), regardless of how much high school that has been completed.
Susan Kiefel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Despite what the universities tell you don't necessarily need two degrees by the the time you are 22 to be successful.
I might add though she is obviously fairly switched on to get a slot at Cambridge later in life. She herself says that leaving school at year 10 was not her best decision. However she did what she did and should be held up as an example of alternative ways to a goal.
Life is about where you end not where you start.
Despite what the universities tell you don't necessarily need two degrees by the the time you are 22 to be successful.
I might add though she is obviously fairly switched on to get a slot at Cambridge later in life. She herself says that leaving school at year 10 was not her best decision. However she did what she did and should be held up as an example of alternative ways to a goal.
Life is about where you end not where you start.
Please Note: QANTAS CAN NOT MAKE PILOTS REDUNDANT! They will need to prove it is a Genuine Redundancy, and they need to open the books! Something they will not do. The only thing they can offer is VR......
BD:
Nice read. I would put myself in a similar boat to you but I've spent 25+ years working for QF, the last 10+ for 'ultimate' cretins at QF.
If you screw up you have yourself to blame, because I guess, like me, your staff will immediately find employment whereas you would face receivers.
Unfortunately QF staff will lose something they cherish dearly - and unless you have a company with a 100+ year history and have worked for that dream for 30++ years I dont think you (or anyone reading this) will get it.
The 'management team' who are demonstrably incompetent have collected payments so grossly outside their competence level it should be embarrassing and it is the staff who lose out.
QF staff could work for free (and I mean that) but if you are taking off with 300-350 pax for LAX with 200,000kgs of gas you will NEVER come close to your opposition taking off with 250-300 and 80,000kgs of gas.
You simply cannot make up such a difference for incompetence. And guess who gets the bonuses???
PS:it is cretins like Joyce who have taught me (underlined and highlighted) NEVER to EVER employ any Uni grad. I've had the choice to do so and I will NEVER, EVER give them the time of day. They are out to destroy MY companies and MY livelihood. Business is simple. You give people something they want and desire for more than it costs you. Everything else is bull****.
Nice read. I would put myself in a similar boat to you but I've spent 25+ years working for QF, the last 10+ for 'ultimate' cretins at QF.
If you screw up you have yourself to blame, because I guess, like me, your staff will immediately find employment whereas you would face receivers.
Unfortunately QF staff will lose something they cherish dearly - and unless you have a company with a 100+ year history and have worked for that dream for 30++ years I dont think you (or anyone reading this) will get it.
The 'management team' who are demonstrably incompetent have collected payments so grossly outside their competence level it should be embarrassing and it is the staff who lose out.
QF staff could work for free (and I mean that) but if you are taking off with 300-350 pax for LAX with 200,000kgs of gas you will NEVER come close to your opposition taking off with 250-300 and 80,000kgs of gas.
You simply cannot make up such a difference for incompetence. And guess who gets the bonuses???
PS:it is cretins like Joyce who have taught me (underlined and highlighted) NEVER to EVER employ any Uni grad. I've had the choice to do so and I will NEVER, EVER give them the time of day. They are out to destroy MY companies and MY livelihood. Business is simple. You give people something they want and desire for more than it costs you. Everything else is bull****.
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The pay thing (comparing BA and so forth) I can't verify. Maybe he can prove it. I'd hazard a guess that he is using only the A380 pay, but don't BA pilots all get PAID the same thing ei. their A320 drivers make the same rate as an A380 driver? Something about "pay points" springs to mind.
Note that a 747 captain earns the same as an A380 captain!
SH pilots are flying about 770 hours per year, longhaul about 870 hours - to draw a comparison between wage rates, you would need to take this into consideration!
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Never employ a Uni Grad
V-Jet
The lesson that I have learned from life is to never say never.
When I employ people; I look at the entire package. Whether they have been to Uni or not is just one of the elements of the assessment.
Your block-headed and dichotomous posting is slightly out-of-character. It's actually quite bigoted.
The lesson that I have learned from life is to never say never.
When I employ people; I look at the entire package. Whether they have been to Uni or not is just one of the elements of the assessment.
Your block-headed and dichotomous posting is slightly out-of-character. It's actually quite bigoted.
Possibly bigoted, but without considerable balancing factors something I (maybe unintentionally) factor against people.
I'm not perfect, but I have a distrust of those who exit a school at 24 and think they can explain business to me.
I take your point. I think anyone who has managed people properly gets most from criticism. Without critics you have group think.
PS: forgive me a tadge. I'm ok and I'm damn lucky. I've spent a chunk of the last two days talking to friends who've lost their dream jobs. It's grossly unfair and I've had a couple
I'm not perfect, but I have a distrust of those who exit a school at 24 and think they can explain business to me.
I take your point. I think anyone who has managed people properly gets most from criticism. Without critics you have group think.
