300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
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Well for the last few years Shorthaul has been known as the "Bunker" for good reason, its just like a fallout shelter for the Nuclear Winter which will beset Longhaul. For the short term anyway, once a replacement aircraft is chosen for Shorthaul then the same $hit different day will occur once more to Shorthaul crew.
I made a vow to retire the day I turn sixty, plus one day for every post/complaint/whinge about over-60s. So now I have to stay until I am 78. Happy?
Seriously this industry is well past it's expiry date. I'm going to spend the next few years educating my boy on a real career.
Last edited by Berealgetreal; 15th May 2014 at 11:28.
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Qantas made me redundant in March 1967 with 2 days notice! When I complained the answer was simple " sue us, we're the government, see who wins"!
Sounds like nothing much has changed!
Sounds like nothing much has changed!
Reports I saw said approx 100 pilots and with 50-60/yr leaving at mandatory 65yo anyway the rest would be from volunteers leaving maybe a few yrs early and taking the package once its determined.
Is that not correct?? Where did this 300 number come from and over what time period is this supposed to all happen??
Is that not correct?? Where did this 300 number come from and over what time period is this supposed to all happen??
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BNEA320
Please go away - you ask the wrong questions again and again. Your information is inaccurate and you phrase the question to antagonise and inflame. Through no fault of their own pilots are being retrenched, please shut up or go away.
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Integration award, LH award, etc
Both the shorthaul and long haul awards have paragraphs in them that state that they come under the integration agreement, and that where there is a disparity between either award and the integration agreement, that the integration agreement will prevail.
In the instance of redundancies, that paragraphs I quoted above would apply, irrespective of what it says in the short haul or long haul award. If you are beneath the y and retrenchments occur, they are to be done as per the pilots award, defined in the integration agreement as the old 1989 long haul award, or whatever it turns into, in this case the 2013 WD.
In that case, it is your seniority in the Qantas system that will determine whether you are promoted or demoted, as per clause 16.4. The question is, what is retrenchment?
There is even a legal argument that in the case of redundancies that paragraph 16.4 would apply over the RIN process for demotions and promotion, the trigger being that a redundancy has occurred.
One thing is sure, this is happening and it will end in tears for a lot of people, and cost the company a motza.
In the instance of redundancies, that paragraphs I quoted above would apply, irrespective of what it says in the short haul or long haul award. If you are beneath the y and retrenchments occur, they are to be done as per the pilots award, defined in the integration agreement as the old 1989 long haul award, or whatever it turns into, in this case the 2013 WD.
In that case, it is your seniority in the Qantas system that will determine whether you are promoted or demoted, as per clause 16.4. The question is, what is retrenchment?
There is even a legal argument that in the case of redundancies that paragraph 16.4 would apply over the RIN process for demotions and promotion, the trigger being that a redundancy has occurred.
One thing is sure, this is happening and it will end in tears for a lot of people, and cost the company a motza.
Last edited by bigwatch; 15th May 2014 at 09:29. Reason: Autocorrect
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Balls and BNEA320 ,
I would be more worried about the financial viability of the whole group IMO, Plane talking just had another article with a pic of lined up Jetstar Japan aircraft parked at Narita. The whole joint could go tits up very soon and it is closer than a lot of people think, treading water with 3billion dollars worth of gold attached, the whole lot is at risk of going under in the short to medium term... I wouldn't throw stones when the risk of a ricochet is extremely likely, and that would be a fatal richochet.
I would be more worried about the financial viability of the whole group IMO, Plane talking just had another article with a pic of lined up Jetstar Japan aircraft parked at Narita. The whole joint could go tits up very soon and it is closer than a lot of people think, treading water with 3billion dollars worth of gold attached, the whole lot is at risk of going under in the short to medium term... I wouldn't throw stones when the risk of a ricochet is extremely likely, and that would be a fatal richochet.
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So Balls by getting with the times we are supposed to now work for !!!! all like the peanuts who will now fly for !!!! all. Whatever you reckon but I think I'll head OS get paid more pay less tax and work less like many mates have done already. Don't want too but the whole country is going down the crapper, big business wants more for less while paying their management mega bucks. The market is now OS (pilots can earn more in China than in Oz) so supply and demand will call the shots as it always does. JMHO which you know doubt will bag.
Look I'm all for getting the best deal for pilots, and lets unite and all that bull ****
nitpicker330 put it quite succinctly:
Idiot.
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Beer baron are you saying we all should be paid as well as qantas pilots? I think so, but in the end we should all be on the same pay in the qantas group somewhere between qantas and virgin rates. Hell most jetstar guys r happy to b on tiger rates and most qantas guys would just like to be employed. In the end we can all agree mis management has put us here and it's not the pilots fault but we are paying the price. This arguing between the pilot groups is only making us weaker 
Interestingly enough I don't hear of enormous amounts of cancelled flights due Jetstar pilots leaving. Actually you don't hear of any. When it really gets bad a 100 flights a day go.
