MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
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Cheap flight issue, seemingly less to do with leap second, and more to do with the rolling in of fuel surcharges to base fares on 1 July.
Seemingly fuel surchages were removed, before the base fares were updated, at least when booked via some US booking agents (where it was still 30 June).
Seemingly fuel surchages were removed, before the base fares were updated, at least when booked via some US booking agents (where it was still 30 June).
My 3 yr old daughter couldn't even get a meal on our Singapore - Brisbane sector, and that was after 3 requests
Genuine question by the way.....
standard unit,
I booked the flight approximately 3 montghs prior.
I have no idea whether it was loaded?
I asked the cain crew 3 times each time they said won't be long and of course it never arrived.
My impression was they didn't give a F%%#.
Neither did my daughter, and neither do I now, as I no longer travel QF international. I don't understand why people do. Its generally more expensive and lesser quality than the opposition such as Singapore Emirattes etc and I still get to use my FF points. (on Emirattes)
I booked the flight approximately 3 montghs prior.
I have no idea whether it was loaded?
I asked the cain crew 3 times each time they said won't be long and of course it never arrived.
My impression was they didn't give a F%%#.
Neither did my daughter, and neither do I now, as I no longer travel QF international. I don't understand why people do. Its generally more expensive and lesser quality than the opposition such as Singapore Emirattes etc and I still get to use my FF points. (on Emirattes)
standard unit,
I booked the flight approximately 3 montghs prior.
I have no idea whether it was loaded?
I asked the cain crew 3 times each time they said won't be long and of course it never arrived.
My impression was they didn't give a F%%#.
Neither did my daughter, and neither do I now, as I no longer travel QF international. I don't understand why people do. Its generally more expensive and lesser quality than the opposition such as Singapore Emirattes etc and I still get to use my FF points. (on Emirattes)
I booked the flight approximately 3 montghs prior.
I have no idea whether it was loaded?
I asked the cain crew 3 times each time they said won't be long and of course it never arrived.
My impression was they didn't give a F%%#.
Neither did my daughter, and neither do I now, as I no longer travel QF international. I don't understand why people do. Its generally more expensive and lesser quality than the opposition such as Singapore Emirattes etc and I still get to use my FF points. (on Emirattes)
Having said that, please remember airlines are EXTREMELY complex things and effectively running a restaurant at 35,000' with only pre loaded equipment and supplies is probably one of the most difficult things companies could do. Alan Joyce and Clifford et al have only the vaguest understanding of what goes on so it isn't immediately obvious, but what surprises me is how well the job 'generally' gets done day after day and night after night across the planet with people from totally different cultures.
What you have described obviously was a Qantas problem but it could have happened on any aircraft with any airline and any crew. No system can ever be perfect. Especially when an Irishman is involved.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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No system can ever be perfect. Especially when an Irishman is involved
Mass applause for a generally homophobic 'joke' and outright xenophobia all on one page.
Nothing to do with sexuality in this case. Although I think it was Sunfish who commented that gays 'tended' to be worse managers because they 'tended' to surround themselves with yes-men/women and I actually think (whether it was Sunfish or not) that whoever said it did have a valid point - and not just at Qantas. But again, young Elaine has many, many failings, being gay (as well as short and ugly and a few other things come to think of it - those teeth!! can't he afford a good dentist?) are not ones that actually bother me. His incompetence however, does.
My comment about being Irish was based on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_jokes
My comment about being Irish was based on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_jokes
Join Date: Oct 2002
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big words are good, aren't they?
Good god in heaven! Or Brian, if you have a Pythonesque view of creation.
A tongue in cheek reference to an age old source of mirth is turned into something totally out of proportion.
Irish jokes (whether or not the wiki historical reference offends) are NOT illegal. Nor, sadly is shutting down an entire airline. A sick Irish joke if ever there was one!
Meanwhile.... Over at Jet* Japan (or anywhere else) ....
