MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
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I wish everyone would take a deep breathe before they devour each other. This is a poker game and what you see is NOT what you are going to get because that is the the way AJ has decided to play the game.There is a long history of that and he applies it to everyone, staff, unions and now the govt and even Albenese. Has anyone asked why company funds are being spent on a private meeting with 60 parliamentary members and why this was even necessary. Probably written off to Chairman's Lounge cost centre anyway. The whole concept was outrageous and perfectly timed for results announcement.
True. It is tragic.
No need to fight each other over it though.
A friend of mine says the new Corporate Headquarters at Coward St are fantastic, so it's not all bad!
More bonuses, big pats on the back and we can all ook forward to seeing a big uptick in the next Engagement Survey.
You could not make this up, you really couldn't. It's not rearranging deck chairs, it's reupholstering them and changing the curtains and carpets as well!
No need to fight each other over it though.
A friend of mine says the new Corporate Headquarters at Coward St are fantastic, so it's not all bad!
More bonuses, big pats on the back and we can all ook forward to seeing a big uptick in the next Engagement Survey.
You could not make this up, you really couldn't. It's not rearranging deck chairs, it's reupholstering them and changing the curtains and carpets as well!
Oh yeah. The New Coward. It's amaazing! I thought I'd taken a wrong turn and stumbled into the Grand Hyatt Mascot. I was surprised when my ID opened the turnstiles, frankly, as line pilots are all 'arms length' from the offices these days. [Line pilots no longer have an office in the Head Office complex. We've been decentralised onto our Ipads].
The good news is, I believe, that the renovations were paid for by the buildings' owners and QF just pays it back through [ahem] higher leasing costs.
The good news is, I believe, that the renovations were paid for by the buildings' owners and QF just pays it back through [ahem] higher leasing costs.
Last edited by Captain Gidday; 16th Feb 2014 at 09:33.
Maybe they are just running two angles with the same aim, the aim of EK taking over QF.
First, try and get foreign ownership restrictions removed so EK can buy a 50% stake in QF.
Second angle, split the company in two so that EK can buy in that way if option one fails.
If one doesn't work then the other method will.
Outcome? EK get the increase in mass they seek to secure a leading position in an industry that will be dominated by only a few companies by 2025 and QF get to still exist in 2025.
First, try and get foreign ownership restrictions removed so EK can buy a 50% stake in QF.
Second angle, split the company in two so that EK can buy in that way if option one fails.
If one doesn't work then the other method will.
Outcome? EK get the increase in mass they seek to secure a leading position in an industry that will be dominated by only a few companies by 2025 and QF get to still exist in 2025.
GG, quick question, fair enough that a Pilot at QF might cost 66K more than a Pilot at Jetstar, but does that take into account the fact that there are far more Pilots at QF who have been there for Multiple decades than at Jetstar?
Isn't that the whole point of QF paying Pilots more per year to encourage loyalty, to retain highly experienced Pilots and keep that experience within the company to be passed onto future Pilots?
Isn't that the whole point of QF paying Pilots more per year to encourage loyalty, to retain highly experienced Pilots and keep that experience within the company to be passed onto future Pilots?
Ixixly that's based on like for like. If you replaced JQ guys with QF guys on QF conditions. IE 737 and 330 rates. This came from a senior manager down the line.
All airlines receive loyalty regardless of the company or the conditions. Would a JQ captain move to Qantas as an SO? Would a DJ captain do the same? Would a JQ captain after ten years service move to DJ?
Seniority dictates where you stay. Barely any guys leave any Australian airline unless it goes broke or they retire. The odd few head to the sandpit, but you could count them on one hand in the last five years.
All airlines receive loyalty regardless of the company or the conditions. Would a JQ captain move to Qantas as an SO? Would a DJ captain do the same? Would a JQ captain after ten years service move to DJ?
Seniority dictates where you stay. Barely any guys leave any Australian airline unless it goes broke or they retire. The odd few head to the sandpit, but you could count them on one hand in the last five years.
They don't care about foreign ownership limitations. It didn't stop TPG securing a local investor, flush with their cash, from almost taking QF private.
The limitation is about as effective as the Singaporean one with regards to Newstar's investment in Jetstar Asia, Dennis Choo, 51% and Qantas the other 49% directly. Qantas exercise effective 100% control of Jetstar Asia, there is nothing stopping that sort of arrange with Qantas today.
Read the guts of the QSA and you'll see the parts they don't want to be constrained by. All of that aggregate majority stuff - maintenance, training, stuff like that.
It's not about a foreigner buying Qantas, it's about wanting to offshore the lot whilst maintaining rights from within Australia.
The limitation is about as effective as the Singaporean one with regards to Newstar's investment in Jetstar Asia, Dennis Choo, 51% and Qantas the other 49% directly. Qantas exercise effective 100% control of Jetstar Asia, there is nothing stopping that sort of arrange with Qantas today.
Read the guts of the QSA and you'll see the parts they don't want to be constrained by. All of that aggregate majority stuff - maintenance, training, stuff like that.
It's not about a foreigner buying Qantas, it's about wanting to offshore the lot whilst maintaining rights from within Australia.
