MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

[V-Jet]

So shovel are you saying Joyce came into the job and his plan was to shrink the airline, cost thousands of families their livelihood and post enormous losses on his watch. Are you really saying that was his golden plan as CEO.

If shovel didn't mean that then I do.

He was tasked with extracting cash from Qantas. Otherwise they just earnt salaries and bonuses and as any reasonable person would understand that's just not possible. Have any of you tried to live in Sydney on $3m + living expenses + free confirmed 1st class travel + free cars + free restaurants + free partying+ bonuses. If you haven't tried, it's NOT easy!

Jetstar was the vehicle and not only did they make a dogs breakfast of that but they also made (aforementioned reason) a dogs breakfast of the company that does actually pay their outrageous benefits.

Which explains why anyone who understood how proud, hardworking and brilliant in their respective fields over 90+ years the employees were, will find it easier to understand why we are all so f&&:@/)/(/$/ed off we all are at the theft, lies and fraud that has gone on.

We do our jobs to 150% (and have done for 90+years) and these clowns earning 10-20 TIMES what we do, simply think they are mugs working for so little.

[thorn bird]

For goodness sake, why not just pay the CEO and the board whatever commissions were on offer so they can P..ss off into the sunset and let whoever has been driving this get on with it.

[Sunfish]

FFRATS, the FACTS that you so assiduously refer to are that the previous Board and CEO of Qantas tried to take the airline private and the shareholders they did this for are still on the register hiding behind nominee companies.

Alan was tasked with running Qantas to run the airline into the ground so that it could be acquired for a song by the same folk.

The FACT that he is not removed in the face of abysmal corporate performance is proof that those same major shareholders are well satisfied with his efforts on their behalf.

The announcement on 27feb will be that certain golden assets will have been sold to these same people for a song. Expect Macquarie Bank and the APA lineup to figure in the announcement.

[AEROMEDIC]

Sunfish,

There will be a lot of people keenly interested if your predictions are true and as much as we would all like to know what is in the announcements along with the financial report, the "smart money" seems to be on a split of domestic and international into separate companies and Jetstar to evolve in an interesting way.
The key point to note is that the changes about to take place are (again) not in the company's interest, the shareholders and the travelling public.

[FFRATS]

Sunfish, this is a Rumour network where many, incl. you, turn what is personal opinion or as Aeromedic puts it "predictions" out there as fact when it is far from the truth or just plain fantasy. That's fine and part of a forum but people shouldn't take offence when called for it and expect people take it on face value.

FACTS that you so assiduously refer to are that the previous Board and CEO of Qantas tried to take the airline private

I agree on this part of history and was there during it and was disgusted by the corporate greed. After that you lost me with your FACTS on Alan's job is to run Qantas into the ground for his mates to buy the crumbs.

It could just be the sharks have been circling and waiting for a feed with all the bad mistakes management have made since the failed APA deal. Was it inevitable after first 'attack'?

I guess we'll all know soon enough and you can quote the history of Qantas demise with authority and possibly have shown great foresight.

FFRATS

[bmam7]

For the record, and as a newbie here (although a long time lurker and enjoying reading the various topics) I'm not associated with the industry except as a fairly frequent flier, i.e. passenger. At my own expense too for what it's worth.

I have flown QF since the 70's, and have rarely had a bad experience on any of the numerous flights, first international and then when they became domestic too.

I am sickened to my stomach at the way the little and the rest of the board have ruined QF, to my mind. Not everyone wants to fly via DXB which, personally, I think is a hazy, glitzy, expensive dump with a few interesting tall buildings but little in the way of the culture or interest of SIN, BKK, KUL or HKG.

I can't make out if it is a deliberate ploy as some have suggested or if it is just sheer incompetence, but I fear the airline is going down the tubes. Who knows how many people will be affected by the upcoming announcement or what routes will disappear but, personally, I fear the worst as this particular board has hardly shone with its brilliant decision making.

I'm actually flying to Cairns in early May. Although it is a QF flight at present, it's just the sort of "tourist" route I see disappearing from QF and becoming JQ. Well if that happens I'll be asking for my money back, not a bloody voucher to be used at a later date, with all the add-on costs that entails.

I'm the first to admit I know nothing of the technicalities or the financial side of things, except for the various articles and blogs I read, but few of them leave me feeling good.

Co-incidentaly I read in today's Sydney Terrorgraph that the first female captain had been appointed as head of the 767 fleet. I wonder how long that job will last? Aren't QF supposed to be getting rid of the 767 asap?

[Sunfish]

The problem FFRATS is that the behaviour of QF management is so completely at variance with good management practice on so many levels that the excuse of mere incompetence is worn increasingly thin.

Five examples off the top of my head:

1. the grounding of th e airline.

2. The entire Asian adventure.

3. The malicious way the engineers have been treated over outsourcing and downsizing.

4. The continuing habit of publicising "reviews" leading to "statements" from on high on specified dates which continues to maximise fear, uncertainty and doubt among all employees.

