MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
Nunc est bibendum
PM3207, AJs comments were internal. Private dr dre? Not entirely. I wasn't the only one to hear his words.
Generally speaking I think it's an interesting statement as to where we're at that I don't instinctively trust what the CEO says. Too many times I've been told that everything was OK only to be later shafted.
Reflecting back on my earlier comments and subsequent discussions with others, there have been some contrary interpretations as to whether the future direction re the AOC and sell off of the FF will be announced with the results or soon after. The general thrust was that it will be soon. I took it to be Aug 28. Others felt it may not be then but very soon.
Generally speaking I think it's an interesting statement as to where we're at that I don't instinctively trust what the CEO says. Too many times I've been told that everything was OK only to be later shafted.
Reflecting back on my earlier comments and subsequent discussions with others, there have been some contrary interpretations as to whether the future direction re the AOC and sell off of the FF will be announced with the results or soon after. The general thrust was that it will be soon. I took it to be Aug 28. Others felt it may not be then but very soon.
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How much have Joyce and Clifford Lost?
Just done some calculations based on how much Clifford and Joyce have lost in all of their failed endeavours.
Previous posts have focused on profit and loss - which is fair enough especially as the loss for this year is widely expected to be +\- 1 billion dollars. That is one big number and one that is going focus the attention of the media and the broader community on the mess they have made.
But when you go back and look at the share price historically from the appointment date of Clifford and Joyce the situation is much much worse. And I'm talking not just few billion. Try 8.
We all know the general stats that when these fools were appointed the share price was much higher - at one stage hovering around $5.50 And that's the problem - most discussion of the last 5 years tends to dwell on the destruction they have wrought as being counted in single digit dollars in the share price.
It's only when you expand it all out that the true extent of the destruction of share holder value becomes obscenely obvious.
2,196,330,250 shares issued as of today.
Market cap today at $1.28
= $2,811,302,720
Joyce appointed Nov 28 2008
Market cap on that day at $2.23
= $4,897,816,457.5
Which means that Joyce has been responsible for a loss of share holder value that equates to $2,086,513,740. And that's before the 1 billion or so dip in profit is announced. The board must be very happy with him because they have paid him $22,000,000 to achieve that 2 billion dollar loss. Which is the only thing he has achieved during his 5 year (plus 1) plan.
But it gets worse.
Clifford was appointed 14 Nov 2007
Market cap on that day at $5.09
= $11,179,320,972.50 which
equates to a loss of share holder value of:
$8,368,018,25
I'm simply staggered and appalled to see these losses quantified in black and white.
There is much talk that Joyce will out soon. But as you see he is only a wee apprentice to the 8 Billion Dollar Chairman.
Let's hope there are enough long suffering private investors out there prepared to stand up at the AGM and ask the board in general, and the Chairman specifically - hey what about our 8 billion?.
Previous posts have focused on profit and loss - which is fair enough especially as the loss for this year is widely expected to be +\- 1 billion dollars. That is one big number and one that is going focus the attention of the media and the broader community on the mess they have made.
But when you go back and look at the share price historically from the appointment date of Clifford and Joyce the situation is much much worse. And I'm talking not just few billion. Try 8.
We all know the general stats that when these fools were appointed the share price was much higher - at one stage hovering around $5.50 And that's the problem - most discussion of the last 5 years tends to dwell on the destruction they have wrought as being counted in single digit dollars in the share price.
It's only when you expand it all out that the true extent of the destruction of share holder value becomes obscenely obvious.
2,196,330,250 shares issued as of today.
Market cap today at $1.28
= $2,811,302,720
Joyce appointed Nov 28 2008
Market cap on that day at $2.23
= $4,897,816,457.5
Which means that Joyce has been responsible for a loss of share holder value that equates to $2,086,513,740. And that's before the 1 billion or so dip in profit is announced. The board must be very happy with him because they have paid him $22,000,000 to achieve that 2 billion dollar loss. Which is the only thing he has achieved during his 5 year (plus 1) plan.
But it gets worse.
Clifford was appointed 14 Nov 2007
Market cap on that day at $5.09
= $11,179,320,972.50 which
equates to a loss of share holder value of:
$8,368,018,25
I'm simply staggered and appalled to see these losses quantified in black and white.
There is much talk that Joyce will out soon. But as you see he is only a wee apprentice to the 8 Billion Dollar Chairman.
Let's hope there are enough long suffering private investors out there prepared to stand up at the AGM and ask the board in general, and the Chairman specifically - hey what about our 8 billion?.
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Typo
This just in. SMH.
