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300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???

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300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???

Old 9th Jun 2014, 13:20
  #601 (permalink)  
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If true, it is sad. Very, very sad.
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Old 9th Jun 2014, 14:39
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Metroboy

A more likely scenario is the administrators are called in to QF mainline and labour contracts will be renegotiated with the current work force. You know the deal, shutdown the airline for a few days and let the unions think about what pay rates they'd accept to get aircraft flying again.

Alternatively, the end game is "near" played out and AIPA and it's members agree to an EBA that's "negotiated" and saves the arrival of the administrators and a potential shutdown.

Some pilots will then walk from Mainline in disgust, those that choose to stay will be offered pay scales and efficiencies in a new agreement closer to or equivalent to JQ rates.

QF management job complete, Qantas trained, experienced crew at reduced pay rates and willing to accept the lower pay rate, rather then disappear overseas. No need for new Qantas Uniforms, they already have ones that fit.

Don't forget Metroboy, calling in the Administrators still means the pilots are paid a CR & those QF guys and girls are so expensive with the those CR's per the WD. Even though the CR's will be paid after the creditors.

AJ wants those mainline pilots, he just wants to pay them less.

One thing you need to figure into your M.O is QF pilots earnt those uniforms and given the opportunity of handing them back or accepting a lower rate to keep them. I'm guessing most will choose the latter. Meaning your JQ mates may have to wait a little longer to get their mits on a QF uniform. AJ saves the costs of revamping JQ into a premium airline and he's further reduced mainline costs.

Don't forget Metroboy. QF management are playing all the QF Groups pilots, not just Mainline.
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Old 9th Jun 2014, 14:40
  #603 (permalink)  
 
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So what happens? The QF group goes into administration. It's Ansett all over again. The Administrators move in with the dual goal of salvaging as much money for the creditors, and making as much money for themselves. So they split the component parts up and offer them for sale. Nobody touches the mainline operation. Too expensive. But SQ, EH, EK and QR go into battle for JQ and the winner rebrands it into a premium carrier. Domestic feed, check. Premium international operations on the lowest cost base in the region, check. Billions of dollars are poured into service improvements and aircraft acquisitions. And nobody in JQ gets a dime extra, check. Welcome to the brave new world.
The very first thing that would happen if the group went into receivership, would be the lessors immediately move in and take back the leased aircraft. Bang! There goes most of the Jetstar fleet on day 1. They would be taken straight offshore as soon as possible before any other creditor tried to have them impounded.

The mainline fleet on the other hand is significantly more outright owned or complex financed. The mainline fleet becomes parked as the sorting of the mess begins. The administrators then look for buyers for all the bits, with all the creditors in the queue for payment.

Buyers looking to rebirth an airline; look at the mainline branded stuff, aircraft, lounges, terminal leases, spares etc etc v the same for Jetstar. The buyers don't care less about what the staff conditions were before the collapse, they will be employing on completely new terms anyway, even lower than Jetstar. They are primarily interested in the hard assets and perhaps what's left of the branding and how quickly they can get it going before someone else moves into the market.

So what do think most buyers would likely do? Buy whatever has not been repossessed of Jetstar and try and lease new aircraft and everything else to rebuild the low cost carrier and then turn it into a premium carrier? Or do they try and snap up the good mainline assets for a bargain price or lease from the administrators and get the already Qantas branded stuff quickly back in the air; rehiring staff on a very "new" deal?

I may be wrong, but I understand the Tesna deal out of the Ansett ashes did not include staff being rehired on the same Ansett terms, unless it was an award not an agreement, but there was some dispute over the carry over entitlements. I'm sure today, it would be no questions, just out with the old terms, in with the new terms, take it or leave it.

Of course if it doesn't come to administration, then there is much more likelihood of some kind of rebranding/expansion from the low cost terms and conditions into the mainline brand. The hard part is doing this whilst maintaining the main brand to keep the customer base and all the employment regulation hurdles that have to be overcome.
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Old 9th Jun 2014, 17:26
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Australopethicus,

Mate, no one is earning 320k flying for a Chinese airline. CSA are paying more than the old CA rates but not 320k.

But the point still stands; the wages bill in the cockpit of a Chinese airliner is very low compared to the west despite them carrying 1-2 more crewmembers per sector. Expat salaries even using your inflated figure still represent a very small sample of crewing costs.

You will notice we are not arguing on the same page. I made reference to COST to the airline; your approach is INCOME to the pilot.

Very different things from a personal perspective yet one is much more important than the other.
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Old 9th Jun 2014, 21:30
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AJ will want a quick LH negotiation. It will be "increased efficiencies" to save LH pilots from CR.

As I've mentioned previously, this EBA needs to be a long, protected & significantly delayed negotiation.

The closer it gets to AJ's magical turnaround date, the more pressure is applied to AJ.

The company may give the pilot group 6 months notification of possible CR as per the determination. But it will be part of their pressure to get a quick resolution to next LH negotiations.

What the company may not realise is they have already burnt up whatever good will remained within the LH group with the latest round of RIN's. Some pilots will be taking a pay cut associated with a demotion, so they will not be voting to accept a further reduction to their pay.

The company will say, a pay drop is better than job losses. Play their bluff & remember last on first off and mainline CR's are very expensive.