5. The emirates tie up which will eventually lead to QF being merely an Emirates business name.


FFRATS, many of us with experience in business just shake our heads because we know what the predictable outcomes of these follies are.

[busdriver007]

All the conspiracy theories in the world cannot explain why a seemingly competent board of directors continues to make decisions that continue to place Qantas the airline and the business in a downward spiral. The Qantas Constitution states that the board are mere caretakers of the business and contains requirements of the Qantas Board but unfortunately when Qantas was privatised the provisions of the constitution were not included in the Articles of Association which means the board has a moral and not a legal responsibility to ensure the business is handed on in a viable state.
Australia has not seen this type of behaviour but I assure you it was prevalent in the United States leading up to the Global Financial Crisis. Companies such as Kohlberg Kravis and Roberts(KKR) of which Leigh Clifford in a senior director and Bain and Company(Jayne Hrdlicka has a background) benefited massively from this restructure but millions of Americans lost their jobs. One must wonder why Qantas is such a basket case and the problem except for Virgin(68% foreign owned) Australia does not have an Australian based airline that can be used in a time of crisis. Emirates has given an assurance that they will help out but I can't see that working in the Middle East or Asia representing Australians.
If people lose their jobs and the shareholders lose their shirts then both the Regulator and Government need decide what is to be done. As has happened in the United States the Assets went private and the debt went public. The only answer is for the Government to buy a "Golden Share" which they are entitled to and then review board minutes for the last 8 years and they will find some interesting reading. As Mr Hockey said his interest is "National Interest" whereas the Qantas Board for the last ten years has been all for "Personal Interest".

[V-Jet]

As Mr Hockey said his interest is "National Interest" whereas the Qantas Board for the last ten years has been all for "Personal Interest".

What he said. 100%.

[Acute Instinct]

The American Modern Story Comes to Australia.....

Nationalise the Debt/Loss (taxpayer bailouts/guarantees), Socialise the Risks (its everybody's fault, so we all need to lift), and Privatise the Profits......ah, the beauties of conservative capitalism.....


Sure, the mining and carbon taxes were poor attempts at wealth redistribution. The horse had already well and truly bolted on the mining side of things. Mr Howard let that one go through to the keeper. Subsidies that support the masses are well worth weighing up. Subsidies that funnel profits to the few at the expense of many are simply immoral.

Who picks up the tab when the game is up? The dismissed and the only people paying tax, the little guy in the middle......

[WorthWhat]

....The only answer is for the Government to buy a "Golden Share"....

Not quiet Bus Driver.

Another alternative would be for Government to buy a significant share of Qantas via an Employee Share Trust and for the Trust to repay the Government using future cash flow generated from wage freezes and productivity increases.

In effect, this would give Government twice as much bang for its buck, seeming achieve Tony Abbott's quest for productivity and would facilitate Government and the Workforce having in place Directors responsible for oversighting their interests in what strategy Qantas is pursuing, where it is investing and where it is employing.

Recall that the concept was raised with the ACTU by Dr. Shan Turnbull around the time of the APA bid and those interested should be able to find on the net details of what he proposed.

[Progress Wanchai]

It's actually the board's charter to look after personal interests (of the shareholders). Crap job they've done admittedly.

What is NOT in their charter (or the charter of any company that any of us have ever invested in), is the national interest. Who's national interest?? What does that even mean?? Just because my passport may have some cuddly edible creatures on the front cover does not mean I will make investment decisions/business decisions based on anything but sound financial sense.

How many of us have invested in property/stocks/business opportunities because of the "National Interest"? Not many I'm guessing. So why should a QF shareholder/board member be any different?

Yes, Joe Hockey probably does act in the "National Interest" (I still have no idea what that means, other than it has all the hallmarks of being either xenophobic or bogan) but THAT'S HIS JOB.

I can't imagine calls for the taxpayer being forced to become stockholders will help any current QF employees. The new board members of Tony Abbott and Eric Abetz will make Clifford look like Mother Teresa.
Be careful what you wish for.

Instead of forcing a Holden/Ford/Alcoa/SPC worker or millions like them (including VA employees) to buy QF shares, convince them. I'd love to be convinced once again that QF is a good investment. I haven't seen or heard anything coming from QF (and as someone said that's 33,000 people, not a board and senior management) to convince me.

And instead of having a potential shareholder base of 20 million, that needs to be opened up to 6 billion. The QSA is from a bygone era. If anyone thinks a shareholder is going to make decisions based on the colour of their passport you're delusional.

[Hempy]

Originally Posted by Acute Instinct

Subsidies that funnel profits to the few at the expense of many are simply immoral.

Personal political affiliation aside, that ^ is current Australian Liberal in a nutshell, sadly.

[Ixixly]

Perhaps that's the problem Progress WanChai, it's all about the profits and the shareholders, there's no legal requirement for most of them to act with any 'Moral Regard' to the people they work for or the community that supports them so they don't.

