300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
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the way these morons operate, every QF, jq, QLink, network and cobham pilot is starring down the barrel of redundancy. don't for one second think that if mainline goes, the rest will survive.
Guess which one
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You will find that QF approached Infrastructure with the idea to sell Domestic a la Virgin and were told that the QSA stood in it's way. Another $128 million down the tube, brilliant!
australopithecus
This is why I dont visit pprune very much anymore and why I regret throwing my 2 cents into the argument.
The numbers are actually correct, give or take. They may be a little low or a little high, but you will never know because you will never know how much a Chinese pilot costs the company. They are based on first hand experience of many many hours spent chewing the fat with said crew members and enjoying a fair amount of second hand smoke.
Yes, SOME Chinese carriers are paying expats huge bucks, although not as much as your quoted number. But the number of expats still remain in the several percent of staff numbers and thus a fraction of their staff cost.
Overall, their cockpit crew costs are CONSIDERABLY less than most western airlines. Thats the point I was making.
This is why I dont visit pprune very much anymore and why I regret throwing my 2 cents into the argument.
The numbers are actually correct, give or take. They may be a little low or a little high, but you will never know because you will never know how much a Chinese pilot costs the company. They are based on first hand experience of many many hours spent chewing the fat with said crew members and enjoying a fair amount of second hand smoke.
Yes, SOME Chinese carriers are paying expats huge bucks, although not as much as your quoted number. But the number of expats still remain in the several percent of staff numbers and thus a fraction of their staff cost.
Overall, their cockpit crew costs are CONSIDERABLY less than most western airlines. Thats the point I was making.
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How long do you think a Chinese pilot will put up with being paid far less than a western pilot? These are very smart people who know what's going on. If anything they will be you saviour conditions wise. While your conditions deteriorate, theirs' are getting better. The main thing that contributes to the cost of employment in Australia are: Super, OH&S insurances, workcover, political correctness training, company indoctrination training.
It is government imposing most of this cost, they are blaming YOU for it.
It is government imposing most of this cost, they are blaming YOU for it.
Oicur12...
Thanks for dropping by.
So my number is correct for the expat in some cases. (And judging by the recent banner ads here on PPrune, currently on offer). Your point stands that we cannot parse out the exact values of everyone's contract, conditions, etc. but I will bet that the Chinese pilot makes a handy multiple of what a similar non-flying job pays.
My point about comparative pay scales should be obvious: I cannot live on twice what a Chinese pilot allegedly earns. I live and spend in one of the world's most expensive countries.
If somewhere some airline gets pilots to work for free will that become the new benchmark? How about pay to work? That seems to be the new normal for regional pilots in the USA. What a pathetic joke this profession has become. Soon we shall have to remove the " professional" from this site. Maybe it should be called the "Will-fly-for-food pilots rumour network"
Thanks for dropping by.
So my number is correct for the expat in some cases. (And judging by the recent banner ads here on PPrune, currently on offer). Your point stands that we cannot parse out the exact values of everyone's contract, conditions, etc. but I will bet that the Chinese pilot makes a handy multiple of what a similar non-flying job pays.
My point about comparative pay scales should be obvious: I cannot live on twice what a Chinese pilot allegedly earns. I live and spend in one of the world's most expensive countries.
If somewhere some airline gets pilots to work for free will that become the new benchmark? How about pay to work? That seems to be the new normal for regional pilots in the USA. What a pathetic joke this profession has become. Soon we shall have to remove the " professional" from this site. Maybe it should be called the "Will-fly-for-food pilots rumour network"
Quote:
the way these morons operate, every QF, jq, QLink, network and cobham pilot is starring down the barrel of redundancy. don't for one second think that if mainline goes, the rest will survive.
Captahab says
Captahab, you know diddlysquat.
[That said, you still know more than Flyboat North and Ballsdeep combined].
