MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
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Location: Singapore
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The "side deals" that exist for Jetstar Asia are by no means illegal or deceitful. Qantas just controls Jetstar Asia through a series of management and loan agreements, allowing them to circumvent (legally) the law in Singapore on foreign ownership of airlines. Qantas takes on the entire financial liability of the company and derives the full financial benefit (if any) - just as they do with Jet Connect. Jet Connect is a 100% owned subsidiary and also does not appear under investments accounted for under the equity method - same for Jetstar Asia.
The only conclusion I am trying to draw from the above is that Jetstar Asia effectively functions as a subsidiary of the Qantas Group, nothing more and nothing less - and what they are doing is legal. Virgin Australia has also pursued a similar structure that Qantas has done with Jetstar Asia (and it's Ansett International that pioneered that split structure in Australia anyway)
As to whether Jetstar Asia has made a good return on investment, has been positive for shareholders, or whether there is a leasing rort going on between interested parties and Qantas subsidiaries - that's out of the scope of the conclusion I was trying to draw from my analysis. However, chasing silly investments, trying to launch an LCC in HK despite the airport's congestion and domination by CX, or pulling out of Frankfurt despite 90% load factors - is by no means a crime.
The only conclusion I am trying to draw from the above is that Jetstar Asia effectively functions as a subsidiary of the Qantas Group, nothing more and nothing less - and what they are doing is legal. Virgin Australia has also pursued a similar structure that Qantas has done with Jetstar Asia (and it's Ansett International that pioneered that split structure in Australia anyway)
As to whether Jetstar Asia has made a good return on investment, has been positive for shareholders, or whether there is a leasing rort going on between interested parties and Qantas subsidiaries - that's out of the scope of the conclusion I was trying to draw from my analysis. However, chasing silly investments, trying to launch an LCC in HK despite the airport's congestion and domination by CX, or pulling out of Frankfurt despite 90% load factors - is by no means a crime.
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Probably not - The collateral for Choo's "loan" is his stake in Jetstar Asia. He probably has nearly zero real interest in Jetstar, Qantas possibly pays him a nominal fee a year to use his name to front the company. Choo is just Qantas' proxy through which they control Jetstar Asia.
Qantas to send its Avalon heavy-maintenance work overseas
QANTAS will send heavy maintenance on its remaining Boeing 747 jets offshore after its operation at Victoria's Avalon Airport shuts in March.
The move means heavy maintenance on both of the airline's biggest planes, the 747 and the Airbus A380, will now be done overseas and comes after discussions with unions known as "an outsourcing protocol".
Two 747s scheduled for maintenance checks in May will be sent to Hong Kong-based maintenance organisation HAECO, while an international tender process will be launched for subsequent work.
QANTAS will send heavy maintenance on its remaining Boeing 747 jets offshore after its operation at Victoria's Avalon Airport shuts in March.
The move means heavy maintenance on both of the airline's biggest planes, the 747 and the Airbus A380, will now be done overseas and comes after discussions with unions known as "an outsourcing protocol".
Two 747s scheduled for maintenance checks in May will be sent to Hong Kong-based maintenance organisation HAECO, while an international tender process will be launched for subsequent work.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Inside their OODA loop
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Thank you DrPepz for you cogent & insightful analysis, your thoughts are always welcome.
Correct, its not a crime, however, equally as Joe Hockey has pointed out, its not a reason to put the Australian taxpayer on the hook without a forensic investigation of the books. Now Qantas are actually wanting the government to do something (what that is hasn't been explained in public).
This is AJ's problem in a nutshell. He appears to have been under the assumption that the "simpletons" wouldn't figure it out. Well, those simpletons appear to have enough of the puzzle to make life extremely difficult for him.
Unlike Ansett, this is being tracked analysed & discussed in real time, and the element of surprise is lost. When he goes cap in hand, the politicians know EXACTLY which accounts to view and questions to ask.