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I can say with 100% reliability that the only QF pilots on 350k would be about 75% of A380 Captains, a few dozen 747 Captains and several 737 Captains that do 1000 stick hours per year. In all about 150 of 2000 pilots. I can also say with 100% reliability that dozens of A330 S/O's are struggling to top 80k after 6 years service. QF mainline is a scrambled egg and only the top earners generally get attention. I however agree that the Long haul award is cumbersome and expensive, thus the reason for the company to phase it out. You need your pilots doing 800-1000 stick hours per year and its almost impossible under the Long haul award to do it. But as a final note I don't believe the Long haul award is a major reason why QF is losing it, its management and government policy mainly.
BD - you are an absolute tosser.
Every pilot who has joined any big airline did so with the understanding that the EBA agreement or equivalent determined who got promoted, demoted and retrenched.
This applies whether you are 6 (your mental age) or 60.
To single out pilots on the basis of age is simply not on.
PS - I have been retrenched from 2 large airlines at age 38 and 52. Well over 60 now and still flying with just as much right as any other pilot within the constraints of the workplace agreement.
Every pilot who has joined any big airline did so with the understanding that the EBA agreement or equivalent determined who got promoted, demoted and retrenched.
This applies whether you are 6 (your mental age) or 60.
To single out pilots on the basis of age is simply not on.
PS - I have been retrenched from 2 large airlines at age 38 and 52. Well over 60 now and still flying with just as much right as any other pilot within the constraints of the workplace agreement.
Strict seniority in any company EBA is Not a guarantee in this day of age. ,!!
I don't work for qantas but feel very sorry for the stress you guys/girls must be going through. (I have gone through it myself both in aviation and prior).
I will say however, no agreement / EBA these days of guaranteed last on - first off / strict seniority etc, means much these days. Companies can easily go to FWA (particularly when in hardship and losing hundreds of millions) and if they can show those agreements cost more than than the proposed redundancies (and hence even more company hardship and even further redundancies), can argue and will probably win, exclusion from those previous agreements.
I kid you not, do not take those clauses for granted and think your safe. Work together to do anything for a deal that is remotely acceptable to the most, otherwise the company will win in FWA. Good luck!
I don't work for qantas but feel very sorry for the stress you guys/girls must be going through. (I have gone through it myself both in aviation and prior).
I will say however, no agreement / EBA these days of guaranteed last on - first off / strict seniority etc, means much these days. Companies can easily go to FWA (particularly when in hardship and losing hundreds of millions) and if they can show those agreements cost more than than the proposed redundancies (and hence even more company hardship and even further redundancies), can argue and will probably win, exclusion from those previous agreements.
I kid you not, do not take those clauses for granted and think your safe. Work together to do anything for a deal that is remotely acceptable to the most, otherwise the company will win in FWA. Good luck!
I just hope everyone pulls their weight and gets through this quickly and cleanly.
Qantas long haul terms and conditions are gone. Guys are living in la la land if they think it's sustainable. If you want to continue earning north of 300k, go overseas. They've got to pay that rate as not many locals have the skills, and no expat would go unless there was something lucrative in it for them. It's not just the pilots though. The bloated salaries go right through the company from flight ops to ramp, engineering to management. I mean Qantas have a whole floor of people devoted to load sheets. Jetstar have an iPad app and the pilots do it on a 25 min turn. Qantas is still run internally like a government department. It's heavily unionised and resistant to change.
The market rate in Australia will settle somewhere between Jetstar and virgin. For everybody, not just pilots.
I see Qantas international as we know it gone very soon. Jetstar flying to leisure destinations internationally with a token 787 fleet and Qantas pilots operating 330s and 737s domestically under the short haul agreement.
The 380s will be flipped to Emirates or purely fly the pacific under a restructured eba closer to the pilot award.
Qantas long haul terms and conditions are gone. Guys are living in la la land if they think it's sustainable. If you want to continue earning north of 300k, go overseas. They've got to pay that rate as not many locals have the skills, and no expat would go unless there was something lucrative in it for them. It's not just the pilots though. The bloated salaries go right through the company from flight ops to ramp, engineering to management. I mean Qantas have a whole floor of people devoted to load sheets. Jetstar have an iPad app and the pilots do it on a 25 min turn. Qantas is still run internally like a government department. It's heavily unionised and resistant to change.
The market rate in Australia will settle somewhere between Jetstar and virgin. For everybody, not just pilots.
I see Qantas international as we know it gone very soon. Jetstar flying to leisure destinations internationally with a token 787 fleet and Qantas pilots operating 330s and 737s domestically under the short haul agreement.
The 380s will be flipped to Emirates or purely fly the pacific under a restructured eba closer to the pilot award.