Example A:
Cobham have a very clever strategy, worldwide. They always operate on contracts that provide for their operating costs, plus a profit margin. So, they don't give a damn about load factors, or lack thereof. It is up to the Smartest Guys In The Room at the Mothership to make a profit. If they sell enough seats, say, on Sydney-Hobart or Canberra-Brisbane, well OK, they get to keep the change. If not, do you think Cobham makes a loss? Nope, it's carried by the Mothership.
So, if/when the Mothership goes down [increasingly likely due to the incompetence of Captain Kirk, Spock and the others] do you think Cobham will continue operating to Hobart or Canberra. Not pygmalion likely. No contract. They just fold up their tents and p!ss off to greener pastures. Cobham pilots are goners.
Speaking of the 717, can anyone quote an example of a 717 still in revenue service, say, in the USA? I fly to/through the USA a lot and I don't ever, [repeat] EVER, recall seeing a 717 operating in US airspace since the GFC. Where do you see them? Mojave in storage is the only place I've ever seen them, since 2008. Why? Because, compared to a 737-800 they have dog economics. Let's shout it out! A Cobham 717 Captain based in Canberra makes about $165K, almost as much as a 737 Captain flying ahout 50% more passengers for QF Domestic. Do Cobham care? See above.
Example B : Could all the various entities making up Link survive the crash of the Mothership? Sadly, the answer is also NO. Instantly, all the feeders would lose their on-carriage traffic from the Mothership. You know, there are people travelling from Santa Fe, New Mexico to Wagga Wagga or from Perth to Rocky. Without the Mothership's expensive booking engines, terminal contracts, fuel contracts, contracts with aircraft manufacturers at favourable rates, and all the other infrastructure there is no way that any Dash 8 with a tiny kangaroo on the tail, operated by Sunstate, for example, is going to be a viable operation. They are all just shot ducks without the Mothership.
Link pilots are goners.
Example C:
Can Jetstar, in all it's guises survive without the Mothership? I think not also. Similar story.
Jetstar pilots are goners.
Are pilots for all the "Entities", including QF Mainline, going to survive the crash, if/when it happens? Well, yes, actually. Australia for the forseeable future has a need to move people around by air. It takes too long to drive and the railways are ****e. So yes, move on, regroup. Another airline will arise to continue the duopoly. Some pilots will benefit, some will not get a favourable roll of the dice. But most will come through the turbulence with but a few scars.
Will Kirk and Spock and the others survive a fiery crash? One sincerely hopes not. Surely the talent pool is big enough that the 'misfits' from a previous crash [Ken Cowley's words recently in the Fin Review, not mine] will have their resumes stamped "NEVER, EVER EMPLOY AGAIN IN AVIATION MANAGEMENT, GO AND WORK IN A BAUXITE MINE. SHARE PURCHASE AND KPI BONUS PLAN CANCELLED" and we can all move on into a brighter future.
the way these morons operate, every QF, jq, QLink, network and cobham pilot is starring down the barrel of redundancy. don't for one second think that if mainline goes, the rest will survive.
Captahab says
Nonsense
[That said, you still know more than Flyboat North and Ballsdeep combined].
Example A:
Cobham have a very clever strategy, worldwide. They always operate on contracts that provide for their operating costs, plus a profit margin. So, they don't give a damn about load factors, or lack thereof. It is up to the Smartest Guys In The Room at the Mothership to make a profit. If they sell enough seats, say, on Sydney-Hobart or Canberra-Brisbane, well OK, they get to keep the change. If not, do you think Cobham makes a loss? Nope, it's carried by the Mothership.
So, if/when the Mothership goes down [increasingly likely due to the incompetence of Captain Kirk, Spock and the others] do you think Cobham will continue operating to Hobart or Canberra. Not pygmalion likely. No contract. They just fold up their tents and p!ss off to greener pastures. Cobham pilots are goners.
Speaking of the 717, can anyone quote an example of a 717 still in revenue service, say, in the USA? I fly to/through the USA a lot and I don't ever, [repeat] EVER, recall seeing a 717 operating in US airspace since the GFC. Where do you see them? Mojave in storage is the only place I've ever seen them, since 2008. Why? Because, compared to a 737-800 they have dog economics. Let's shout it out! A Cobham 717 Captain based in Canberra makes about $165K, almost as much as a 737 Captain flying ahout 50% more passengers for QF Domestic. Do Cobham care? See above.
