300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
Dear Gen Y (aka Ballsdeep),
It's bloody "lose" not "loose" for the love of God. Please learn to spell. It drives me insane and makes you look stupid.
It's bloody "lose" not "loose" for the love of God. Please learn to spell. It drives me insane and makes you look stupid.
Last edited by spelling_nazi; 18th May 2014 at 08:13.
Good point, Conductor. And I'd wager that FWA would take a considered approach to the submission...say four or five months.
I am aaaamaaaaazed that the flying programme is still a couple of weeks away from being published. It seems to me that Virgin is driving the domestic agenda, and the company is waiting for signs that Joyce's Folly (65% market share) can be wound back.
We need an emoticon to convey "shuffling away, dejected"
I am aaaamaaaaazed that the flying programme is still a couple of weeks away from being published. It seems to me that Virgin is driving the domestic agenda, and the company is waiting for signs that Joyce's Folly (65% market share) can be wound back.
We need an emoticon to convey "shuffling away, dejected"
Conductor,
I think that might be wishful thinking. The FWC is there to provide, amongst other things:
a) providing workplace relations laws that are fair to working Australians, are flexible for businesses, promote productivity and economic growth for Australia’s future economic prosperity and take into account Australia’s international labour obligations;
The FWC is meant to be impartial, and trying to guess future outcomes from previous determinations is not easy.
I truly doubt the Commission ruled the way they did previously to 'show Joyce up' or send a message. They examined the facts and ruled accordingly.
WRT the LOFO section of the award, it would be very difficult to argue that the immense costs of retraining are in the companies best interests, rather than targeted CR. The FWC would be looking at the viability of retraining vs CR and rule on that aspect accordingly.
Those claiming that the LOFO will definitely be adhered to, are, in my opinion, engaging in wishful thinking.
The Commission might not like Joyce (or they might) but that is irrelevant, they will endeavour to be as impartial as possible.
If Qantas can successfully claim that the retaining costs will be prohibitively expensive and possibly cause the demise of LH, then it would be in the best interest of the company AND employees to target CR.
I think that might be wishful thinking. The FWC is there to provide, amongst other things:
a) providing workplace relations laws that are fair to working Australians, are flexible for businesses, promote productivity and economic growth for Australia’s future economic prosperity and take into account Australia’s international labour obligations;
The FWC is meant to be impartial, and trying to guess future outcomes from previous determinations is not easy.
I truly doubt the Commission ruled the way they did previously to 'show Joyce up' or send a message. They examined the facts and ruled accordingly.
WRT the LOFO section of the award, it would be very difficult to argue that the immense costs of retraining are in the companies best interests, rather than targeted CR. The FWC would be looking at the viability of retraining vs CR and rule on that aspect accordingly.
Those claiming that the LOFO will definitely be adhered to, are, in my opinion, engaging in wishful thinking.
The Commission might not like Joyce (or they might) but that is irrelevant, they will endeavour to be as impartial as possible.
If Qantas can successfully claim that the retaining costs will be prohibitively expensive and possibly cause the demise of LH, then it would be in the best interest of the company AND employees to target CR.
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Krusty; Toruk Macto
In 1974 when we were all members of the AFAP it was proposed that there should be a common TAA/Australian/Qantas Seniority List to cover the event of a then foreseen eventual merger even though it may have been a long time in the future.
It was envisaged the list would have been a datal list taking into to account any who were not in datal seniority (there were not very many here) and from the date of implementation all (of either company) new hires would have been on the common list in datal order.
Unfortunately this was never achieved being fought in the AFAP convention tooth and nail by the Overseas Branch (Qantas) strongly assisted by the NSW branch who had a vested interest in Seniority battles needing O’seas branch support for their cause. Datal seniority was not in the NSW branch interest at the time.
The rule of last on/first off should never been allowed to be overruled nor should separate seniority lists for Qantas Long Haul, Domestic and Jetstar have ever been contemplated. All are part of or are the Qantas Group.
There was foresight in the past but self-interest overruled common sense and the common goal.
The airline operator has achieved a goal of having the employees fighting amongst themselves instead of being united fighting the airline operator where the losers will always be the employees. How Qantas Group pilots and APIA have allowed this to happen is beyond me however, a review of the history certainly reveals why.
Qantas management is on a path of self-destruction; how in the world can you give away all your routes and operation to others and expect to survive?
In 1974 when we were all members of the AFAP it was proposed that there should be a common TAA/Australian/Qantas Seniority List to cover the event of a then foreseen eventual merger even though it may have been a long time in the future.
It was envisaged the list would have been a datal list taking into to account any who were not in datal seniority (there were not very many here) and from the date of implementation all (of either company) new hires would have been on the common list in datal order.
Unfortunately this was never achieved being fought in the AFAP convention tooth and nail by the Overseas Branch (Qantas) strongly assisted by the NSW branch who had a vested interest in Seniority battles needing O’seas branch support for their cause. Datal seniority was not in the NSW branch interest at the time.
The rule of last on/first off should never been allowed to be overruled nor should separate seniority lists for Qantas Long Haul, Domestic and Jetstar have ever been contemplated. All are part of or are the Qantas Group.
