300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
Amos I don't think anyone who was an Australian airline pilot in 89 should be preaching about how the class of 64 are now a band of brothers!You blokes took the level of hatred of other pilots to a whole new level where even the sons of your so-called Class of 64 were considered fair game. 
idiot
idiot
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Is it any wonder that pilots are considered an easy target!!!
Brotherhood of pilots, and solidarity and all that stuff.
What a joke. You children only aid and abet the management division of labour.
And btw, the same usual suspects have been banging on about QFs issues for 10 years. If you hate it that much, piss off and improve your lot. Here's a reality check for you.
ITS NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER. QUITE THE OPPOSITE.
I left the group 5 years ago. The best decision I ever made in my life.
Brotherhood of pilots, and solidarity and all that stuff.
What a joke. You children only aid and abet the management division of labour.
And btw, the same usual suspects have been banging on about QFs issues for 10 years. If you hate it that much, piss off and improve your lot. Here's a reality check for you.
ITS NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER. QUITE THE OPPOSITE.
I left the group 5 years ago. The best decision I ever made in my life.
Whispers from the bazaars suggest that QF's VR is to pay nothing more than lip service to the 'offer' in the full knowledge that no one will take it up, costing them nothing and progressing with all speed to CR.
Who'd a thunk it
Who'd a thunk it
Well in my view that is exactly what he is saying, post the article, likely they will all agree with you no matter what.
He says some interesting things especially that the QF pilots are "mid range" on an international comparison.
He says some interesting things especially that the QF pilots are "mid range" on an international comparison.
Here's the part where he mentions interest-free loans:
'What would the Australian government need to do to put Qantas on an even footing with the likes of Emirates, Etihad, and their scion, Virgin Australia?
Well, for a start, the government would have to buy up all the airports in Australia and allow Qantas to land free. It would have to stop Qantas paying any corporate tax. And it would have to allow the depreciation rates on aircraft to be chopped by around two-thirds.
And if the Governor-General could write Qantas a $3 billion interest-free loan - that would certainly help too.
Obviously this is nonsense.' (my bold)
So why is what you're claiming to have read so different, do you reckon, FBN? Or did you just read the bigger writing where it quoted the bit about the G-G?
I do question the motivation of one of the posters here that bangs on about QF pilot pay. His comparison of a top QF Capts pay, including overtime and allowances, against a 1st year EK Capts basic salary would suggest just a lot of manipulation of the truth.
Perhaps if he had used the top EK scale his argument would not be as strong. EK basic salary + flying pay would be close to the QF numbers. Add housing allowance (if taken) and education allowance for kids and training allowance and he is way in front. CX top scale leaves the EK one way behind. So it would seem the QF numbers are in fact middle of the road.
I can only assume he has misrepresented the other figures he has quoted as well.
The Don
Perhaps if he had used the top EK scale his argument would not be as strong. EK basic salary + flying pay would be close to the QF numbers. Add housing allowance (if taken) and education allowance for kids and training allowance and he is way in front. CX top scale leaves the EK one way behind. So it would seem the QF numbers are in fact middle of the road.
I can only assume he has misrepresented the other figures he has quoted as well.
The Don
Last edited by donpizmeov; 30th May 2014 at 13:01. Reason: removing numbers
FBN
I really dislike giving bandwidth to the uneducated, but you are simply not factual and your statements of purported facts are really off.
I don't give a toss either way but wrong is wrong. It takes years to accurately learn the nuances of airline contracts and it is obvious you don't have the experience to comment. I can't be more polite than that.
What is interesting is the play QF is making and what can be done to mitigate the destruction that will be wrought from above. And make no mistake, it will be wrought, it is morally and should be legally wrong, but it is happening.
The idiots that run the place should be nailed up, but tragically the guys who caused the problem are not going to suffer in any way at all.
I really dislike giving bandwidth to the uneducated, but you are simply not factual and your statements of purported facts are really off.
