MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
Nunc est bibendum
If divisors are at 175 one the 787 two things are happening.
1. Training is happening to the tune of 1 training slot per 7.8 crew.
2. Crew exceed regulatory limits within 12 months.
It's not sustainable and if it's happening in the short term it means a bunch of new promotions in the medium term.
1. Training is happening to the tune of 1 training slot per 7.8 crew.
2. Crew exceed regulatory limits within 12 months.
It's not sustainable and if it's happening in the short term it means a bunch of new promotions in the medium term.
short flights long nights
EK...DXB to SFO is around 17 hours flight time. I'm sure this must be one of the longest long haul around. 48 hours ( chock to chock ) on the ground in SFO and then it's back to DXB. 2 local nights off in Dxb, and then it's time to go again. 93 hours flight time a month. That's is punishing.
Until I stopped flying, I did not realise just how tired I really was, and what it was doing to my body.
Until I stopped flying, I did not realise just how tired I really was, and what it was doing to my body.
I won't fly this so I'm only a devils advocate. 175 stick in 8 weeks is 21.785 hours a week. 46 weeks flying a year after leave is 1006 hours a year. A fatigue management system is coming and I'd say you will end up doing the 1000 hours a year.
Nunc est bibendum
Currently with night credits a 175 hour divisor equates to about 132 stick hours.
Under current scheduling a 5 day trip but could be reduced to 4. 25/56 or 20/56 worked and 152 hours tour of duty. Even on the 767 when we were regularly flying international, a 170 hour divisor would yield 145+ stick. I also did a couple of 80 credit hour rosters with 72 stick (160/ 84). 29-30/56 days worked. Total tour of duty hours in the 230-240 range.
Until I stopped flying, I did not realise just how tired I really was, and what it was doing to my body.
It's not till you stop you realise how hard it has been on your body.
Night credits are not to be pooh-poohed. Just sayin' ....
PS: Keg - I drank when I was away on maybe 2-3 trips per year and only then if it was a particularly 'good' crew. Otherwise I was a complete tea-totaler at work. I certainly don't judge people for drinking (far from it) I just could not have physically coped with it.
PPS: Keg - I hesitate to say this, and I mean NO disrespect at all, but you have 'only' been Blunderbussing for a short while. What I am alluding to is very long term tiredness. And it's a personal thing, I don't like it and a lot of other people I know don't either, but others seem to deal with it quite well. A study would be interesting - look at the photos of the fresh faced 20yo's in any business and compare them with the 60yo's. In my experience (anecdotal only) the QF guys don't look so hot...
Last edited by V-Jet; 19th Jul 2015 at 11:22.
Back to back to back to back 10/11 day LHRs with a DFW squeezed in to really screw things up.
I was never really tired with domestos
Different strokes and all that
I was never really tired with domestos
Different strokes and all that
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Originally Posted by dragon man
I would point out that a planning divisor and the actual divisor are two very different things. I would suggest that although the planning divisor is 155 the actual divisor will be closer to 175 hours and that is stick hours. Currently with night credits a 175 hour divisor equates to about 132 stick hours. Thats an extra 43 stick hours per bid period or approx two additional Narita trips.
My belief is that the at least the first initial eight aircraft will all be used for ultra long hall,operations hence four man crew and no night credits. Two question for which I am looking for an answer if someone knows it. If under the 787 operation you fly to 900 hours and have say three weeks available where you can't fly but are been paid what will that pay be? Ie minimum guarantee or divisor? Secondly could you be used during that time to do simulator supports only? Thanks in advance.
Nunc est bibendum
PPS: Keg - I hesitate to say this, and I mean NO disrespect at all, but you have 'only' been Blunderbussing for a short while.
What I am alluding to is very long term tiredness. And it's a personal thing, I don't like it and a lot of other people I know don't either, but others seem to deal with it quite well. A study would be interesting......
Nunc est bibendum
f under the 787 operation you fly to 900 hours and have say three weeks available where you can't fly but are been paid what will that pay be? Ie minimum guarantee or divisor? Secondly could you be used during that time to do simulator supports only? Thanks in advance.
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MGH or divisor pay
Once you hit the annual limit you will be paid MGH only. At least this was the case under the EBA when it happened to me. I don't think it would have changed under the WD.