A tongue in cheek reference to an age old source of mirth is turned into something totally out of proportion.
Irish jokes (whether or not the wiki historical reference offends) are NOT illegal. Nor, sadly is shutting down an entire airline. A sick Irish joke if ever there was one!
Meanwhile.... Over at Jet* Japan (or anywhere else) ....
Joyce is a disgrace and couldn't manage to set a mouse trap. Mismanagement certainly leads to 'issues' with fed up crew and I'm sure you your grievance is legitimate.
Having said that, please remember airlines are EXTREMELY complex things and effectively running a restaurant at 35,000' with only pre loaded equipment and supplies is probably one of the most difficult things companies could do. Alan Joyce and Clifford et al have only the vaguest understanding of what goes on so it isn't immediately obvious, but what surprises me is how well the job 'generally' gets done day after day and night after night across the planet with people from totally different cultures.
Having said that, please remember airlines are EXTREMELY complex things and effectively running a restaurant at 35,000' with only pre loaded equipment and supplies is probably one of the most difficult things companies could do. Alan Joyce and Clifford et al have only the vaguest understanding of what goes on so it isn't immediately obvious, but what surprises me is how well the job 'generally' gets done day after day and night after night across the planet with people from totally different cultures.
I guess what I am aluding too is that Joyce and co have driven the quality down to the point where staff are not happy, that reflects on service standards and the brand to the point customers like myself see the results. I cannot justify, even though I would like to, paying a higher price and receiving a lesser service by flying with Qantas. I havent made that decision based on this particular flight, I made it over a long period of time and experince with other airlines. Qantas doesn't really rate for price or service at the moment its like Jetstar with a Kangaroo on the tail and I won't travel with Jetstar. (maybe thats his plan?)
With regards to the resetaurant, the CC involved had plenty of options. If there were no childrens meals available, let me know. Maybe offer an adults meals if they had 1 extra and im sure they would have, a snack of some sort or heavan forbid an apology what ever. To simply after the third time to say its on its way and then lay low is not excusable on an aircraft, in a restaurant or at McDonalds.
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On Mother's Day 2012 I attended a training day all cabin crew were sent to . The morning consisted of a pretty skinny blonde manager telling us how the media twist things - the weekend Australian supplement the day prior even had a full front page picture of the leader with the caption "Union Busting Thug or Fearless Corporate Hero" . We were reminded how amazing QF is. The afternoon consisted of a guy who was outsourced who spent a couple of hours teaching us how to deal with passenger s concerns without apologizing - under no circumstances should we say "sorry" . We were broken into small groups and given 3 scenarios to handle without using those Magic little words . I was already highly stressed after raising lots of safety , ohs, and service issues and being ignored, plus the grounding had really affected me. And seniority was affecting me adversely (fatigue, lack of life balance, occasional bullying etc etc). I resigned the next day after 22 years . The very end of the mothers day training was an emotional rendition of a Katy Perry song (which I had till that moment really liked) while we all stood around a big glass dome lava lamp thingy . I cried on the flight back home that night, and in the car driving home, and then a fair bit more. I just knew I couldn't keep working for a company that did not give a rats about things that I believed were so important . And then I had a breakdown because I cared too much - and leaving after 22 years was like leaving a bad marriage - still very hard. As my friend the ex British submariner likes to say they sent me off to the basket weaving course.
Anyway , the culture created by management does not not encourage caring . It's crap, but it's the truth . I'm now working in a different field altogether which Is much better for my health. And I do yoga and mindfulness a lot.
Saying that there are a huge amount of wonderful crew who do an amazing job under often challenging circumstances . There are also some who don't give a rats , why should they , management don't. Plus it can be bad for their health.
Anyway , the culture created by management does not not encourage caring . It's crap, but it's the truth . I'm now working in a different field altogether which Is much better for my health. And I do yoga and mindfulness a lot.
