300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
Mstr Caution,
I am not sure if that is the case, I remember a great article in the Financial Times (2010ish) about airlines, it had a graphic which broke down average operating costs into a seat plan for a 100 seat jet. By far the biggest proportion of cost was fuel at 28 seats (I would post the graphic but that is beyond my tech skill). The next most significant cost was staff wages at 20 seats. It then continued with various other costs and the net result was that the profit amounted to ONE seat. As we all know the airline business is a foolhardy one, the amount of return on what are normally huge revenues are miniscule. Obviously this was completed as an exercise in 'averages' but if anything I would think Qantas would be not as 'lean' as some average airlines.
I know that Pilot wages only make up a percentage of the '20' seats but to say that pilot wages have no impact on the bottom line is probably a bit disingenuous. If you could just reduce staff costs by 5% then you can effectively double your profit. By far the easiest way to reduce your staff costs would be to tackle the groups that get paid the most, in Qantas this is likely to be MANAGEMENT, PILOTS, some engineers and perhaps some very senior crew.
As with a lot of modern day businesses Qantas seems to suffer from a bit of the upside down pyramid syndrome, way to top heavy with managers at the top and way to thin on the ground with operational staff. Most, if not all of these cost cutting measures could be achieved without touching operational staff like pilots, but at the end of the day we are easy targets because most, if not all of the rest of the staff see us as massively overpaid for what we do. What the company is not taking into account is that pilots should be treated as any other valuable asset would whether it be property or equipment, you should hold on to these as to sell them is putting in jeopardy your ability to operate in the future.
I am not sure if that is the case, I remember a great article in the Financial Times (2010ish) about airlines, it had a graphic which broke down average operating costs into a seat plan for a 100 seat jet. By far the biggest proportion of cost was fuel at 28 seats (I would post the graphic but that is beyond my tech skill). The next most significant cost was staff wages at 20 seats. It then continued with various other costs and the net result was that the profit amounted to ONE seat. As we all know the airline business is a foolhardy one, the amount of return on what are normally huge revenues are miniscule. Obviously this was completed as an exercise in 'averages' but if anything I would think Qantas would be not as 'lean' as some average airlines.
I know that Pilot wages only make up a percentage of the '20' seats but to say that pilot wages have no impact on the bottom line is probably a bit disingenuous. If you could just reduce staff costs by 5% then you can effectively double your profit. By far the easiest way to reduce your staff costs would be to tackle the groups that get paid the most, in Qantas this is likely to be MANAGEMENT, PILOTS, some engineers and perhaps some very senior crew.
As with a lot of modern day businesses Qantas seems to suffer from a bit of the upside down pyramid syndrome, way to top heavy with managers at the top and way to thin on the ground with operational staff. Most, if not all of these cost cutting measures could be achieved without touching operational staff like pilots, but at the end of the day we are easy targets because most, if not all of the rest of the staff see us as massively overpaid for what we do. What the company is not taking into account is that pilots should be treated as any other valuable asset would whether it be property or equipment, you should hold on to these as to sell them is putting in jeopardy your ability to operate in the future.
Last edited by Ollie Onion; 26th May 2014 at 10:10. Reason: grammar
The Pirate:
Flyboat North you are spot on! Well said, and I am a recently retired Qantas pilot.
Jack
Flyboat North you are spot on! Well said, and I am a recently retired Qantas pilot.
Jack
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Not so. Not even the same State or same ISP.
Tail Wheel
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Ollie.
To clarify my post.
I agree. Pilot wages are a factor on running an airline. I think from memory it makes up around 3% of the operating costs of running an airline.
What I was attempting to point out to FBN. Was that I kept a record of all the wastage and inefficiencies I observed over a month.
Aircraft late tow from the hangar, extra fuel to go fast.
Waiting for connecting cabin crew, extra fuel to fast.
Late catering, extra fuel to go fast.
Delayed service due engineering delay, extra fuel to go fast.
Rostering issues and approaching duty limits, extra fuel to go fast.