There was foresight in the past but self-interest overruled common sense and the common goal.
The airline operator has achieved a goal of having the employees fighting amongst themselves instead of being united fighting the airline operator where the losers will always be the employees. How Qantas Group pilots and APIA have allowed this to happen is beyond me however, a review of the history certainly reveals why.
Qantas management is on a path of self-destruction; how in the world can you give away all your routes and operation to others and expect to survive?
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Not sure if the timing of these adds for Chinese contracts are coincidence, but might be of interest to some:
Australian Federation of Air Pilots - Pilot Jobs in Asia Pacific Region
Australian Federation of Air Pilots - Pilot Jobs in Asia Pacific Region
It is not just the LHWD regarding LOFO. It is the Integration Agreement and the Shorthaul Agreement that must be taken into account by FWA.
Whilst I think LOFO would be adhered to within the LHWD, particularly when it reduces to just Airbus to Airbus training, I really cannot see that in the worst case where QF withdraws completely from International Ops, that 80% or so of 737 pilots would be made redundant to accommodate redundant senior longhaul pilots.
Whilst I think LOFO would be adhered to within the LHWD, particularly when it reduces to just Airbus to Airbus training, I really cannot see that in the worst case where QF withdraws completely from International Ops, that 80% or so of 737 pilots would be made redundant to accommodate redundant senior longhaul pilots.
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Dark Knight , agree . It's taken 20 years but the most expensive guys have isolated themselves nicely while trying to protect their patch . A Qantas group list would have come in handy right about now . Well played Qantas !
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Guys, for the sake of your own credibility, can you please refer to the various documents correctly?
The LHWD is not an award. It is not an agreement. It is a determination.
The SHWA is not an award. It is an agreement.
The Integration Award is an award.
Cheers...
The LHWD is not an award. It is not an agreement. It is a determination.
The SHWA is not an award. It is an agreement.
The Integration Award is an award.
Cheers...
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Where could one actually find a copy of the Long Haul Agreement.
People say FWA and other various Govt websites but when you put in generic search terms seems v hard to find.
Perhaps the document is classified ?
People say FWA and other various Govt websites but when you put in generic search terms seems v hard to find.
Perhaps the document is classified ?
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With absolutely zero cohesion amongst Australian airline pilots industrially, a disenfranchised group who have happily allowed T&C to be lowered and seem to actually gain pleasure seeing their colleagues suffer, our profession has no hope in Australia.
Ultimately the whole industry will suffer locally as foreign interests seize the day.
Look at the way the fairfax staff rallied when their company announced cuts and you see the failing of the ultimately ego driven pilot group.
Pretty pathetic.
Ultimately the whole industry will suffer locally as foreign interests seize the day.
Look at the way the fairfax staff rallied when their company announced cuts and you see the failing of the ultimately ego driven pilot group.
Pretty pathetic.
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The discussion could probably use some diversion from the slavering imbeciles whose base monkey instincts have been set free and now can't seem to wait for some fellow pilots and human beings to finally "get theirs". If they do "get theirs" I hope you feel better. Your own situation won't be improved one iota but schadenfreude can last some time so perhaps you won't notice.
Anyway... For some discussion I have a link to the Kendall decision which people should read in order to avoid making a few errant assumptions.
The use of this decision by Qantas is neither assured, nor is the outcome that some may be hoping for.
http://www.stuartwood.com.au/upload_...%2023.7.02.pdf
Anyway... For some discussion I have a link to the Kendall decision which people should read in order to avoid making a few errant assumptions.
The use of this decision by Qantas is neither assured, nor is the outcome that some may be hoping for.
http://www.stuartwood.com.au/upload_...%2023.7.02.pdf
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Has anyone asked Flt Ops to peak over the other side of the fence?
A Longhaul CSM told me last week he's been offered a VR which after tax implications is equivalent to a 3 years of service payment.
He's leaving the joint by years end.
A Longhaul CSM told me last week he's been offered a VR which after tax implications is equivalent to a 3 years of service payment.
He's leaving the joint by years end.
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Thanks for that link Capt K. All the trolls and many others should have a read, personally I have been very concerned about redundancy out of seniority but it has alayed those fears somewhat. The Kendall case makes interesting reading and is a very different to scenario to QF at the moment. Thats not to say QANTAS could end up mounting a case as per the Kendall decision but it would just take a lot more incompetent management to get there which from first hand experience is possible.
•Command Instrument Rating with 8 renewals – multi-engine.
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Mstr caution,
Don't believe everything CSMs or other flight attendants tell you about their package for VR. To get anywhere near that $300,000 the crew member would be flying for 50 years, been a cabin manager the whole time and the total figure would include all unused LSL and annual leave. I don't think anyone has been flying 50 years, we just look like it. Maybe someone will reach $200,000 but it will be as rare as rocking horse $51t.
Don't believe everything CSMs or other flight attendants tell you about their package for VR. To get anywhere near that $300,000 the crew member would be flying for 50 years, been a cabin manager the whole time and the total figure would include all unused LSL and annual leave. I don't think anyone has been flying 50 years, we just look like it. Maybe someone will reach $200,000 but it will be as rare as rocking horse $51t.