MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
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Ngineer is right “When an axe is held above your neck for this amount of time it plays on your mind at work, driving home, at the dinner table, when your family is around, and when you go to bed at night. It disturbs your sleep, and it is usually the first thing on your mind when you wake up again. At work is just a small part of it.”.
Agree 100% with everything- and it doesn’t help when it is one of the main news stories now everyday so everyone knows what is happening. Being at work and focusing on what you need to do in that time is only part of it, the time away from work is sometimes worse because you can’t concentrate on anything else or focus on something you would normally like (such as watching TV). They talk about managing fatigue in this company – it sure isn’t happening now if most people can’t sleep because they are thinking about their futures.
Agree 100% with everything- and it doesn’t help when it is one of the main news stories now everyday so everyone knows what is happening. Being at work and focusing on what you need to do in that time is only part of it, the time away from work is sometimes worse because you can’t concentrate on anything else or focus on something you would normally like (such as watching TV). They talk about managing fatigue in this company – it sure isn’t happening now if most people can’t sleep because they are thinking about their futures.
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BB.
Your right it will be Singapore/Etihad/Branson versus Qantas/Emirates and the dwarf.
Ill put my money on Singapore/Etihad/Branson and in 12 months QF will have the hand out again.................
Your right it will be Singapore/Etihad/Branson versus Qantas/Emirates and the dwarf.
Ill put my money on Singapore/Etihad/Branson and in 12 months QF will have the hand out again.................
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"pilots requiring 3 vegetables with their meals"
This is consistent with Rat strategy about making pilots the face of the war and while seemingly innocuous/laughable it keeps driving the same message.
Do not understand why some union/association rep doesn't take this guy head on and call him on almost everything he says.
This is consistent with Rat strategy about making pilots the face of the war and while seemingly innocuous/laughable it keeps driving the same message.
Do not understand why some union/association rep doesn't take this guy head on and call him on almost everything he says.
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Peuce, what if the "investors" are the usual names, Singleton, Packer, Dixon, et al, where to then? How do a bunch of Australian Carpetbaggers, convince a Australian Govt. that to break up QF, selling up all its assets, is for the "best". These blokes have been far to quiet, but they will be hovering somewhere. And then the dream of both Dixon and Joyce will be realised, their "Baby" will become the National Carrier. No, folks, calm down, QF has not really gone, it has simply changed its name, it is still Australian, it was born here, (Not like Virgin, once a pom, always a pom) we have found a way, to run the countries National Carrier, at half the cost, all we have to do is remove the pink out of the cabin crew uniform, and Wallah! QANSTAR! Prepare to contact your bank, about changing the amount of your mortgage paid each week, it might have to less. This, is of course, only a possibility, one of many, tomorrow we will know what is going to happen, I am out of it, but have three kids flying, so resent the way this has been handled, and allowing all of you, be either tech, or engineering, to be done, ever so slowly. It shows the true mark of the man, and his board.
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I might repeating myself but I say it again:
THE FISH STARTS STINKING FROM THE HEAD! and the stink of this
AJ is unbearable. I only stay a loyal customer of QF because of the people who work there! You guys at the front line, pilots, flight attendants, ground staff, engineers etc. do a fantastic job. You are the reason while people fly with Qantas. Passengers know they are safe and welcome on a Qantas plane.
Feel sorry for all QF employees who have to take this from an incompetent and arrogant senior management.
THE FISH STARTS STINKING FROM THE HEAD! and the stink of this
AJ is unbearable. I only stay a loyal customer of QF because of the people who work there! You guys at the front line, pilots, flight attendants, ground staff, engineers etc. do a fantastic job. You are the reason while people fly with Qantas. Passengers know they are safe and welcome on a Qantas plane.Feel sorry for all QF employees who have to take this
from an incompetent and arrogant senior management.
Anyone emailed the minister? The press? Your local member? All of the above? It feels good to vent here with mates, but it doesn't go beyond here, unless you make it. Tomorrow can't be prevented now, but the shock waves need to be felt by all, and the more of us get off our behinds and clog up the appropriate inboxes, the more likely they will.
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gordon
I'm not saying don't do it as it is a very good idea as the more correspondence they get, eventually they will have to take notice. My only caveat is that I have, on several occasions, emailed the PM, the Minister, the Opposition and my local member and all I ever get back is a computer-generated email and NEVER an actual response. The bastards don't care.