Unhappy J class passengers given dinner vouchers for two at top class restaurant, extra expense.
Delays due no cabin crew, international connectors requiring overnight accommodation at extra expense.
What I was saying that the impact of decisions as to how executives choose to run the airline leading to additional costs. Outweighed my after tax income for the entire month.
MC.
To clarify my post.
I agree. Pilot wages are a factor on running an airline. I think from memory it makes up around 3% of the operating costs of running an airline.
What I was attempting to point out to FBN. Was that I kept a record of all the wastage and inefficiencies I observed over a month.
Aircraft late tow from the hangar, extra fuel to go fast.
Waiting for connecting cabin crew, extra fuel to fast.
Late catering, extra fuel to go fast.
Delayed service due engineering delay, extra fuel to go fast.
Rostering issues and approaching duty limits, extra fuel to go fast.
Unhappy J class passengers given dinner vouchers for two at top class restaurant, extra expense.
Delays due no cabin crew, international connectors requiring overnight accommodation at extra expense.
What I was saying that the impact of decisions as to how executives choose to run the airline leading to additional costs. Outweighed my after tax income for the entire month.
MC.
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Sure those things matter, and likely the more aggressive you are with your scheduling , the more delays of one kind or another are going to impact.
But how can you say pilot costs have no impact on the bottom line ?
If on average the pilots at QF are overpaid $100k each , well that is a $200 million liability on your bottom line.
If you have 400 more pilots than you need , that is probably an excess of cost of another 70/80 million.
Well I have to go now because I'm going out to drink some wine with a very pretty young lady.
But how can you say pilot costs have no impact on the bottom line ?
If on average the pilots at QF are overpaid $100k each , well that is a $200 million liability on your bottom line.
If you have 400 more pilots than you need , that is probably an excess of cost of another 70/80 million.
Well I have to go now because I'm going out to drink some wine with a very pretty young lady.
Hope she charges by the 15min, would hate to think she was over paid like those pesky pilots.
The Don
The Don
I could be FBN's Dad, I have lived a full life. Qantas resigned, now retired. But I have been around the block a couple of times including in and out of management and I still agree with FBN, whether he be my son or not. But we are not the same person.
It proves his point that some of you out there think that there is something wrong with anyone that does not agree with your views. That indicates inflated self importance.
Many, many pilots and other staff have been through what is happening in QF at the moment in the last 30 years. One thing we all agree on is, generally, airline management sucks, specifically, Qantas' is no better and sometimes worse.
The thing we should be asking ourselves is:- why is it so?
It proves his point that some of you out there think that there is something wrong with anyone that does not agree with your views. That indicates inflated self importance.
Many, many pilots and other staff have been through what is happening in QF at the moment in the last 30 years. One thing we all agree on is, generally, airline management sucks, specifically, Qantas' is no better and sometimes worse.
The thing we should be asking ourselves is:- why is it so?
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Originally posted by Flyboat North 23rd August 2013
Hold a CPL and wish to complete MECIR which flying schools in Melbourne area currently have this approval, my understanding is that Oxford and TVSA currently are signed off. Does anyone know the mechanisms/rules of doing training under VET in terms of could you do it part time etc ? Any other schools got the tick in the box yet ? Thanks and feel free to PM
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Best plan for recent furrowed pilots.
OK an Adult Airline in decline, it's a well documented process in the evaluation of a well established airline, it falls by the weight of over management,, so join an airline that has a potential of growth, 6 yrs to command plus long term financial growth.
Sorry but this is the way forwarded if you a pilot.
I've been looking at this situation evolving since the low cost airlines came on the scene. It's just the progress of the big financial world of which we as pilots are just pawns .
Sorry but this is the way forwarded if you a pilot.
I've been looking at this situation evolving since the low cost airlines came on the scene. It's just the progress of the big financial world of which we as pilots are just pawns .
Moderator
Certain posts in this thread have been deleted solely because they contain words or comment that are contrary to the PPRuNe rules, or are irrelevant to the thread topic.