Deep cuts: Gareth Evans.
“For us, it’s about controlling what we can control, and pulling out $1 billion worth of costs [and] continuing to improve the network and the product quality for our customers is absolutely what we can control,” Mr Evans said at the CAPA Australia Pacific Aviation Summit."
Obviously this is a misprint. What he obviously said was
" ... continuing to dismantle and reduce the network and decrease the product quality for our customers is absolutely what we can control,”
He expects people will believe this crap. That they can rip 1 billon dollars from international and increase the network and improve quality for pax. CASA needs to get those fancy drug testing kits up to the campus in coward street. What has he been smokin? Or in all likelyhood Olivia drafted that little gem.
BTW hasn't she be quiet lately? What gives?
Deep cuts: Gareth Evans.
“For us, it’s about controlling what we can control, and pulling out $1 billion worth of costs [and] continuing to improve the network and the product quality for our customers is absolutely what we can control,” Mr Evans said at the CAPA Australia Pacific Aviation Summit."
Obviously this is a misprint. What he obviously said was
" ... continuing to dismantle and reduce the network and decrease the product quality for our customers is absolutely what we can control,”
He expects people will believe this crap. That they can rip 1 billon dollars from international and increase the network and improve quality for pax. CASA needs to get those fancy drug testing kits up to the campus in coward street. What has he been smokin? Or in all likelyhood Olivia drafted that little gem.
BTW hasn't she be quiet lately? What gives?
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The media buid up for the 28th has started..
by mrbigbird.. continuing to dismantle and reduce the network and decrease the product quality for our customers is absolutely what we can control,”
The smh story is a rehash of the rehashed story from the AFR on Saturday.. same writer, Jamie Freed.. to her credit, she is getting in early and I sense she is a wake up to them..
“For us, it’s about controlling what we can control, and pulling out $1 billion worth of costs [and] continuing to improve the network and the product quality for our customers is absolutely what we can control,” Mr Evans said.
Qantas, including Jetstar, has a total controllable annual cost base of $11.6 billion, so the planned cuts will hit the international division disproportionately. Qantas plan sparks cuts concerns
Qantas, including Jetstar, has a total controllable annual cost base of $11.6 billion, so the planned cuts will hit the international division disproportionately. Qantas plan sparks cuts concerns
“For us, it’s about controlling what we can control, and pulling out $1 billion worth of costs [and] continuing to improve the network and the product quality for our customers is absolutely what we can control,” Mr Evans said at the CAPA Australia Pacific Aviation Summit.
Qantas, including Jetstar, has a total controllable annual cost base of $11.6 billion, so the planned cuts will hit the international division disproportionately.
Qantas, including Jetstar, has a total controllable annual cost base of $11.6 billion, so the planned cuts will hit the international division disproportionately.
It's only when you expand it all out that the true extent of the destruction of share holder value becomes obscenely obvious.
2,196,330,250 shares issued as of today.
Market cap today at $1.28
= $2,811,302,720
Joyce appointed Nov 28 2008
Market cap on that day at $2.23
= $4,897,816,457.5
Which means that Joyce has been responsible for a loss of share holder value that equates to $2,086,513,740. And that's before the 1 billion or so dip in profit is announced. The board must be very happy with him because they have paid him $22,000,000 to achieve that 2 billion dollar loss. Which is the only thing he has achieved during his 5 year (plus 1) plan.
But it gets worse.
Clifford was appointed 14 Nov 2007
Market cap on that day at $5.09
= $11,179,320,972.50 which
equates to a loss of share holder value of:
$8,368,018,25
I'm simply staggered and appalled to see these losses quantified in black and white.
There is much talk that Joyce will out soon. But as you see he is only a wee apprentice to the 8 Billion Dollar Chairman.
2,196,330,250 shares issued as of today.
Market cap today at $1.28
= $2,811,302,720
Joyce appointed Nov 28 2008
Market cap on that day at $2.23
= $4,897,816,457.5
Which means that Joyce has been responsible for a loss of share holder value that equates to $2,086,513,740. And that's before the 1 billion or so dip in profit is announced. The board must be very happy with him because they have paid him $22,000,000 to achieve that 2 billion dollar loss. Which is the only thing he has achieved during his 5 year (plus 1) plan.
But it gets worse.
Clifford was appointed 14 Nov 2007
Market cap on that day at $5.09
= $11,179,320,972.50 which
equates to a loss of share holder value of:
$8,368,018,25
I'm simply staggered and appalled to see these losses quantified in black and white.