[Acute Instinct]

Progress Wanchai writes;

'What is NOT in their charter (or the charter of any company that any of us have ever invested in), is the national interest. Who's national interest?? What does that even mean??'

'Yes, Joe Hockey probably does act in the "National Interest" (I still have no idea what that means, other than it has all the hallmarks of being either xenophobic or bogan) but THAT'S HIS JOB.'

To answer all of your questions, perhaps you will attend a commemoration on the 25th of April, and be reminded, like we all should, of what national interest really is......

An eastern European friend recently commented that 'in effect' recent civil unrest in the Ukraine bears the same hallmarks of life here. 'Where everybody know your leader are off for dance with devil in pale moon light......' She also surmised that here, 'as long as beer is on fridge and food is in table, not make my problem'. She bleated on and on about stupid this, lazy that, bla, bla, bla, so I gave her something to chew on and reminded her exactly who's got the money.....

I don't know who the devil is in this instance, though you can bet one way or the other he or she likes the taste of money.......

[PammyAnderson]

so IF they did announce pilot redundancies (and i hope to god they dont!) who will they most likely target? the last on first off no matter how strict a seniority system is, seems like it can be by-passed these days through FWA. would it be 76 drivers? would all the pilot group try and negotiate all new conditions to save there colleagues? best of luck to you all. hope it doesn't happen.

[ramius315]

would all the pilot group try and negotiate all new conditions to save there colleagues?

Go back and have a look at how the previous EBAs have been negotiated. To name just a few -
380 pay introduced at 400 pay +5%.
S/H pilots introduce a B scale in order to secure a payrise/bonus for current S/H pilots.
Senior guys fighting tooth and nail to stop any form of blankline sharing.
Over 60s sticking around (and back-bidding) for one reason only - the hope of redundancies. (Not a judgement, just a statement. Each of us has to be honest, if we were in their position most would do the same.)

It is why the company has the pilot group over a barrel. Pure self interest by most. There are those who would gladly negotiate new conditions to save their colleagues but they are out-numbered, and to be honest for what? The company's mindset is to destroy T&Cs of QF staff. Any 'give' by the pilot body will not result in a long term gain to the pilot body.

[Fliegenmong]

I can't imagine calls for the taxpayer being forced to become stockholders will help any current QF employees. The new board members of Tony Abbott and Eric Abetz will make Clifford look like Mother Teresa.


Originally Posted by Acute Instinct View Post
Subsidies that funnel profits to the few at the expense of many are simply immoral.
Personal political affiliation aside, that ^ is current Australian Liberal in a nutshell, sadly.

Try saying that down in the Oz politics thread and see how long you last!!

[Ollie Onion]

The problem we have here is that no matter how much 'the workers' want to work for a company that cares, looks after it staff and protects the brand, it is very rare in this day and age to find a board / CEO who want the same.

I don't know when we started to demand increased profitability year on year with everything else sacrificed for this goal. Yes it is good to have a profitable company, but most would accept that there will be 'lean' years where investment in equipment / expansion etc can lead to reduced profits or losses. Unfortunately we are just seeing Qantas do what a lot of other big companies are guilty of. Jetstar was set up as a blocker for Virgin, now it is being used as the 'growth' vehicle of the Qantas group due to only one thing, its cost base. The board / CEO / Shareholders don't give a sh*t if the staff who are proud of the Qantas name see this as destruction of the brand. What they are interested in is stripping Qantas mainline of all its perceived high cost elements to replace them with 'lesser costs'.

My pick is that the Qantas board have 'created' a whirlwind of feeling around the QSA / Unreasonable Unions etc and seem to have hooked the government into believing they need help. We will see massive cutbacks announced on the 27th, the Unions will be forced to accept big reductions in contracts which will effectively introduce 'B' scales and a new underclass of workers. I have noticed some pilots on here who are already talking about what the 'B' scale will look like. Once the costs are restructured we will find that options will be exercised for new aircraft to be flown / crewed / maintained by the cheapest bidders and the network will start to expand again. Backed by Government debt guarantees and support for wholesale changes to the QSA and FWA Qantas will emerge as a money making machine after which time the CEO / Board and Shareholders will pocket massive bonuses, leave the company with millions of dollars patting themselves on the back whilst the staff remain on the new 'improved' conditions.

[Ngineer]

would all the pilot group try and negotiate all new conditions to save there colleagues?

That would be completely pointless. The management would never allow this to happen. They don't want Australian employees, the end game is to outsource overseas. What will happen this Thursday is just a transition stage of a much grander plan. To try and negotiate lower wages in order to save jobs would not fit in with this plan.

Maybe this $300 million dollar loss could be a one-off hit from the cost of Project Marlin that has been placed on the balance sheets in order to hoodwink the government and Aussie public into thinking they are in dire straits. How else does one explain the recent sharebuy back and its apparent poor timing?