PS: forgive me a tadge. I'm ok and I'm damn lucky. I've spent a chunk of the last two days talking to friends who've lost their dream jobs. It's grossly unfair and I've had a couple
To the dudes.
Boeingdream:
My main problem with you and others [now ignored] who come onto this Professional Pilots forum giving us the benefit of your odd opinions is not your spelling. It's your ignorance of what actually goes on in aviation and particularly within Qantas. Essentially, you are dudes, in the pre 1950s American sense of the word. Look it up.
Some of you must live in a parallel universe, not even close to 'real world' airline politics.
Mate, I've been flying for more than 40 years. Sixteen graduated from my pilot's course. Some had tertiary degrees before we began. Some went to Uni to gain degrees along the way. [I did this. Twice. I don't think it made me a better pilot]. Some still don't have degrees but we had all matriculated before we began.
I reckon collectively the 16 of us have flown over 350,000 hours now. At various times three of the sixteen have been Chief Pilots of major airlines. Only one of these airlines is part of the Qantas Group.
I don't wear a blue collar at work, but I respect those who might, especially LAMEs. I'll be leaving the industry very soon with VR. A long time ago, at the start of our careers, over 100 of us were given Compulsory Redundancy from Qantas. So there's a certain symmetry there. I'm not sad about the VR, even though it shouldn't be necessary. I am deeply saddened that the airline I've spent my life working for is travelling so badly lately. Others can determine why.
But enough of the ignorance. Isn't there a Smart Business Forum you could play on? Discuss Enron, perhaps?
My main problem with you and others [now ignored] who come onto this Professional Pilots forum giving us the benefit of your odd opinions is not your spelling. It's your ignorance of what actually goes on in aviation and particularly within Qantas. Essentially, you are dudes, in the pre 1950s American sense of the word. Look it up.
Some of you must live in a parallel universe, not even close to 'real world' airline politics.
Mate, I've been flying for more than 40 years. Sixteen graduated from my pilot's course. Some had tertiary degrees before we began. Some went to Uni to gain degrees along the way. [I did this. Twice. I don't think it made me a better pilot]. Some still don't have degrees but we had all matriculated before we began.
I reckon collectively the 16 of us have flown over 350,000 hours now. At various times three of the sixteen have been Chief Pilots of major airlines. Only one of these airlines is part of the Qantas Group.
I don't wear a blue collar at work, but I respect those who might, especially LAMEs. I'll be leaving the industry very soon with VR. A long time ago, at the start of our careers, over 100 of us were given Compulsory Redundancy from Qantas. So there's a certain symmetry there. I'm not sad about the VR, even though it shouldn't be necessary. I am deeply saddened that the airline I've spent my life working for is travelling so badly lately. Others can determine why.
But enough of the ignorance. Isn't there a Smart Business Forum you could play on? Discuss Enron, perhaps?
Last edited by Captain Gidday; 14th Jun 2014 at 23:06.
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Capt Gidday.
The above IMHO, easily makes post of the thread, if not the year. I, despite 32 years, 13 odd thousand hrs, and a hell of a ride in aviation,cannot come on here and pretend to know what is going on in QF. We are bystanders, ignorant to the machinations of the business. I feel for all the QF people, I worked for AN for a bit so know what's happening. Most all these QF people shed blood to get where they are now, just like all of us. No one got anything for nought! Respect that, people. Could be your job next!
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Let's roll on back a few years to the point where Dixon announced Jetstar & AJ was the CEO of JQ.
Dixon declared that JQ would never canabalise Qantas routes or network and there would be GROWTH & OPPORTUNITIES for pilots in BOTH entities.
Either this statement was made honestly believing this would be the case, alternatively made on the assumption that Mainline pilots would sit quiet on the sidelines whilst the LCC slowly replaced QF on mainline routes.
Roll forward to the present and Mainline is currently offering VR's, demoting pilots on 4 mainline aircraft types and quite possibly, once the deck chairs are rearranged commencing CR's.
This goes to the heart of the issue of Mainline's pilots trust of the current Executive management.
The following of either two options must be true;
1. The Qantas Board & Executives have failed so poorly to compete with Qantas competitors on network & product. That the "planned" mainline growth has failed to materialise. They stated there would be growth, recall the 2008 statement EVERY QF mainline FO would be a Captain within 5 years.
Or
2. The Growth of Jetstar & the shrinking of Qantas Mainline was ALWAYS the plan.
To support the position that option 2 was always the plan, consider the following;
1. Mainline operational staff recruitment freeze since 2010.
2. Deferring of A380 options
3. Retirement of B767 & B744 fleets
4. Closure of Australian Airlines replaced by JQ services.
5. Annual leave burn of Mainline pilots
6. Approving LOA for QF pilots
I have to agree, that the Annual Leave burn & leave of absence is a result of the Mainline pilot surplus. But the surplus is a result of the failure to grow mainline with fuel efficient aircraft to adequately compete with foreign carriers.