MC
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Old 9th Jun 2014, 23:20
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There are some well paid jobs in China,

Hainan Airlines A340 Captains | Longreach Aviation Resources
Jobs | VOR Holdings

However the top paying contracts mean full time living in China, your job constantly in jeopardy because of the medical or simulator, contract terms not honoured and you will be replaced as soon as a cheaper option becomes available.
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Old 9th Jun 2014, 23:28
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However the top paying contracts mean full time living in China, your job constantly in jeopardy because of the medical or simulator, contract terms not honoured and you will be replaced as soon as a cheaper option becomes available.
So, with the exception of living in High Cost Australia, it's the same as working for Elaine then...
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 00:04
  #608 (permalink)  
 
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Play their bluff & remember last on first off
A very scary attitude which may end with an airline closing. The last on first off rule means nothing in this day and age of FWA. A company can easily (when losing hundreds of millions of dollars), seek exemption from that rule, or any other actually, and will probably get it. If the unions are telling you different they are not being straight with you.

Never rule out negotiating. Otherwise your bluff just might backfire and it is you who will be bluffed.
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 00:19
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If the unions are telling you different they are not being straight with you.
Just to squash that before it becomes another rumour, the association have said nothing like that. Cooler heads currently prevail, and to be honest it is a breath of fresh air after the last 10 years.
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 00:40
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You're all trying to make yourselves feel better but it's not just about pilots. Nobody will bother dealing with the 15 QF unions regardless of whether the SkyGods offer to keep their uniforms for free. Mainline is a dead duck and the cockroach will be the only survivor.
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 00:49
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Oicur12.again...

It does not escape me that airline costs are what occupies the minds of what passes for executives these days. Airline revenues, on the other hand, seem to be too mysterious to tackle. Unless its some derivative venture like selling frequent flyer points to credit card companies and the gullible travellers.

It may surprise you to learn that I was once an enthusiastic champion of cost- cutting, looking for inovative ways to perform tasks cheaper and better. The airline for which I did that is still flourishing. Great leadership.

For this pack of sphincters however I could not care less. That's because its mutual, and any savings which I could discover would be quickly claimed by some KPI whore to feed the bonus pool.

Those guys work their side of the street; I work mine. They have their costs and I have mine. If we ever get a board and executive that want to explore ways to make the legacy carrier work I will be their boy. Until then, I just do my job the best way I know how, engage my passengers and crew in a friendly, helpful manner and try try try to be objective about each day's new missive about stupid sh*t that the airline emails us. (akin to publishing ever new deck seating arrangements on a doomed ship)
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 03:35
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For all the juvenile clowns that continually refer to QF pilots as "sky gods" you realise as soon as you trot out this jealousy - tinged childish taunt, you lose all credibility in your argument?

How old are you idiots? 12?

Grow up
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 03:54
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Metroboy

You are right about the cockroach analogy.

Shine the light of financial accountability on the JQ return on investment and like cockroaches an executive will make an quick exit for somewhere to hide.

What's your take on JQ withdrawing from one of the most lucrative domestic routes, Brisbane to Perth.

What's with the low cost penetration on that route?
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 04:01
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Well said spelling nazi.

My take on JQ pulling out from Perth-Brisbane is that they were not making money on that route, so they pulled out.

What magical conspiracy theory can you develop dude?
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 04:29
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Sorry for the naivety of this, but can anyone answer this question.

Given that the common problem here is J* (and AJ - but that is another whole issue) is it too late for QF to back off?

To be a little more specific, if Qantas was to concede defeat in its low cost carrier, re-merge the fleet, and maintain focus solely on Qantas domestic and a company wide restructure later to expand back into the international game.

As it has been noted a number of times, Qantas Intl hasn't made a quid in quite a while, would it not be beneficial to focus on the cash cow and try to salvage your domestic ops?

In relation to the J* - we all know in Asia, only the Asians make money. Why are QF continuing to flog a dead horse? Dissolve the J* international, and slowly move J* domestic ops back into QF mainline domestic ops.

I understand the concept of management creating a loss making carrier, but they have failed to compete with Virgin, they are not going anywhere.

Back down, accept defeat, work with what you've got and try to salvage Qantas...
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 04:38
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AJ will never concede the defeat of Jetstar. That is the problem.
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 04:41
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That may possibly make economic sense, but ignores financial interests and ego's.

This lot will flog it until it is dead and don't give a rats about any consequences for anyone but themselves.
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 04:49
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Spelling Nazi,

You're a perfect example of why you've inherited the term. You think everyone is jealous because they don't fly for QF? Hell no! The thought of spending an entire day sitting next to the likes of yourself is giving me diarrhoea…
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 05:00
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And what makes a Virgin or Tiger pilot sooooo much better, as you are implying here ballsdeep?

Virgin pilots walking around with their metrosexual beards, man bags and try hard Qantas-wana-be hats.
Then you hear them, day in day out saying "Moderate Turbulance through flight level 260-380..." Moderate? Have you blokes read the definition of moderate turbulance? Just a bunch of women dressed as male pilots.

Last edited by Ultergra; 10th Jun 2014 at 05:03. Reason: Clarification
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Old 10th Jun 2014, 05:01
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Name calling in a "professional pilots forum". It only demonstrates one thing. Immaturity. Knocking those in a better position than yourself? Jealousy. It's not rocket science to see that son. Its playground 101.

And if you had a brain you'd realise I'm not saying all pilots are jealous of qantas pilots, especially at the moment. Just those like yourself who insist on name calling . It's pathetic .

You bleat on and on about how you're not jealous , there's really only one conclusion; that you are.
It's as obvious as your low intelligence and emotional maturity level.

Oh balls deep , one day you'll grow up, and re-read your drivel on this forum and be ashamed of yourself. Until then, run off and play now... You're making a fool of yourself.
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