Example B : Could all the various entities making up Link survive the crash of the Mothership? Sadly, the answer is also NO. Instantly, all the feeders would lose their on-carriage traffic from the Mothership. You know, there are people travelling from Santa Fe, New Mexico to Wagga Wagga or from Perth to Rocky. Without the Mothership's expensive booking engines, terminal contracts, fuel contracts, contracts with aircraft manufacturers at favourable rates, and all the other infrastructure there is no way that any Dash 8 with a tiny kangaroo on the tail, operated by Sunstate, for example, is going to be a viable operation. They are all just shot ducks without the Mothership.
Link pilots are goners.
Example C:
Can Jetstar, in all it's guises survive without the Mothership? I think not also. Similar story.
Jetstar pilots are goners.
Are pilots for all the "Entities", including QF Mainline, going to survive the crash, if/when it happens? Well, yes, actually. Australia for the forseeable future has a need to move people around by air. It takes too long to drive and the railways are ****e. So yes, move on, regroup. Another airline will arise to continue the duopoly. Some pilots will benefit, some will not get a favourable roll of the dice. But most will come through the turbulence with but a few scars.
Will Kirk and Spock and the others survive a fiery crash? One sincerely hopes not. Surely the talent pool is big enough that the 'misfits' from a previous crash [Ken Cowley's words recently in the Fin Review, not mine] will have their resumes stamped "NEVER, EVER EMPLOY AGAIN IN AVIATION MANAGEMENT, GO AND WORK IN A BAUXITE MINE. SHARE PURCHASE AND KPI BONUS PLAN CANCELLED" and we can all move on into a brighter future.
Last edited by Captain Gidday; 9th Jun 2014 at 05:46.
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captain giddy
Most 717's are still flying, including in the US. I used to commute reasonable frequently on them with DL and they are getting more of them. In fact DL is snapping up the majority of 717's from previous operators as fast as possible.
The reason you don't see many of them is that they didn't make many of them.
Boeing saw to that!
Most 717's are still flying, including in the US. I used to commute reasonable frequently on them with DL and they are getting more of them. In fact DL is snapping up the majority of 717's from previous operators as fast as possible.
The reason you don't see many of them is that they didn't make many of them.
Boeing saw to that!
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I still don't get why you guys are responding to Flyboat North?
Plenty of people (including me) have stated:
Flyboat North IS. A. TROLL!
But every time he puts up some garbage post some of you can't help yourselves and have to reply. The tragic part of this is that you're letting your emotions get the better of you and it's letting you down.
In all my postings I can't recall a time when I've "gone the man", even when some of my Prune "opponents" get stuck into me, but in this case I'll make an exception. And only because there are people who're about to undergo some serious financial/career pain through no fault of their own, and it sickens me to see others gloating about it.
As far as I can make out, Flyboat North operates out of Moorabbin airport and appears to be employed (possibly in some kind of marketing capacity) by one of the sausage factories who supply pilots for some of the cadet schemes.
This opinion is based SOLELY on his continual drivel on a couple of the cadet threads in D&G. If you could be bothered reading them, they remind me of typical marketing hype. That is: full of promises but don't actually deliver when the details of his claims are inspected closely.
As far as I can see, he has never worked for any airline and most of his information comes from friends and acquaintences that do, or from the internet (e.g. only a few weeks ago he was trying to source the QF Longhaul agreement from the internet).
But he comes on here again and again and trolls. And every single time he gets a bite.
I wont comment on the sort of personality that gets off on this, especially when the intended respondents are people who're about to face some very difficult financial/lifestyle/career decisions in the very near future.
But please, do NOT respond to him; especially if only to abuse. You're letting your emotions get the better of your professionalism, and you're letting yourselves and your colleages down.