The mantra, right aircraft right route is an absolute joke. This is evident by the idle JQ B787's and A330's sitting at Tullamarine & Kingsford Smith on any given day of the week.
MC.
Dixon declared that JQ would never canabalise Qantas routes or network and there would be GROWTH & OPPORTUNITIES for pilots in BOTH entities.
Either this statement was made honestly believing this would be the case, alternatively made on the assumption that Mainline pilots would sit quiet on the sidelines whilst the LCC slowly replaced QF on mainline routes.
Roll forward to the present and Mainline is currently offering VR's, demoting pilots on 4 mainline aircraft types and quite possibly, once the deck chairs are rearranged commencing CR's.
This goes to the heart of the issue of Mainline's pilots trust of the current Executive management.
The following of either two options must be true;
1. The Qantas Board & Executives have failed so poorly to compete with Qantas competitors on network & product. That the "planned" mainline growth has failed to materialise. They stated there would be growth, recall the 2008 statement EVERY QF mainline FO would be a Captain within 5 years.
Or
2. The Growth of Jetstar & the shrinking of Qantas Mainline was ALWAYS the plan.
To support the position that option 2 was always the plan, consider the following;
1. Mainline operational staff recruitment freeze since 2010.
2. Deferring of A380 options
3. Retirement of B767 & B744 fleets
4. Closure of Australian Airlines replaced by JQ services.
5. Annual leave burn of Mainline pilots
6. Approving LOA for QF pilots
I have to agree, that the Annual Leave burn & leave of absence is a result of the Mainline pilot surplus. But the surplus is a result of the failure to grow mainline with fuel efficient aircraft to adequately compete with foreign carriers.
The mantra, right aircraft right route is an absolute joke. This is evident by the idle JQ B787's and A330's sitting at Tullamarine & Kingsford Smith on any given day of the week.
MC.
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I suspect it goes well beyond Cautions items 1 and 2 although I tend to go for item 1 as the appropriate clause.
Qantas for most of time as an exclusive international operator, had a 1 or 2 type fleet, ie B707 and B747,then B747 only, then B747 and B767.Once Qantas took over Australian or v.v. depending on your choice, there was a conscious fleet rationalisation. Under James Strong the fleet evolved to 4 to 5 types consisting of Dash 8s 200/300, B737, B 767 and B747 Classic and 400s.
Fleet utilisation, at least on Long Haul, was at optimum. The Classic on the NRT run which coupled with the AKL run averaged 20 hours per day excluding heavy Maintenance. Its a bit hard to do better than that in a curfew airport environment. Others which due to curfews had down time in Europe, had progressive maintenance carried out on layovers to increase utilisation.
Today across the group including contractors there are,BAe 146, F50s,F100s,A320,
A330,A380,Dash 8 200/300 and Dash 8 400s,B717,B737,B767,B787 and B747. All up 13 types.There is no way that any operator could acheive optimum utilisation or engineering with that lot.
That fleet mix is the result of total failure at board level.
Wunwing
Qantas for most of time as an exclusive international operator, had a 1 or 2 type fleet, ie B707 and B747,then B747 only, then B747 and B767.Once Qantas took over Australian or v.v. depending on your choice, there was a conscious fleet rationalisation. Under James Strong the fleet evolved to 4 to 5 types consisting of Dash 8s 200/300, B737, B 767 and B747 Classic and 400s.
Fleet utilisation, at least on Long Haul, was at optimum. The Classic on the NRT run which coupled with the AKL run averaged 20 hours per day excluding heavy Maintenance. Its a bit hard to do better than that in a curfew airport environment. Others which due to curfews had down time in Europe, had progressive maintenance carried out on layovers to increase utilisation.
Today across the group including contractors there are,BAe 146, F50s,F100s,A320,
A330,A380,Dash 8 200/300 and Dash 8 400s,B717,B737,B767,B787 and B747. All up 13 types.There is no way that any operator could acheive optimum utilisation or engineering with that lot.
That fleet mix is the result of total failure at board level.
Wunwing
Last edited by Wunwing; 15th Jun 2014 at 00:27.
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Today across the group including contractors there are,BAe 146, F50s,F100s,A320,
A330,A380,Dash 8 200/300 and Dash 8 400s,B717,B737,B767,B787 and B747. All up 13 types.
A330,A380,Dash 8 200/300 and Dash 8 400s,B717,B737,B767,B787 and B747. All up 13 types.
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Hey V-Jet, if you've had 25+ years at QF, why don't you just suck it up, accept that the world has changed, be thankful you had a great career during the halcyon days of a protected era when profit didn't really matter, and get on with life? Or you could give yourself an ulcer and spread your misery anonymously over the internet. Another option would be to speak to some real people (those non-uni graduate employees of yours perhaps?) and see what they have to deal with just to get through life.