A number of posts have been reported to the Mods, however the reported user will not be removed from this thread simply because he/she holds an opposing view to the majority.
It is not my position to determine who may be correct or not, however there is probably elements of truth on both sides of the argument?
Debate the issues, not the man.
And to the "contentious poster", the topic is "300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???" which suggests to me the airline may have made their decision to terminate pilots due to being excessive to the airline's requirements (as it continues to withdraw from international and domestic air routes), rather than any decision related to your alleged excessive crewing costs?
A number of posts have been reported to the Mods, however the reported user will not be removed from this thread simply because he/she holds an opposing view to the majority.
It is not my position to determine who may be correct or not, however there is probably elements of truth on both sides of the argument?
Debate the issues, not the man.
And to the "contentious poster", the topic is "300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???" which suggests to me the airline may have made their decision to terminate pilots due to being excessive to the airline's requirements (as it continues to withdraw from international and domestic air routes), rather than any decision related to your alleged excessive crewing costs?
Thread Starter
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All I can say is : Wowwwww !
I started this thread after reading an article mentioning this 300 pilots figure.
I read a couple of answers thinking this thread would die pretty quickly.
Never did I think it would reach such proportions.
I have to thank you all, as it was all out pure personal interest. See...I work for an airline that is slowly meeting the same fate in a european country that despite its well known arrogance.....is going down the drain...even going as low as making an extreme right party the winner of the day. It shouldn't be too difficult to peg us !
So, having said that, word has it we too are 300 pilots over bloated and of course reading this Qantas figure raised my interest. We are facing the same headaches as to how this will / can be done. Unlike Australia, our super account only gives us a right to a pension. This pension will however, be paid by the working generation......the very one to see its number decline.
So, not only do we face the agony of a declining airline, but our pension fund will also take a hit until it bites the dust leaving retirees with a fig leaf.
I have read all the bickering about salaries and let me tell you, this kind of discussion happens everywhere.
Fact is, people follow their wallet and give bugger all about the name on the tail, or not that much anyway.
The price has to be right, the product up to par with EK and the likes.
Somehow, our neighbours from across the Rhine with their very respectable airline, do not seem to go through the same aonies as we are and I may risk the crazy idea that this might have to do with management.
When I lurk on the EK forums, I see a lot of complaining about working conditions, crazy rosters, people leaving. I recently flew with a F/O whose mate flies for the other big player in the sandpit. He clocked 110 hours a month.....actually on sick leave which might have a lot to do with his roster.
Boys and girls, I am afraid that this is going to be the trend in the future and wish you ......and myself the best of luck for the future.
I started this thread after reading an article mentioning this 300 pilots figure.
I read a couple of answers thinking this thread would die pretty quickly.
Never did I think it would reach such proportions.
I have to thank you all, as it was all out pure personal interest. See...I work for an airline that is slowly meeting the same fate in a european country that despite its well known arrogance.....is going down the drain...even going as low as making an extreme right party the winner of the day. It shouldn't be too difficult to peg us !
So, having said that, word has it we too are 300 pilots over bloated and of course reading this Qantas figure raised my interest. We are facing the same headaches as to how this will / can be done. Unlike Australia, our super account only gives us a right to a pension. This pension will however, be paid by the working generation......the very one to see its number decline.
So, not only do we face the agony of a declining airline, but our pension fund will also take a hit until it bites the dust leaving retirees with a fig leaf.
I have read all the bickering about salaries and let me tell you, this kind of discussion happens everywhere.
Fact is, people follow their wallet and give bugger all about the name on the tail, or not that much anyway.
The price has to be right, the product up to par with EK and the likes.
Somehow, our neighbours from across the Rhine with their very respectable airline, do not seem to go through the same aonies as we are and I may risk the crazy idea that this might have to do with management.
When I lurk on the EK forums, I see a lot of complaining about working conditions, crazy rosters, people leaving. I recently flew with a F/O whose mate flies for the other big player in the sandpit. He clocked 110 hours a month.....actually on sick leave which might have a lot to do with his roster.