However, as I said, I was only one person - if enough people do so they will be forced to sit up and take notice. All the very best.
I'm not saying don't do it as it is a very good idea as the more correspondence they get, eventually they will have to take notice. My only caveat is that I have, on several occasions, emailed the PM, the Minister, the Opposition and my local member and all I ever get back is a computer-generated email and NEVER an actual response. The bastards don't care.
However, as I said, I was only one person - if enough people do so they will be forced to sit up and take notice. All the very best.
I have regularly spoken to the press. I believe everyone should and hang the cost - the airline is being killed anyway. Generally (depending on my mood with the stupid things said) the result has been very good. I find it hard to argue with idiots who point blank say 'union wages are the problem', but have honed my answer to the 'well, of my course of 8, 4 are actually earning more flying overseas and I have lost count of the number of fantastic Australian Engineers that greet aircraft in any number of overseas ports - all discarded by Qantas'. Once I got 'But thats just not true!' - I could only respond 'You're a journalist, I have spent 25 years of my life flying heavy jets around the world, could it possibly be I might know a bit more about it'.
Guerrilla media techniques are the only way to get a voice heard - part of why I started posting here, anyone can read it.
If there is no other story to print, then AJ's word is the only one heard.
Guerrilla media techniques are the only way to get a voice heard - part of why I started posting here, anyone can read it.
If there is no other story to print, then AJ's word is the only one heard.
Face to face, even better. I still think a few hundred (maybe more) emails can not be ignored, especially when you C.C the other parties in on it. The pressure of knowing you may be the only one not taking this seriously usually forces one to do something.
If you do email these parties, post your email here, knowing you are not alone makes you braver. And invite a friend to do the same, if 6000 jobs do go and they get even half that many emails, it will force a response and expose these fools.
If you do email these parties, post your email here, knowing you are not alone makes you braver. And invite a friend to do the same, if 6000 jobs do go and they get even half that many emails, it will force a response and expose these fools.
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Just pray that a preoccupied and very worried pilot or engineer doesn't make a serious mistake. Alan may not be happy, but his staff had better be.
Prayer: A petition that the laws of nature be suspended in favor of the petitioner; himself confessedly unworthy.
Sorry Sunfish, gonna have to go with Ambrose on this one. I'm sure the QF FRMS can offer up a better suggestion on how to avoid fatigue induced mistakes....
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Is there a safety case to ground Qantas pending job cuts?
CASA FOI documents relating to Qantas shutdown 2011 - includes a risk assessment - makes for interesting reading. Have Qantas performed a similar risk assessment for the present circumstances?
Is there a safety case to ground Qantas pending job cuts?
Ben Sandilands | Feb 26, 2014 10:20AM | EMAIL | PRINT
CASA accepted a need to ground Qantas on safety grounds at the request of management in 2011 when it stranded its customers all around the world to brow beat the Labor government and Fair Work Australia. What is it doing about the current threats to fire thousands of staff?
Back in 2011, when Qantas CEO Alan Joyce grounded the airline and stranded 70,000 passengers and cost shareholders $198 million in a gross PR stunt, it made a detailed safety case which CASA accepted that the grounding was justified because of its psychological impact on pilots and staff.
That meant that Qantas did not bring its jets home from overseas ports during the shut down, but put all of its aircraft on the ground at the same time.
Today independent SA Senator Nick Xenophon has written to CASA asking why the unprecedented anxiety and turmoil in Qantas employees in advance of tomorrow’s promised massive job cutbacks ought not require CASA to again ground Qantas because of the ‘human factors’ involved.
Xenophon’s call follows this sharp criticism of Alan Joyce by The Australian’s business columnist John Durie.
This is how Xenophon outlines his concerns in the context of the 2011 grounding stunt in a letter to the outgoing Director of Aviation Safety at CASA, John McCormick:
I refer to your evidence provided to the Senate Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee inquiry on 24 November 2011, regarding the circumstances detailed by Qantas management of a safety case deemed sufficient by CASA to agree to a cessation of flying operations by Qantas domestic and international fleets. I note that the decision was supported by CASA and acceptance of the risks outlined by management was deemed sufficient to facilitate a previously unprecedented event in the Australian airline industry.