Saying that there are a huge amount of wonderful crew who do an amazing job under often challenging circumstances . There are also some who don't give a rats , why should they , management don't. Plus it can be bad for their health.
Last edited by LHLisa; 18th Jul 2015 at 21:24. Reason: Legal liability
Nothing a good Spirit Course can't fix.... And sadly that is the solution most 'managers' at QF and others have. If you don't have a clue what skydrol is or how those great big aircraft get off the ground then 'Spirit Courses - All Around' becomes the catch cry...
I really do want people to understand that every airline has 'bad' and 'good' crew. Even 'good' crews on a bad day can be bad - or perceived as such. And never forget spending decades smiling at hundreds of people when you possibly haven't slept properly for 48+ hours, your body clock is at 0300 and you are so tired you feel like throwing up can make even the smallest task very, very challenging. Spend 10+ years in Long Haul and you change. I took a break from flying and it took me 3 years to stop sleeping in 4 hour chunks. It still happens from time to time, but I only realised how disruptive that was to me AFTER I experienced 'normal' sleep for a month. If you hit your head on a brick wall long enough, you do forget why your head hurts. These are things you just can't explain to people who have never experienced it. Sitting as a pax in a cabin, even if you flew SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD 5-6 times every 8 weeks or so for a year wouldn't come close to the feeling. And when I started one of the girls had accumulated 41 back to back BKK-LHR's IN A ROW, with generally 5 days off between each one!! I am sure there were people out there with more, she was just one I knew and had happened to count them up.
And to QF drivers, (excuse the thread drift) all this is why I think DF's EBA post regarding night credits on Qrewroom should be read very carefully. He's right, messing with night credits is messing with the DNA of the agreement and it's that intangible long term tiredness that (I would all but guarantee) at least contributed to RENURRP's issue. Qantas Long Haul is the longest haul in the world so Qantas LH crew do not have a comparison. This needs to be recognised.
A friend of mine going short haul for the first time summarised it like this. 'You are never really tired when you go to work, it's almost impossible to f^&*K up!'. It's a different tiredness to the tiredness most people understand. And 'managers' have not the faintest clue about it - for them a long day is 0800-1800 in the same time zone as yesterday with no life at stake and (all too frequently) a multi million dollar remuneration package to justify their 'hard work'..... To quote Capt Darling 'Life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps is pretty tough (compared to life at the Front)!'
I really do want people to understand that every airline has 'bad' and 'good' crew. Even 'good' crews on a bad day can be bad - or perceived as such. And never forget spending decades smiling at hundreds of people when you possibly haven't slept properly for 48+ hours, your body clock is at 0300 and you are so tired you feel like throwing up can make even the smallest task very, very challenging. Spend 10+ years in Long Haul and you change. I took a break from flying and it took me 3 years to stop sleeping in 4 hour chunks. It still happens from time to time, but I only realised how disruptive that was to me AFTER I experienced 'normal' sleep for a month. If you hit your head on a brick wall long enough, you do forget why your head hurts. These are things you just can't explain to people who have never experienced it. Sitting as a pax in a cabin, even if you flew SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD 5-6 times every 8 weeks or so for a year wouldn't come close to the feeling. And when I started one of the girls had accumulated 41 back to back BKK-LHR's IN A ROW, with generally 5 days off between each one!! I am sure there were people out there with more, she was just one I knew and had happened to count them up.
And to QF drivers, (excuse the thread drift) all this is why I think DF's EBA post regarding night credits on Qrewroom should be read very carefully. He's right, messing with night credits is messing with the DNA of the agreement and it's that intangible long term tiredness that (I would all but guarantee) at least contributed to RENURRP's issue. Qantas Long Haul is the longest haul in the world so Qantas LH crew do not have a comparison. This needs to be recognised.