Boys and girls, I am afraid that this is going to be the trend in the future and wish you ......and myself the best of luck for the future.
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I completely back QF pilots and I know what I'm about to ask is taking it to another sad level but....
Why doesn't a QF long haul pilot from here post up a copy (blur the personal details obviously) of their payslip? It will put all the haters to bed and maybe the media on side?
Just a thought!
Why doesn't a QF long haul pilot from here post up a copy (blur the personal details obviously) of their payslip? It will put all the haters to bed and maybe the media on side?
Just a thought!
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C173 - Why don't we get Alan Joyce to put a copy of his years end annual complete package on here too.
It might put to bed the statement that AJ's hourly rate is less than a QF Captain.
MC
It might put to bed the statement that AJ's hourly rate is less than a QF Captain.
MC
Alans pay
According to http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/...ration2013.pdf for 2013 AJ got AUD 3.331 million
At 24 hours per day that is $380/hour for AJ.
At 24 hours per day that is $380/hour for AJ.
C173 I think it would be counterproductive to post salary details here as anyone who earns more than 50k a year is perceived to be a filthy rich pig who contributes nothing to the nation.
A myth happily promoted by Labour and seemingly the coalition these days.
I believe that airline pilots are reasonably compensated but are not over paid by any stretch and given that it takes an awful lot of work to get the position and doesn't take much to lose it (and CASA medical are making it easier to lose your medical) a reasonable salary is needed to compensate for the risk. Note: pilots working for anyone other than the major airlines are paid rubbish wages.
I am comfortable, live in a nice house (but not a flashy McMansion) drive one car that is new and another that is 7 years old. My kids are being educated in a middle of the road private school - again not the top of the line prestigious school, but not a crappy one either.
The point I am trying to make is that I don't believe we, as a group, can win the "but our salaries are not the problem" argument in the court of popular opinion, regardless of the truth of the matter.
We can easily be depicted as elitist, over paid and underworked because we don't seem to work all that often (seem is the key word here), we mostly wear uniforms that make us look important(ish) and the mythology is we are really well paid.
I don't know how the real facts can be brought to light - aeroplane leases on non flying aircraft, unproductive scheduling and rostering practices, operational decisions by operations and crewing departments that cost tens of thousands and do so on a daily basis. These are the things that make the difference between profit and loss, yet they are difficult to prove and even harder to explain to the great unwashed.
Sorry, I am rambling, but I just don't see how we can win over the public
A myth happily promoted by Labour and seemingly the coalition these days.
I believe that airline pilots are reasonably compensated but are not over paid by any stretch and given that it takes an awful lot of work to get the position and doesn't take much to lose it (and CASA medical are making it easier to lose your medical) a reasonable salary is needed to compensate for the risk. Note: pilots working for anyone other than the major airlines are paid rubbish wages.
I am comfortable, live in a nice house (but not a flashy McMansion) drive one car that is new and another that is 7 years old. My kids are being educated in a middle of the road private school - again not the top of the line prestigious school, but not a crappy one either.
The point I am trying to make is that I don't believe we, as a group, can win the "but our salaries are not the problem" argument in the court of popular opinion, regardless of the truth of the matter.
We can easily be depicted as elitist, over paid and underworked because we don't seem to work all that often (seem is the key word here), we mostly wear uniforms that make us look important(ish) and the mythology is we are really well paid.
I don't know how the real facts can be brought to light - aeroplane leases on non flying aircraft, unproductive scheduling and rostering practices, operational decisions by operations and crewing departments that cost tens of thousands and do so on a daily basis. These are the things that make the difference between profit and loss, yet they are difficult to prove and even harder to explain to the great unwashed.
Sorry, I am rambling, but I just don't see how we can win over the public
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snakechamer, I can definitely see how it would be very counter-productive, just seems like one of the things we as pilots can use to take a little bit of fuel out of their fire. But yes doubtful we will ever win that battle.
Maybe I should post the media my GA payslip.......
Maybe I should post the media my GA payslip.......