I note that the CEO of Qantas, Mr Alan Joyce, stated in his evidence to that inquiry on 4 November 2011:
I note human factors were considered by CASA in the context of the grounding in 2011.
Is CASA of the view that the ‘distraction’ being experienced by safety critical employees in the context of current speculation of mass job losses is of a lesser magnitude than that which occurred in October 2011?
I note that the decision to ground the domestic Qantas fleet in 2011 affected employees not involved in any industrial action. They presumably would not have had reasonable grounds to be distracted by fear of a lockout. In the current circumstance, management has repeatedly stated, ‘all options are on the table’ and the cuts will be greater in proportion to those at American Airlines under Chapter 11. Therefore the current impact on safety critical employees could reasonably be expected to be far greater in terms of distraction than in 2011.
Could you please advise how CASA is presently satisfying itself that Qantas’ is continuing to operate according to Australian safety regulations.
Has CASA obtained from Qantas an ongoing basis an assessment of risks to the safe operation of aircraft as speculation continues to mount as to the magnitude of job losses to impact safety critical employees?
It is clear to me that from a human factors perspective, job losses of this reported magnitude will have impacts far beyond any consequences of an industrial dispute. Given the wide ranging cuts mooted by management, is CASA concerned that there will be continued distraction until all matters pertaining to employment are resolved?
As such, what does CASA plan to do in order to ensure that the public remains confident that Qantas will continue to provide acceptably safe flight operations? This premise was the basis of CASA’s public support of the grounding of Qantas domestic and International on 29 October 2011.
Given I have been contacted directly by concerned employees of Qantas, I will be releasing this letter to the public. I look forward to your urgent response.
Ben Sandilands | Feb 26, 2014 10:20AM | EMAIL | PRINT
CASA accepted a need to ground Qantas on safety grounds at the request of management in 2011 when it stranded its customers all around the world to brow beat the Labor government and Fair Work Australia. What is it doing about the current threats to fire thousands of staff?
Back in 2011, when Qantas CEO Alan Joyce grounded the airline and stranded 70,000 passengers and cost shareholders $198 million in a gross PR stunt, it made a detailed safety case which CASA accepted that the grounding was justified because of its psychological impact on pilots and staff.
That meant that Qantas did not bring its jets home from overseas ports during the shut down, but put all of its aircraft on the ground at the same time.
Today independent SA Senator Nick Xenophon has written to CASA asking why the unprecedented anxiety and turmoil in Qantas employees in advance of tomorrow’s promised massive job cutbacks ought not require CASA to again ground Qantas because of the ‘human factors’ involved.
Xenophon’s call follows this sharp criticism of Alan Joyce by The Australian’s business columnist John Durie.
ALAN Joyce and his team at Qantas seem intent on trashing their brand and destroying staff morale the way they are handling the impending release of the company’s latest financial numbers on Thursday.
The extraordinary reliance on megaphone diplomacy, open crawling to the government for help and deliberately fanning job-cut rumours ranks as some of the most dumb-witted communications strategies this country has ever seen.
Xenophon has also written to CASA because of representations to him by deeply concerned Qantas employees.The extraordinary reliance on megaphone diplomacy, open crawling to the government for help and deliberately fanning job-cut rumours ranks as some of the most dumb-witted communications strategies this country has ever seen.
This is how Xenophon outlines his concerns in the context of the 2011 grounding stunt in a letter to the outgoing Director of Aviation Safety at CASA, John McCormick:
I refer to your evidence provided to the Senate Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee inquiry on 24 November 2011, regarding the circumstances detailed by Qantas management of a safety case deemed sufficient by CASA to agree to a cessation of flying operations by Qantas domestic and international fleets. I note that the decision was supported by CASA and acceptance of the risks outlined by management was deemed sufficient to facilitate a previously unprecedented event in the Australian airline industry.
I note that the CEO of Qantas, Mr Alan Joyce, stated in his evidence to that inquiry on 4 November 2011:
“We were telling people about the safety concerns we had. I got a note from CASA saying that they were keeping us under close monitoring, because industrial relations and the human factors issues around it becomes a concern for them. So we were explaining to everybody what was taking place and the rapid deterioration that was occurring within the Group.”