Back in June there was a story about AJ's former speech writer going rogue with a book about the lockout.
Anyone know the outcome of that?
Anyone know the outcome of that?
AJ gets away with it again
Keg
Remember they did one with UniSA several years ago? It was supposed to inform all sorts of interesting rule changes to deal with fatigue and included little wrist bands (today known as a FitBit) to record your sleep, sleep diaries and post-duty simulator sessions to assess your performance after a long duty.
That study went away, never to be heard of again and the results were never made publically available. Presumed they lifted a rock, didn't like the look of what was underneath it and gently placed it back, hoping that whatever was under there wouldn't escape.
Never lift the rock....
A study would indeed be interesting
That study went away, never to be heard of again and the results were never made publically available. Presumed they lifted a rock, didn't like the look of what was underneath it and gently placed it back, hoping that whatever was under there wouldn't escape.
Never lift the rock....
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The Book
Thanks 1a,
No surprises there I guess.
Supreme Court Today. She has had the muzzle placed on and the keys to the padlock thrown away. We wont hear a word of the truth.
AJ gets away with it again
AJ gets away with it again
No surprises there I guess.
Keg:
A 20yo is different to a 30yo and VERY different to a 40yo. 50 and 60 I don't know about yet, but it's not looking good!
Someone years ago said to me that your body changes when you get to 40. Naturally I didn't believe them. Naturally I was proven wrong! It was 'about' 40 when being 'tired' meant a lot more than it used to.
-- sorry guys - I thought this would reply under Kegs previous.
On the sleeping patterns assessments and wristbands etc. I hoped I would be wrong, but I did say at the time any report would never see the light of day. It's quite possibly voluminous enough to be of use to prop the legs of AJ's office chair up so he can reach the desk, so all that time and effort (and assessment sims people did after L O N G tours of duty) possibly weren't in vain after all
A 20yo is different to a 30yo and VERY different to a 40yo. 50 and 60 I don't know about yet, but it's not looking good!
Someone years ago said to me that your body changes when you get to 40. Naturally I didn't believe them. Naturally I was proven wrong! It was 'about' 40 when being 'tired' meant a lot more than it used to.
-- sorry guys - I thought this would reply under Kegs previous.
On the sleeping patterns assessments and wristbands etc. I hoped I would be wrong, but I did say at the time any report would never see the light of day. It's quite possibly voluminous enough to be of use to prop the legs of AJ's office chair up so he can reach the desk, so all that time and effort (and assessment sims people did after L O N G tours of duty) possibly weren't in vain after all
Sim study.
I think, but I'm not completely sure, that the Sim study ended up with an unforecast result.
Two sets of crews compared.
First set - consisted of two people, Captain and F/O called in from home. Refreshed. Not sleep deprived.
Second set - had all just done a 9 day JFK pattern. Capt and F/O [only] went straight into the Sim on arrival from LAX. No rest. Eyeballs hanging out.
But - guess what - The tired crews outperformed the fresh ones from home.
Hmmm. Why? The tired pairings had just been working together for 9 days, including a couple of demanding two man sectors together across the US to JFK and back and had gotten used to each other's style of operation.
The two from home had quite possibly never met each other and were coming in 'cold'.
About that time, it all went very quiet on the study. Didn't hear anything about it after that.
[Also, possibly, the crews might have been mismatched in terms of operational experience. The JFK crews would most probably have been senior guys and the guys on A days quite possibly junior in rank. Whether that is a + or a - you are free to debate.]
Two sets of crews compared.
First set - consisted of two people, Captain and F/O called in from home. Refreshed. Not sleep deprived.
Second set - had all just done a 9 day JFK pattern. Capt and F/O [only] went straight into the Sim on arrival from LAX. No rest. Eyeballs hanging out.
But - guess what - The tired crews outperformed the fresh ones from home.
Hmmm. Why? The tired pairings had just been working together for 9 days, including a couple of demanding two man sectors together across the US to JFK and back and had gotten used to each other's style of operation.
The two from home had quite possibly never met each other and were coming in 'cold'.
About that time, it all went very quiet on the study. Didn't hear anything about it after that.
[Also, possibly, the crews might have been mismatched in terms of operational experience. The JFK crews would most probably have been senior guys and the guys on A days quite possibly junior in rank. Whether that is a + or a - you are free to debate.]