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MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

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MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

Old 16th Dec 2013, 17:12
  #1061 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: S33E151
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Of the $1b or so I believe the idiots have thrown at Jetstar and failed to net dollar 1, even the dole would be an 'extraordinary opportunity' - aaaammaaaaaaazzziiinnnggg business notwithstanding.

He got the job in 2010 - the Oz had a piece about how the great 'new look' Jetstar management team were poised to dominate the universe. Things cant be that rosey if their 'talented team' are a) not being poached by Borghetti and b) leaving to pursue dream careers like make up sales.

Having said that, when you do finally work out you are working for fools and idiots (or you realise you are one yourself) the honourable thing to do is to resign.

It would be very interesting to know why!
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 17:42
  #1062 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2007
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Interesting article. Even if you don't like Geoffrey Thomas.

Airline Ratings
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 19:06
  #1063 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Might be interesting, but the writer knows little about Qantas/Jetsar, and understands less.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 19:08
  #1064 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Thomas speaks so much crap. People aren't abandoning Qantas. They have the highest load factors of all airlines flying in and out of Aus.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 19:40
  #1065 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Australia
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The landscape is starkly different today. For 2013 the number of fatal crashes involving IATA members is likely to be zero.
Perhaps Geoff might spend 5 minutes fact checking, I think Asiana is still an IATA member!
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 19:43
  #1066 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Problem is Qantas operates a lot less flights in and out while foreign airlines have greatly increased capacity. Thank the Open Skies policy for that one.

Full aeroplanes doesn't mean profit necessarily too if the airfares aren't high enough! Qantas is way too top heavy. Too many managers.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 20:51
  #1067 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 55
What if.........

Her is an interesting question. If Big Al got the punt would The Borg abandon the good ship Virgin and return as the knight in shining armour to rescue Q? I know there are probably a lot of variables and contract agreements involved but it would be interesting. One would like to think he would stay loyal to his current company and employees but reading the Thomas article with references to Rod Eddington bought back some memories. Good old Rod talked the talk and handed out 'I Made Ansett a Better Business' badges (still got a pile of them) to all his employees until he got a bigger offer from BA. Off faster than a Bondi/St Kilda tram.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:00
  #1068 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Show us the (load factor) figuers SP
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:06
  #1069 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hunter Valley NSW
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Mobi Lame. I have a mate that got shafted in QF, the same time as Borgetti, he is a close mate of his, and he reckons he can really be a nasty little bugger, when annoyed, and annoyed was not the word, when he got shafted. He reckons Borgetti would not go back, even if you offered him a block of flats, and he will not rest until the destroys Joyce, and if that means destroying QF...................................? There were a couple of blokes that went with Borgetti, and my mate is one of them. You might guess who he is, he was shattered for a while, he put his heart and soul into the company, but that was his reward. He is doing fine now, and moved on, but ask him about Borgetti, the bloke is still ready to kill. I would not count on him returning. One of the biggest mistakes QF ever made, ever, and he will make them pay. Somehow, I don't blame him.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:07
  #1070 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Nikki In Oz

I agree in fact I have been saying the same thing.

If AJ were so hopeless, the shareholders would have registered dissatisfaction loud and clear.

He is doing exactly what he was given the job to do, and something Borghetti probably would not have done.
He is going about re alligning wages and conditions with those of the airlines in the region. Rather than confrontational attack on the unions, he is setting up other vehicles which have the desired conditions in order to gradually squeeze the main operation into submission.

Furthermore, many of those installed at the top in Jetstar have a history of being prepared to walk over others careers for their own gain. Many of them were inept, or worse, negligent in their previous company . They did what was necessary to save their own skins, handing up any mates they saw along the way and are still doing it. Dangerous mob to have at the hands of Al's preferred vehicle from Qf perspective.
But just what he needs.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:15
  #1071 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Exiled in the Ukraine
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Well, since I posted a few days ago, it would appear that I am not the only person who thinks that the costs at Qantas are way too high.

With Captains earning more than $400K, First Officers earning almost $300K, Second Officers earning more than $200K, and Flight Attendants earning more than $100K its perhaps no wonder that AJ started setting up Airlines abroad. Maybe he realised that the costs of doing business were too high in Australia.

I am amused when guys here say "well Australia is a high cost country"......well I think you may just be pricing yourselves out of business. Salaries have to be higher in the sandpit as they need to attract crews to somewhere which in many peoples eyes can be a pretty dire place to live, and bring up a family.

....and as for those who opt to defer a window seat....it could be a very high risk gamble.

Qantas may be sitting on a cash pile, but it is dwindling, and when it gets to around the last 1 Billion or so, the refuel companies, caterers and credit card companies will want paying in cash, and then the cash burn will become much more rapid.

It is not just AJ that is ruining Qantas, it is employee/union greed as well.
Niki in oz, can't wait for your 5th post, what a gem that piece was. OW couldn't have written it better herself. This old chestnut about our salaries always seems to get dragged out when management are under pressure. Divide and conquer rings a bell.