I don't give a toss either way but wrong is wrong. It takes years to accurately learn the nuances of airline contracts and it is obvious you don't have the experience to comment. I can't be more polite than that.
What is interesting is the play QF is making and what can be done to mitigate the destruction that will be wrought from above. And make no mistake, it will be wrought, it is morally and should be legally wrong, but it is happening.
The idiots that run the place should be nailed up, but tragically the guys who caused the problem are not going to suffer in any way at all.
Last edited by V-Jet; 30th May 2014 at 10:32.
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Which means the company is going to have a crack at CR out of seniority.
I have also heard that the cross training costs are so massive that the company will have to conduct training overseas if the WD was legally observed.
Along with the parlous state of the companies finances, this will form the basis of the argument at FWA.
Against this is the fact that the companies submission to arbitration didn't specifically ask for redundancy out of seniority order.
Things are about to get bloody.
I have also heard that the cross training costs are so massive that the company will have to conduct training overseas if the WD was legally observed.
Along with the parlous state of the companies finances, this will form the basis of the argument at FWA.
Against this is the fact that the companies submission to arbitration didn't specifically ask for redundancy out of seniority order.
Things are about to get bloody.
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Which means the company is going to have a crack at CR out of seniority.
Having said that I don't trust the company.
“But likely the biggest one is that you are relying on Flight Crew Agency men telling you the big kind airline is paying all your Chinese tax”
Actually, the airline is covering your Chinese tax obligations. It’s a tax paid salary and so far after about 6 years the ATO are happy with it, as are the Canadian’s and EU.
The debate here overlooks something more important than how much the pilot is PAID and that is how much the pilots COSTS the company.
For arguments sake, if an EK and QF pilot take home the same money that is almost irrelevant as the QF pilot is costing Qantas much more to employ than the EK pilot.
Qantas are paying a much higher gross salary and have more inefficiency with consequential training costs when movement occurs and carry extra crew during down times as its too expensive to retrench pilots.
EK don’t have these costs.
Actually, the airline is covering your Chinese tax obligations. It’s a tax paid salary and so far after about 6 years the ATO are happy with it, as are the Canadian’s and EU.
The debate here overlooks something more important than how much the pilot is PAID and that is how much the pilots COSTS the company.
For arguments sake, if an EK and QF pilot take home the same money that is almost irrelevant as the QF pilot is costing Qantas much more to employ than the EK pilot.
Qantas are paying a much higher gross salary and have more inefficiency with consequential training costs when movement occurs and carry extra crew during down times as its too expensive to retrench pilots.
EK don’t have these costs.
CP's job in Qf is to make the unpalatable missives from above as 'nice' as possible. The position is chosen from 'yes-men' and not (from what I can see) the type a traditional CP should be.
In short, a CP at Qf who even looked like standing their ground would lose their executive car park faster than you could say 'Dubai'. Its a rubber stamp position, the conclusion is inescapable - otherwise, where are the resignations? Anecdotal evidence suggests the position was involved up to its neck in the shutdown so I wouldnt expect any support from there.
Employees seem to be the only ones who have to comply with WD, employers with big legals seem to be able to cry foul and call 'hardship' if they dont like any outcome....
In short, a CP at Qf who even looked like standing their ground would lose their executive car park faster than you could say 'Dubai'. Its a rubber stamp position, the conclusion is inescapable - otherwise, where are the resignations? Anecdotal evidence suggests the position was involved up to its neck in the shutdown so I wouldnt expect any support from there.
Employees seem to be the only ones who have to comply with WD, employers with big legals seem to be able to cry foul and call 'hardship' if they dont like any outcome....
Oicur12.again...
Some of the costs to the company for any particular pilot are a result of the very high cost of living, and the high punitive tax rate applied to PAYE workers earnng pilot salaries.
The other costs-the training and the over-staffing, are the consequences of failed strategy. The airline has been carrying increasing numbers of surplus crew for at least five years yet failed until now to attempt to manage the situation.