There is much talk that Joyce will out soon. But as you see he is only a wee apprentice to the 8 Billion Dollar Chairman.
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Well no matter what happens next Thursday, the empire at the top and the board won't change. None of them lost their jobs, everyone below them did.
None if them take responsibility, they blame everyone else for their mistakes, no accountability. By the way, what has Hickey done since becoming head of INTL? Someone answer that
They say employee morale is low right now, I am sure it will only get worse.
None if them take responsibility, they blame everyone else for their mistakes, no accountability. By the way, what has Hickey done since becoming head of INTL? Someone answer that
They say employee morale is low right now, I am sure it will only get worse.
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Qantas Airways plans to cut the controllable cost base of its international business by $1 billion, or one third,
Controllable costs include things like changing international routes (such as cutting flights to New Zealand in non-peak periods) and fleet changes (such as retiring some of its fuel-guzzling 747s) but do not include fuel, depreciation or operating leases, Fairfax Media reports.
Chief financial officer Gareth Evans told the CAPA Australia Pacific Aviation Summit recently: "For us, it’s about controlling what we can control, and pulling out $1 billion worth of costs [and] continuing to improve the network and the product quality for our customers is absolutely what we can control."
Qantas has already said it is targeting about $2 billion in cost savings overall — now it can be reported about half of these savings will come from the airline's international business.
Analysts say more job cuts can be expected.
"They will probably announce they will cut another 2000 or 3000 [jobs] on top of the 5000 already announced," one told Fairfax.
Qantas is expected to report a pre-tax underlying loss of $750 million this financial year.
Controllable costs include things like changing international routes (such as cutting flights to New Zealand in non-peak periods) and fleet changes (such as retiring some of its fuel-guzzling 747s) but do not include fuel, depreciation or operating leases, Fairfax Media reports.
Chief financial officer Gareth Evans told the CAPA Australia Pacific Aviation Summit recently: "For us, it’s about controlling what we can control, and pulling out $1 billion worth of costs [and] continuing to improve the network and the product quality for our customers is absolutely what we can control."
Qantas has already said it is targeting about $2 billion in cost savings overall — now it can be reported about half of these savings will come from the airline's international business.
Analysts say more job cuts can be expected.
"They will probably announce they will cut another 2000 or 3000 [jobs] on top of the 5000 already announced," one told Fairfax.
Qantas is expected to report a pre-tax underlying loss of $750 million this financial year.
It's a tragedy that people have been going on in this forum and other threads for years as to what has/is/will go wrong with these people in charge.
Unfortunately nothing will change.
Remember these people don't give a flying about you, your career, or your family. The executive mantra is simple, they believe in one thing only...themselves and should anyone suggest their failings, they will be removed from qantas quick smart. Tow the line or get the boot.
This week I'm predicting the following lines to be reiterated ad nauseam.....
Qantas is facing tough trading conditions, weak australian dollar, strong australian dollar, volatility in the fuel price, higher fuel prices, tough decisions have to be made, cost cutting initiatives, turning the business around, legacy conditions,
lower cost competitors, less maintenance, safety is our number one priority, difficult decisions, jetstar promising to deliver, improving engagement, the unions ...blah blah blah. Please add as you deem fit.
And guess what......Nothing will change.
Unfortunately nothing will change.
Remember these people don't give a flying about you, your career, or your family. The executive mantra is simple, they believe in one thing only...themselves and should anyone suggest their failings, they will be removed from qantas quick smart. Tow the line or get the boot.
This week I'm predicting the following lines to be reiterated ad nauseam.....
Qantas is facing tough trading conditions, weak australian dollar, strong australian dollar, volatility in the fuel price, higher fuel prices, tough decisions have to be made, cost cutting initiatives, turning the business around, legacy conditions,
lower cost competitors, less maintenance, safety is our number one priority, difficult decisions, jetstar promising to deliver, improving engagement, the unions ...blah blah blah. Please add as you deem fit.
And guess what......Nothing will change.
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HnH, you got it.
You think we'd learn from previous experiences, each announcement is essentially the same. We wanted Dixon to go, now we want Joyce to go.
It won't matter, they'll do their job how they want to do it, not how we want/expect it to be done.
If you are really passionate about it, let them know personally. Phone, mail, email, visit. At least you tried, otherwise, try to save some angst & get on with life.
You think we'd learn from previous experiences, each announcement is essentially the same. We wanted Dixon to go, now we want Joyce to go.
It won't matter, they'll do their job how they want to do it, not how we want/expect it to be done.