Remember, the general public and the press read these forums. If there were to be an article do you think it will be
"Internet Troll goads Qantas pilots",
or
"Qantas pilots abuse people asking genuine questions".
DIVOSH!
Plenty of people (including me) have stated:
Flyboat North IS. A. TROLL!
But every time he puts up some garbage post some of you can't help yourselves and have to reply. The tragic part of this is that you're letting your emotions get the better of you and it's letting you down.
In all my postings I can't recall a time when I've "gone the man", even when some of my Prune "opponents" get stuck into me, but in this case I'll make an exception. And only because there are people who're about to undergo some serious financial/career pain through no fault of their own, and it sickens me to see others gloating about it.
As far as I can make out, Flyboat North operates out of Moorabbin airport and appears to be employed (possibly in some kind of marketing capacity) by one of the sausage factories who supply pilots for some of the cadet schemes.
This opinion is based SOLELY on his continual drivel on a couple of the cadet threads in D&G. If you could be bothered reading them, they remind me of typical marketing hype. That is: full of promises but don't actually deliver when the details of his claims are inspected closely.
As far as I can see, he has never worked for any airline and most of his information comes from friends and acquaintences that do, or from the internet (e.g. only a few weeks ago he was trying to source the QF Longhaul agreement from the internet).
But he comes on here again and again and trolls. And every single time he gets a bite.
I wont comment on the sort of personality that gets off on this, especially when the intended respondents are people who're about to face some very difficult financial/lifestyle/career decisions in the very near future.
But please, do NOT respond to him; especially if only to abuse. You're letting your emotions get the better of your professionalism, and you're letting yourselves and your colleages down.
Remember, the general public and the press read these forums. If there were to be an article do you think it will be
"Internet Troll goads Qantas pilots",
or
"Qantas pilots abuse people asking genuine questions".
DIVOSH!
Zapata's Blood:
Well, I don't get to Atlanta much, it must be said, but Southwest seem happy to get rid of the 717s, acquired in the Airtrans takeover, to Delta. Still dogs!
Well, I don't get to Atlanta much, it must be said, but Southwest seem happy to get rid of the 717s, acquired in the Airtrans takeover, to Delta. Still dogs!
Southwest Airlines says it will spend about $100 million to convert AirTran Airways’ Boeing 717s to Delta Air Lines’ livery and specifications before subleasing them to the legacy carrier, but Chairman, President and CEO Gary Kelly insists the expense is justified to eliminate all 88 of the 100-seat aircraft from Southwest’s fleet.
The cost is in addition to $40 million provided separately by Boeing.
“You might think of it as a volume discount we were willing to offer to induce our sublease customer to take those aircraft,” Kelly said July 19 during a conference call discussing Southwest’s second-quarter earnings. Southwest CFO Laura Wright added that Southwest expects a $200 million boost in annual pre-tax income from replacing the AirTran 717 service with 737s that accommodate 26 more seats at roughly the same trip cost.
The cost is in addition to $40 million provided separately by Boeing.
“You might think of it as a volume discount we were willing to offer to induce our sublease customer to take those aircraft,” Kelly said July 19 during a conference call discussing Southwest’s second-quarter earnings. Southwest CFO Laura Wright added that Southwest expects a $200 million boost in annual pre-tax income from replacing the AirTran 717 service with 737s that accommodate 26 more seats at roughly the same trip cost.
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Will most of the Qantas pilots that are laid off be able to find gainful employment with other Australian Airlines or will most be heading overseas?
Perhaps a good opportunity for Virgin to get some highly experienced pilots.
Best of luck to everyone.
Perhaps a good opportunity for Virgin to get some highly experienced pilots.
Best of luck to everyone.
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Unfortunately like other Australian businesses international flights are being outsourced by cashed up foreign Airlines , that even the likes of Jetstar cannot compete with.
If Qantas has its foreign ownership cap lifted then there will be no Australian owned Airline any longer , the skies will be open for cashed up carriers to exploit the domestic market.
Australian based aviation is in great danger.