As it stands right now the Qantas group has as many pilots surplus as they have hired in Jetstar since they knew of the problem (How could they not? The problem is Jetstar, and they caused it!). Because of one-eyed insistance that Qantas pilots not corrupt the Jetstar culture they were largely blocked from those jobs. So the problem, and the obvious solution, were created in-house, and the obvious ramifications ignored.
Some of the costs to the company for any particular pilot are a result of the very high cost of living, and the high punitive tax rate applied to PAYE workers earnng pilot salaries.
The other costs-the training and the over-staffing, are the consequences of failed strategy. The airline has been carrying increasing numbers of surplus crew for at least five years yet failed until now to attempt to manage the situation.
As it stands right now the Qantas group has as many pilots surplus as they have hired in Jetstar since they knew of the problem (How could they not? The problem is Jetstar, and they caused it!). Because of one-eyed insistance that Qantas pilots not corrupt the Jetstar culture they were largely blocked from those jobs. So the problem, and the obvious solution, were created in-house, and the obvious ramifications ignored.
Last edited by Australopithecus; 31st May 2014 at 01:00.
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The current QF pilot surplus is a direct result of the "one airline two great brands" failed Joyce strategy.
The two entities are & never were one airline.
Of course it suited Joyce to piggyback QF's reputation of operational safety, but now there's a mainline pilot surplus the two are now separate airlines with their own pilot groups & management structure.
Keeping in mind the expansion of JQ is the root cause of the mainline surplus.
The two entities are & never were one airline.
Of course it suited Joyce to piggyback QF's reputation of operational safety, but now there's a mainline pilot surplus the two are now separate airlines with their own pilot groups & management structure.
Keeping in mind the expansion of JQ is the root cause of the mainline surplus.
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If the pilots VR is anything like other departments it will be a screw up.
A friend of mine in another department had a quote on a VR payment, then completed an EOI to leave the business via VR. His departure is binding but there was no agreed exit date.
He has organised another job to go to, however QF have not advised a departure date from the business and are now telling him they may not release him till late this year or early next year.
He is now in a position that he may loose the offer of employment at the other company & will need to resign without the VR if he wants to go. If the offer of employment is withdrawn because he can't start within a reasonable time, he still has the binding VR to exit QF.
Note to pilots, don't enter a binding VR if you need to exit the business at a fixed date, cause they will screw you around. Get an agreement on a fixed date exit if you need one before entering a binding agreement.
MC.
A friend of mine in another department had a quote on a VR payment, then completed an EOI to leave the business via VR. His departure is binding but there was no agreed exit date.
He has organised another job to go to, however QF have not advised a departure date from the business and are now telling him they may not release him till late this year or early next year.
He is now in a position that he may loose the offer of employment at the other company & will need to resign without the VR if he wants to go. If the offer of employment is withdrawn because he can't start within a reasonable time, he still has the binding VR to exit QF.
Note to pilots, don't enter a binding VR if you need to exit the business at a fixed date, cause they will screw you around. Get an agreement on a fixed date exit if you need one before entering a binding agreement.
MC.
For arguments sake, if an EK and QF pilot take home the same money that is almost irrelevant as the QF pilot is costing Qantas much more to employ than the EK pilot.
QF are forced to pay above market rates by the union. There are plenty of suitable Aussie pilots flying overseas who would happily return home to fly for QF on 2/3 of the current pay scale, but they can't be employed as the union won't allow it.
If the EK pilots don't like what's on the table they can leave, however management will keep turnover to a reasonable level, recognising the value of quality employees to the company.
If the QF pilots don't like what's on offer they go on strike until one side backs down. Turnover used to negligible as it was a job for life.
Aer Lingus had some unbelievably highly paid senior pilots who had to be bought out as part of the companies restructuring. The travelling public wouldn't pay the necessary fares when they could fly cheaper on RYANAIR, or better on any other full service airline. The Irish government weren't going to subsidise things either so nature took its course.