As to whether Jetstar Asia has made a good return on investment, has been positive for shareholders, or whether there is a leasing rort going on between interested parties and Qantas subsidiaries - that's out of the scope of the conclusion I was trying to draw from my analysis. However, chasing silly investments, trying to launch an LCC in HK despite the airport's congestion and domination by CX, or pulling out of Frankfurt despite 90% load factors - is by no means a crime
This is AJ's problem in a nutshell. He appears to have been under the assumption that the "simpletons" wouldn't figure it out. Well, those simpletons appear to have enough of the puzzle to make life extremely difficult for him.
Unlike Ansett, this is being tracked analysed & discussed in real time, and the element of surprise is lost. When he goes cap in hand, the politicians know EXACTLY which accounts to view and questions to ask.
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Armidale
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It may not be illegal and I am sure it isn't because Qantas has huge resources to ensure the rules are not broken. What is not acceptable is the over $200 million worth of losses that Orangestar made before "it was unable to meet it's obligations" and was taken over by Newstar. Since then Newstar has lost over $300 million up to August 2012. Shareholders need to get angry because when this all hits the fan questions will be asked and as happened in the US the "Assets will go private and the Debt will go public" if Australia wants to have an aviation industry. The consultants will be gone by then! And remember 75% of all Jetstar lease go through Ireland. Dr Pepz has a new fashioned view of ethics, e.g. there is none!
Solomon's Son, I think Dr Pepz was speaking in terms of corporate law, not ethics as taught in days of old. He is right: Qantas seem to be orchestrating their various endeavours abroad to be at once opaque and legal.
The ethical/moral obligations as understood in the Judeo-Christian value system have been sidelined; welcome to the new Feudalism. Serf's Up!
The ethical/moral obligations as understood in the Judeo-Christian value system have been sidelined; welcome to the new Feudalism. Serf's Up!
Is this the same huge resources for legal advice to make sure things are 'legal' that were advising Qantas about cargo price fixing cartels that have/had one of their management types jailed in the USA?
When booking cruises (or most other non-flying services) on the Qantas website, the process will be handled by an entity called Hooroo.
Hooroo is, in effect, Jetstar. Qantas provide the infrastructure, Jetstar earn the revenue.
Hooroo is, in effect, Jetstar. Qantas provide the infrastructure, Jetstar earn the revenue.
Last edited by C441; 21st Jan 2014 at 22:32.
Going Boeing,
Re Qantas investing in TN, i think you will find that the re alllocation of qantas 767s to domestic use, cost Qantas next to nothing!
I have seen the Qantas Aircraft utilisation schedules at that time, and the 767 utilisation by Qantas had large amounts of down time,
and a tighter utilisation schedule released those 767s,
with no reduction in international flying!
Re Qantas investing in TN, i think you will find that the re alllocation of qantas 767s to domestic use, cost Qantas next to nothing!
I have seen the Qantas Aircraft utilisation schedules at that time, and the 767 utilisation by Qantas had large amounts of down time,
and a tighter utilisation schedule released those 767s,
with no reduction in international flying!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
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Time to lock it in.....
Will demands be made to secure employee entitlements?
It was ten years before Ansett staff received what rightfully belonged to them.
You may need it immediately available to just get by.....
Surely this has to be the first and foremost obligation upon a company asking taxpayers (the government) for assistance, particularly when offshoring......
Ansett employees get final payment - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
It was ten years before Ansett staff received what rightfully belonged to them.
You may need it immediately available to just get by.....
Surely this has to be the first and foremost obligation upon a company asking taxpayers (the government) for assistance, particularly when offshoring......
Ansett employees get final payment - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Qantas selling cruises. What a joke. People who would be considering a holiday and looking at the flight specials on the Qf website will now be directed to spend their hard earned cash elsewhere.
What will the morons think of next, setting up a ticket box to sell Syd to Mel rail tix?
What will the morons think of next, setting up a ticket box to sell Syd to Mel rail tix?
Re Qantas investing in TN, i think you will find that the re alllocation of qantas 767s to domestic use, cost Qantas next to nothing!
I have seen the Qantas Aircraft utilisation schedules at that time, and the 767 utilisation by Qantas had large amounts of down time,
and a tighter utilisation schedule released those 767s, with no reduction in international flying!
I have seen the Qantas Aircraft utilisation schedules at that time, and the 767 utilisation by Qantas had large amounts of down time,
and a tighter utilisation schedule released those 767s, with no reduction in international flying!