This statement followed the statement that Mr Joyce made on 28 October 2011, the day of the grounding, and referred to and quoted directly by you in your evidence to the Senate committee on 24 November 2011:“It bears repeating that the specific driver for immediate grounding of the airline was not related to the airline and fleet health metrics, but rather to the potential human factor threats that might be generated in response to the company announcement of lockout. The grounding which occurred coincident with the announcement to lockout was a conservative measure taken to mitigate a potential increase to risk.”
As speculation mounts regarding the magnitude of job losses at Qantas, I would be grateful if you could advise, as a matter of urgency, what attention has been directed by CASA to safety-related risks.I note human factors were considered by CASA in the context of the grounding in 2011.
Is CASA of the view that the ‘distraction’ being experienced by safety critical employees in the context of current speculation of mass job losses is of a lesser magnitude than that which occurred in October 2011?
I note that the decision to ground the domestic Qantas fleet in 2011 affected employees not involved in any industrial action. They presumably would not have had reasonable grounds to be distracted by fear of a lockout. In the current circumstance, management has repeatedly stated, ‘all options are on the table’ and the cuts will be greater in proportion to those at American Airlines under Chapter 11. Therefore the current impact on safety critical employees could reasonably be expected to be far greater in terms of distraction than in 2011.
Could you please advise how CASA is presently satisfying itself that Qantas’ is continuing to operate according to Australian safety regulations.
Has CASA obtained from Qantas an ongoing basis an assessment of risks to the safe operation of aircraft as speculation continues to mount as to the magnitude of job losses to impact safety critical employees?
It is clear to me that from a human factors perspective, job losses of this reported magnitude will have impacts far beyond any consequences of an industrial dispute. Given the wide ranging cuts mooted by management, is CASA concerned that there will be continued distraction until all matters pertaining to employment are resolved?
As such, what does CASA plan to do in order to ensure that the public remains confident that Qantas will continue to provide acceptably safe flight operations? This premise was the basis of CASA’s public support of the grounding of Qantas domestic and International on 29 October 2011.
Given I have been contacted directly by concerned employees of Qantas, I will be releasing this letter to the public. I look forward to your urgent response.
CASA FOI documents relating to Qantas shutdown 2011 - includes a risk assessment - makes for interesting reading. Have Qantas performed a similar risk assessment for the present circumstances?
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When there was a stray dog or cat around our homes as kids, remember our parents telling us not to touch it? Partly out of concern for fleas and worms, but more from concern that the animal would quickly become a family responsibility. The Arabs have a similar saying about camels to the effect that if you don't punish a camel for putting its nose under your tent, it will be sleeping with you. The Libs/Nats should have heeded the advice, but failed. Qantas is in the tent now. Well done Joycey! It's Australia's problem now.
Last edited by Lodown; 26th Feb 2014 at 04:04.
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Lets not just isolate Qantas here regarding Ben Sandilands article.
Alan Joyce has indicated job cuts will be across the board, my interpretation would be the entire Qantas group.
Wouldn't the impact of job losses be Qantas, Jetstar, Qantaslink and all its wholly owned subsidiaries.
Any decision by CASA affecting Qantas mainline should equally be applied to the other entities.
But we can't have anything disrupt Jetstar can we Alan?
However, the best decision in my eyes is that AJ and the AOC holders are actually unfit to hold their executive positions.
MC
Alan Joyce has indicated job cuts will be across the board, my interpretation would be the entire Qantas group.
Wouldn't the impact of job losses be Qantas, Jetstar, Qantaslink and all its wholly owned subsidiaries.
Any decision by CASA affecting Qantas mainline should equally be applied to the other entities.
But we can't have anything disrupt Jetstar can we Alan?
However, the best decision in my eyes is that AJ and the AOC holders are actually unfit to hold their executive positions.
MC
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Transcript Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee - 04/11/2011
Alan Joyce puts his case as to why there needed to be a safety shutdown
Transcript Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee - 24/11/2011
McCormick explains why CASA's response to the Qantas case.
CASA FOI documents relating to Safety shutdown [link previously posted]
Alan Joyce puts his case as to why there needed to be a safety shutdown
Transcript Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee - 24/11/2011
McCormick explains why CASA's response to the Qantas case.
CASA FOI documents relating to Safety shutdown [link previously posted]