A friend of mine going short haul for the first time summarised it like this. 'You are never really tired when you go to work, it's almost impossible to f^&*K up!'. It's a different tiredness to the tiredness most people understand. And 'managers' have not the faintest clue about it - for them a long day is 0800-1800 in the same time zone as yesterday with no life at stake and (all too frequently) a multi million dollar remuneration package to justify their 'hard work'..... To quote Capt Darling 'Life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps is pretty tough (compared to life at the Front)!'
Last edited by V-Jet; 18th Jul 2015 at 23:56.
A friend of mine going short haul for the first time summarised it like this. 'You are never really tired when you go to work, it's almost impossible to f^&*K up!'
Your friends statement regarding fatigue issues in SH is hubris in the extreme.
Picture multiple consecutive 04:45 sign on, 4 sector days in 4 seperate aircraft with 40 minute turnarounds, 12 hour two crew duty limits (extendable to 14) all whilst having min rest in salubrious accomodations like "The Vibe Hotel" in Kings Cross.
And it was said to a) highlight the differences and b) say how good it was in comparison and c) was after a few sectors, not years. I wouldn't take it too seriously - I'm quite confident in saying it's just as easy to f&^*k up in short haul as it is in long haul
My comments on sleeping are 100% accurate though. And there is nothing like that horrid, wanting to throw up 4am body clock feeling staring into the sun when you haven't slept properly in 24 hours. I don't think the windows of a 76 or 73 make all that much difference to a 74's. All (and everything) is awful in that 'mode'. And why is it that you always get that 'late' change in weather, sick pax or mysteriously trapped fuel when you seem to feel worst??
http://www.idea2dezign.net/wp-conten...ne-Cockpit.jpg
and only 7+ hours to go
Paper isn't thick enough!! Makes my stomach turn........
My comments on sleeping are 100% accurate though. And there is nothing like that horrid, wanting to throw up 4am body clock feeling staring into the sun when you haven't slept properly in 24 hours. I don't think the windows of a 76 or 73 make all that much difference to a 74's. All (and everything) is awful in that 'mode'. And why is it that you always get that 'late' change in weather, sick pax or mysteriously trapped fuel when you seem to feel worst??
http://www.idea2dezign.net/wp-conten...ne-Cockpit.jpg
and only 7+ hours to go
Paper isn't thick enough!! Makes my stomach turn........
Nunc est bibendum
No night credits on most LHR trips. No ought credits on JFK patterns.
Every 5 day A380 pattern I've done is a ****e load easier than the average 5 day domestic flying pattern. Every 10 day on/ 6-7 days off A380 pattern is easier than my 5 on, 2 off, 5 on, 3 off 767 pattern. Then again, I make an effort to look after myself when overseas and drink a LOT less in the bar than many of my compatriots.
When you compare the proposed 787 patterns and its planning divisor with the current patterns and divisor it turns up about 1-2 days less off per BP. 5-10 days per annum. Still a lot more days off than 767 flying.
Lack of night credits is not the massive bogey man it's made out to be. The fact that night credits are retained for 2 and 3 man tours of duty more accurately reflects the arduous nature of the tours of duty.
Every 5 day A380 pattern I've done is a ****e load easier than the average 5 day domestic flying pattern. Every 10 day on/ 6-7 days off A380 pattern is easier than my 5 on, 2 off, 5 on, 3 off 767 pattern. Then again, I make an effort to look after myself when overseas and drink a LOT less in the bar than many of my compatriots.
When you compare the proposed 787 patterns and its planning divisor with the current patterns and divisor it turns up about 1-2 days less off per BP. 5-10 days per annum. Still a lot more days off than 767 flying.
Lack of night credits is not the massive bogey man it's made out to be. The fact that night credits are retained for 2 and 3 man tours of duty more accurately reflects the arduous nature of the tours of duty.
I would point out that a planning divisor and the actual divisor are two very different things. I would suggest that although the planning divisor is 155 the actual divisor will be closer to 175 hours and that is stick hours. Currently with night credits a 175 hour divisor equates to about 132 stick hours. Thats an extra 43 stick hours per bid period or approx two additional Narita trips.