If you are really passionate about it, let them know personally. Phone, mail, email, visit. At least you tried, otherwise, try to save some angst & get on with life.
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HnH
Might I add.
What a wonderful job the Executive Team have done despite extremely difficult trading conditions.
&
Despite Regulatory delays & obstacle/opposition to the Jetstar Asian franchise expansion.
MC.
Might I add.
What a wonderful job the Executive Team have done despite extremely difficult trading conditions.
&
Despite Regulatory delays & obstacle/opposition to the Jetstar Asian franchise expansion.
MC.
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The Townsville refueller reports that grief counsellors have been retained for the ensuing period after 28/08.
The only two people who should be feeling a sense of loss after 28 August are the CEO and chair.
When - oh, when - will the institutional shareholders WAKE UP!??
Thread Starter
Could there be another industry where you could perform so badly and yet make so much money?
Love to know what the guys at Franklin Templeton are thinking right now.
It's insane unless it is a breakup deal.
Love to know what the guys at Franklin Templeton are thinking right now.
It's insane unless it is a breakup deal.
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CAPA Centre for Aviation executive chairman Peter Harbison said he would expect Qantas to cut international routes where the net revenue is lowest or negative.
“You’d have to think Singapore is rocky at best, with so much capacity still in there, and [Perth-Singapore] has already come off,” he said. “South Africa, without the South African Airways partnership [which dissolved this year] is also questionable.”
Mr Harbison said it was also possible Qantas could ask partner American Airlines to offer some services to Australia in a move that would allow the Australian carrier to retire some of its aircraft earlier.
Saj Ahmad, chief analyst of London-based StrategicAero Research, said Qantas should not have abandoned its firm orders for Boeing 787s as part of an earlier cost cutting drive.
Qantas cancelled its firm order for 35 787-9 aircraft in August 2012 and instead now has 50 options and purchase rights for 787-9s. It had expected to receive 17 of the long range, fuel efficient, aircraft by June 2016 before the order was restructured.
“You’d have to think Singapore is rocky at best, with so much capacity still in there, and [Perth-Singapore] has already come off,” he said. “South Africa, without the South African Airways partnership [which dissolved this year] is also questionable.”
Mr Harbison said it was also possible Qantas could ask partner American Airlines to offer some services to Australia in a move that would allow the Australian carrier to retire some of its aircraft earlier.
Saj Ahmad, chief analyst of London-based StrategicAero Research, said Qantas should not have abandoned its firm orders for Boeing 787s as part of an earlier cost cutting drive.
Qantas cancelled its firm order for 35 787-9 aircraft in August 2012 and instead now has 50 options and purchase rights for 787-9s. It had expected to receive 17 of the long range, fuel efficient, aircraft by June 2016 before the order was restructured.
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Saj Ahmad, chief analyst of London-based StrategicAero Research, said Qantas should not have abandoned its firm orders for Boeing 787s as part of an earlier cost cutting drive.
To cost cut by cutting investment in aircraft that have been designed to deeply cut the cost per ASK on the most strategic routes in the network, that's just outright dumb. That kind of cost cutting might positively impact the balance sheet temporarily but has a far deeper and enduring negative impact on the P & L into the future.
As ye sow, so shall ye reap. And hopefully the reaper is coming for Dumb & Dumber very soon.
short flights long nights
As I posted months ago...Ask Pan Am about shrinking to profits, it went really well for them.
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Agree VH-Cheerup.
But we have an airline run by accountants, not people who know how to run an airline.
Letting go of the 787 options will end up being one of the dumbest decisions, right up there with not ordering the 777
But we have an airline run by accountants, not people who know how to run an airline.
Letting go of the 787 options will end up being one of the dumbest decisions, right up there with not ordering the 777
Letting go of the 787 options will end up being one of the dumbest decisions, right up there with not ordering the 777
Nunc est bibendum
The 787s will come but if they announce them now, they won't be able to get rid of all the engineers they want to get rid of. They'll announce them only when they don't have the critical mass of engineers or the time frame to maintain them. Then watch them start to get rid of A330s until they no longer have critical mass of those too.
Mr Harbison,
Expect Qantas to cut routes where the revenue is low or negative? Jetstar International has been negative for years including 2006 when they handed over 4 A330s that were earning 35% of the Qantas domestic profit to Jetstar who charges $80 to go to Bali. Brilliant!
Expect Qantas to cut routes where the revenue is low or negative? Jetstar International has been negative for years including 2006 when they handed over 4 A330s that were earning 35% of the Qantas domestic profit to Jetstar who charges $80 to go to Bali. Brilliant!