If Qantas has its foreign ownership cap lifted then there will be no Australian owned Airline any longer , the skies will be open for cashed up carriers to exploit the domestic market.
Australian based aviation is in great danger.
Nunc est bibendum
Will most of the Qantas pilots that are laid off be able to find gainful employment with other Australian Airlines or will most be heading overseas?
If only half accept VR then we'll see if QF extend it to other fleets. They'd certainly get more than 100 if they offered it to all categories.
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Perhaps a good opportunity for Virgin to get some highly experienced pilots.
To the jungle jet with you!
P.S The ones that face redundancy if it goes that far have no experience except eating sandwiches and VOLMET
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Di Vosh has said: FBN is a troll, don't feed the trolls...
...so, why are you feeding the trolls DV?
...so, why are you feeding the trolls DV?
I suspect you have hit the nail on the head Divosh
P.S The ones that face redundancy if it goes that far have no experience except eating sandwiches and VOLMET
Mmmmm..... sandwich.....
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Jetstar are the most valuable business unit in the group. Like a cockroach, they will survive and prosper through any nuclear holocaust. Why? They have bare bones unit costs, and yet an AOC which includes the A320, A330 and now the 787. That's three of the most popular and capable aircraft in the world. And significant experience in international operations.
So what happens? The QF group goes into administration. It's Ansett all over again. The Administrators move in with the dual goal of salvaging as much money for the creditors, and making as much money for themselves. So they split the component parts up and offer them for sale. Nobody touches the mainline operation. Too expensive. But SQ, EH, EK and QR go into battle for JQ and the winner rebrands it into a premium carrier. Domestic feed, check. Premium international operations on the lowest cost base in the region, check. Billions of dollars are poured into service improvements and aircraft acquisitions. And nobody in JQ gets a dime extra, check. Welcome to the brave new world.
All the while the pollies play the blame game and can't agree on a bailout package, and editors drown in letters by people who say they've always called Australia home, but secretly have been flying via the middle east because they haven't wanted to pay the price to actually live there.
Think it can't happen? I'd suggest it's more likely than not. And what's going on in QF at the moment is because they know it will happen too, unless they find a way of migrating the operation towards the low cost bastard child. It's all about trying to avoid the inevitable.
So who wins first. QF change management? Or the ravenous tentacles of insolvency followed by the gluttonous jaws of a state backed mega carrier? Either way, the cockroach survives, and if I was a young QF pilot right now I'd be trying to grab myself a spot on the JQ seniority list.
So what happens? The QF group goes into administration. It's Ansett all over again. The Administrators move in with the dual goal of salvaging as much money for the creditors, and making as much money for themselves. So they split the component parts up and offer them for sale. Nobody touches the mainline operation. Too expensive. But SQ, EH, EK and QR go into battle for JQ and the winner rebrands it into a premium carrier. Domestic feed, check. Premium international operations on the lowest cost base in the region, check. Billions of dollars are poured into service improvements and aircraft acquisitions. And nobody in JQ gets a dime extra, check. Welcome to the brave new world.
All the while the pollies play the blame game and can't agree on a bailout package, and editors drown in letters by people who say they've always called Australia home, but secretly have been flying via the middle east because they haven't wanted to pay the price to actually live there.
Think it can't happen? I'd suggest it's more likely than not. And what's going on in QF at the moment is because they know it will happen too, unless they find a way of migrating the operation towards the low cost bastard child. It's all about trying to avoid the inevitable.
So who wins first. QF change management? Or the ravenous tentacles of insolvency followed by the gluttonous jaws of a state backed mega carrier? Either way, the cockroach survives, and if I was a young QF pilot right now I'd be trying to grab myself a spot on the JQ seniority list.
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I said to my mates who joined JQ prior to '08 if you join Jetstar you'll be wearing a Qantas hat within 5 years.
It's taken a little longer but we all know that's the end game.
I agree with Metroboys post. Sad but true and inevitable.
It's taken a little longer but we all know that's the end game.
I agree with Metroboys post. Sad but true and inevitable.