(f) prohibit Qantas from conducting scheduled international air transport passenger services under a name other than:
(i) its company name; or
(ii) a registered business name that includes the expression “Qantas”; and
(g) require that the head office of Qantas always be located in Australia; and
(h) require that of the facilities, taken in aggregate, which are used by Qantas in the provision of scheduled international air transport services (for example, facilities for the maintenance and housing of aircraft, catering, flight operations, training and administration), the facilities located in Australia, when compared with those located in any other country, must represent the principal operational centre for Qantas;
(i) its company name; or
(ii) a registered business name that includes the expression “Qantas”; and
(g) require that the head office of Qantas always be located in Australia; and
(h) require that of the facilities, taken in aggregate, which are used by Qantas in the provision of scheduled international air transport services (for example, facilities for the maintenance and housing of aircraft, catering, flight operations, training and administration), the facilities located in Australia, when compared with those located in any other country, must represent the principal operational centre for Qantas;
Last edited by 600ft-lb; 16th Feb 2014 at 11:49.
The Green Goblin
it's about an extra 66k a pilot. Give a little for a captain, take a little for an FO.
It's about right from what I've seen.
it's about an extra 66k a pilot. Give a little for a captain, take a little for an FO.
It's about right from what I've seen.
I have a few friends in the Middle East and Asia that are earning incomes that are more than QF mainline pilots. I remember in some other thread someone worked out on a per seat basis a Qantas mainline 737 pilot earns 4% more than a Cobham 717 pilot. With my qualifications I could earn more working at Virgin as a LAME and there is plenty of opportunities in the Middle East that pay even more than virgin.
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With my qualifications I could earn more working at Virgin as a LAME and there is plenty of opportunities in the Middle East that pay even more than virgin
VA has been around for about 10 years. I have been with QF for almost 3 decades. I believe I am fairly paid for my experience and qualifications.
I've run the numbers and on a >7 year contract net of all taxes and expenses I would be about $10K per annum better off in the Sandpit, and that is certifying for only one of the aircraft I am licenced on - assuming I pick up no licences while there. According to the recruiter my chances of being trained on another type or perhaps three are very high within two years of arriving, which makes the numbers even more desirable. I would not be doing the vast majority of the hands on work I do now, but "supervising" and certifying for 6 - 10 workers.
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. Its not comparing apples with apples.
The JQ A320 rate was something like the Impulse 717 rate plus 10%.
Then the A330 rate plus 10% on top of that.
I would actually argue JQ pilots are paid more than QF pilots.
Ten years service at JQ will get you an A330 Captains pay.
Ten years Qantas an A380 Second Officer pay.
Five years at JQ an A320 Captains pay.
Five years at Qantas an A330 Second Officer pay.
Comparing apples for apples. Time working in the Qantas group versus take home pay.
Anyone who joined Qantas mainline in the last 15 years(that's about half the pilot population) has been screwed over in that regard.
MC.
The JQ A320 rate was something like the Impulse 717 rate plus 10%.
Then the A330 rate plus 10% on top of that.
I would actually argue JQ pilots are paid more than QF pilots.
Ten years service at JQ will get you an A330 Captains pay.
Ten years Qantas an A380 Second Officer pay.
Five years at JQ an A320 Captains pay.
Five years at Qantas an A330 Second Officer pay.
Comparing apples for apples. Time working in the Qantas group versus take home pay.
Anyone who joined Qantas mainline in the last 15 years(that's about half the pilot population) has been screwed over in that regard.
MC.
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It's not about a foreigner buying Qantas, it's about wanting to offshore the lot whilst maintaining rights from within Australia.
This seems to be the main point that the media and our Gov have not been discussing of late. They seem more distracted with who owns the airline or who is injecting the cash into it, rather than who is working for it.
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It's not about a foreigner buying Qantas, it's about wanting to offshore the lot whilst maintaining rights from within Australia.
and
They seem more distracted with who owns the airline or who is injecting the cash into it, rather than who is working for it.
I agree with the both of you.... 100%
.
Last edited by TIMA9X; 18th Feb 2014 at 09:41.
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I still remember very fondly my first ever International flight, from Sydney via Hong Kong to London and return a couple of weeks later, back in 1968 with Qantas.
I was so proud to be onboard our National Airline, pushed back at Sydney exactly on time and remained on time and incident free for the whole trip.
IF it was up to me I think the Australian Government should purchase Qantas back again and go back to the way we were, but guess that is not going to happen.
I was so proud to be onboard our National Airline, pushed back at Sydney exactly on time and remained on time and incident free for the whole trip.
IF it was up to me I think the Australian Government should purchase Qantas back again and go back to the way we were, but guess that is not going to happen.
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Management don't care if you've been around for 5 or 10 years, they just care how much a CAPT or FO cost.
In 2001, on the most junior widebody fleet the newest of FO's was paid the first year pay rate. In 2014 that same fleet has ALL pilots on the highest pay rate of 12th year.
Every single Longhaul First Officer is now on the highest pay rate company wide of 12 years.
On the A380, the aircraft has only been in the fleet since 2008. However with the finest Qantas Management at work they are re-deploying pilots to it at the highest 12th year pay rate as SO's.
Failing to provide mainline pilots career options elsewhere has cost them an absolute fortune. They should be recruiting off the street to fill the SO spots on the A380.
AJ's shrinking the airline to grow. Finds him putting SO's on the A380 at 12th year pay. Someone should remind AJ thats a pay rate 83% higher than a new recruit.
That lack of career opportunities within the group is paying big dividends Alan. Your a genius.
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Can someone explain why Qantas does not simply terminate the employment of these pilots? That is what every other business around the country would do. What is it that makes the Qantas situation so different?