Whatever you choose, I hope you stay here. I love reading your stuff. It immerses me in perspective and reminds me what a glass half full guy I really am. And I'll never have the career you've had.
Whatever you choose, I hope you stay here. I love reading your stuff. It immerses me in perspective and reminds me what a glass half full guy I really am. And I'll never have the career you've had.
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If I am gauging V Jets mood correctly & I'm sure V Jet will speak for himself.
But, the likes of V Jet & his peers have had 25 + years as airline Captains and or crew. Because they have displayed competency & proficiency in the conduct of their duties required.
If any crew member had not achieved the desire level of performance within the organisation, they would be shown the door.
However, the same rule set does not apply to those at an executive level.
Here's a short list of management failures;
1. Wrong fleet
2. Hostile attitude to IR
3. Staff Lockout & Grounding
4. Red Q
5. JQ Asian Franchises
6. JQ International
7. Contempt for passengers (see note 3)
8. Contempt for employees (denying career advancement see note 2)
9. Damaging the QF brand ("Qantas International is in terminal decline")
10. Splitting the AOC then putting the project on hold (costing hundreds of million$)
What staff would like to see is the equivalent set of expectations thru the organisation.
Instead (some) Executives are rewarded with Promotions, increased remuneration and improved Staff Travel Benefits.
I'm struggling to think of one Executive canned for poor performance, although AJ continues to state the airlines woes.
MC
But, the likes of V Jet & his peers have had 25 + years as airline Captains and or crew. Because they have displayed competency & proficiency in the conduct of their duties required.
If any crew member had not achieved the desire level of performance within the organisation, they would be shown the door.
However, the same rule set does not apply to those at an executive level.
Here's a short list of management failures;
1. Wrong fleet
2. Hostile attitude to IR
3. Staff Lockout & Grounding
4. Red Q
5. JQ Asian Franchises
6. JQ International
7. Contempt for passengers (see note 3)
8. Contempt for employees (denying career advancement see note 2)
9. Damaging the QF brand ("Qantas International is in terminal decline")
10. Splitting the AOC then putting the project on hold (costing hundreds of million$)
What staff would like to see is the equivalent set of expectations thru the organisation.
Instead (some) Executives are rewarded with Promotions, increased remuneration and improved Staff Travel Benefits.
I'm struggling to think of one Executive canned for poor performance, although AJ continues to state the airlines woes.
MC
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BD,
Without intending to cause offense, your opinion in some regards is a little myopic.
Qantas (despite the pooh poohing of some on here who have obviously suffered rejection by same at some stage in their lives) IS an Australian institution. Ask any random citizen in the street to name an airline and they would, on probability, answer 'Qantas'. Ask anyone in a foreign port to name an Australian airline and you would probably get the same response. To the Australian psyche, and to the rest of the first world at least, Qantas is as iconically Aussie as Vegemite and Victa lawnmowers...rightly or wrongly.
So what? I hear you ask.
Pride. It might be a deadly sin, but the people who WORK at Qantas take pride in the history and record that their forebears (in both management and in the left and right hand seats) built over THE century of aviation endeavour.
Too much hard work has been put in over the decades, by too many fine people, to have it all ruined in a decade by a handful of individuals. Not only do the people who ARE Qantas (the employees) deserve it, but Australia and Australians deserve it. Qantas is OURS...it deserves to be bigger that a 'conga line' of purely selfish people.
The business is undeniably viable. It is being either deliberately run down or it is being run by incompetents.
Emotive claptrap if you say so, but anyone with any business sense will tell you that emotion, at the end of the day, drives success.
Without intending to cause offense, your opinion in some regards is a little myopic.
Qantas (despite the pooh poohing of some on here who have obviously suffered rejection by same at some stage in their lives) IS an Australian institution. Ask any random citizen in the street to name an airline and they would, on probability, answer 'Qantas'. Ask anyone in a foreign port to name an Australian airline and you would probably get the same response. To the Australian psyche, and to the rest of the first world at least, Qantas is as iconically Aussie as Vegemite and Victa lawnmowers...rightly or wrongly.
So what? I hear you ask.
Pride. It might be a deadly sin, but the people who WORK at Qantas take pride in the history and record that their forebears (in both management and in the left and right hand seats) built over THE century of aviation endeavour.
Too much hard work has been put in over the decades, by too many fine people, to have it all ruined in a decade by a handful of individuals. Not only do the people who ARE Qantas (the employees) deserve it, but Australia and Australians deserve it. Qantas is OURS...it deserves to be bigger that a 'conga line' of purely selfish people.
The business is undeniably viable. It is being either deliberately run down or it is being run by incompetents.
Emotive claptrap if you say so, but anyone with any business sense will tell you that emotion, at the end of the day, drives success.