As we all keep hearing being mentioned, It's all the pilots fault, plus the engineers and the cabin crews. Oh, Plus the ground staff, travel agencies, the Aussie dollar, the US dollar, the price of fuel, being an end of the line airline, the government, foreign airlines, domestic airlines, the weather, the volcanoes, Boeing, airbus, old technology, new technology, my mum, my dad, the little lady down the lane. Etc, etc.
But guess what, I'm sure it isn't the fault of the people put in charge to run the airline, namely the management, the board and Alan Joyce.

Here is a quick question. In a two year period do you think pilot salaries have come close to $260million dollars??????
Yet in two instances over the last two years our little Irish leader has squandered $200 mil shutting the airline down and another $60mill to a Jetstar offshore franchise which has not returned one operating dollar to the group. If our leaders have that sort of cash to throw around then i would suggest salaries might not be the crux of the problem.
I'm sure others smarter than me can also add other examples of millions squandered under this current management.

So lets all cut the crap about salaries, they are merely a side show to the mismanagement we have suffered over the past 5-8 years and its about time this lot go so Qantas and its loyal staff can move forward before there is nothing left.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:21
  #1072 (permalink)  
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Spellcheck, if the grounding of the Airline was not confrontational,
what is ??
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:29
  #1073 (permalink)  
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You know... Nikki's posts have been quite reasonable.
So - Ok Stalin and others.
Here's a question for you then.
What would YOU do?
What is your strategy for rescuing QF mainline?
No abuse or vindictive statements... give me a reasoned strategy.
Joyce is gone... you are in the CEO's chair.
What fleet decisions would you make?
What would your competitive advantage be (that's not a business school buzz phrase by the way) and how would you keep it sustainable?
What would be your core markets - and where would you fly to?
What areas would you target for cost cutting?
Would you keep JQ?
What about heavy maintenance - onshore or offshore, and why?
What would you do about the QSA?
You should be able to provide answers to all these questions in around 150-200 words or so; the same length as one of these posts.
I'm intrigued to see what you have to say.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:34
  #1074 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I stand corrected on that. Yes that was the ultimate in confrontational.
But I think you can see that he is trying to establish an alternative vehicle at a lower cost base. One which has cannibalised the mainline operation with gusto!
Its just that all this talk about Joyce and his inept, damaging style of management is missing the point of the outcome he wants to achieve.
Its just mind boggling how far he, and those in the know, are prepared to go to achieve it.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:35
  #1075 (permalink)  
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if the grounding of the Airline was not confrontational,
what is ??
The grounding didn't confront the unions directly. It was a highly dangerous ploy to get the government to do the job for management. I say dangerous because it carried the risk of further trashing of the brand. Something that I feel happened to some extent & something that management don't seem to be too concerned about.

It also had the advantage that a direction to return to work would be pretty much binding & would kill off any further industrial action.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:40
  #1076 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
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First thing I would do is re negotiate wages and conditions. Lower wages to match competitors but institute Bonus payment for employees based on company performance and share offers in lieu of salary difference.
Remuneration tied to company performance. Extrinsic motivational tools to see company succeed, based on a proprietary sense of attachment which comes from ownership.
Thats for starters,
got to go !!
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:44
  #1077 (permalink)  
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More please guys...
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:49
  #1078 (permalink)  
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I wrote this in a message to someone who asked me the same question a while ago. I could keep going, but I think it spells out the basics. I wish to point out that the situation was a LOT better when I wrote this, but the writing was clearly on the wall. Jetstar had maybe 'only' gobbled up $500m at that stage or

Here is a start. Firstly sack the LOT above dept head level. Either they are incompetent of they should have resigned. If they haven't resigned then they agree, if they agree they deserve to be hung on a lamppost outside QCA.

Engineers and pilots should be involved in route and aircraft selection far more than they have been - witness DFW.

Cabin crew must be involved in cabin interior and service to a very high degree.

Though I know little about it same with ground staff.

A 'good' CEO is needed urgently. If it were me I would treat the place like Churchill did in 1939 - set up a war cabinet with direct contact to all the people who would count. People with experience in their areas. None of this business KPI bullshit - people who actually know what they are doing from experience.

Getting to that point, the union heads must be closely involved - we all know if this doesn't succeed its game over. Its a big call but if it were me and I was a union head who had confidence in a CEO I would say something like 'our members will take a 5-10% pay cut for 24-48 months - PROVIDED we agree with operational decisions'. This is War Cabinet stuff really - Churchill eliminated the opposition parties - in WWII it was one cabinet equally chosen and when everyone pulls together (Borghetti again it works. They need to realise staff are NOT the enemy.

Every route needs to be treated as a precious resource - like a struggling small business where every single point counts. I would get a group of 'travellers' randomly selected from ex or very senior cabin crew/ground staff and send them on every sector over 3-6 months - maybe even a few times and a couple of different airlines. Their reports would form the basis of immediate streamlining and reform. Nothing about 'getting' people, just about 'what aren't we doing right compared to everyone else' and 'how can we improve the customer experience' - but from people with proven operational experience, not the idiots that have managed it for the last 15 or so years.

All staff need to be given responsibility to make decisions and not be afraid of retribution (within reason) if something goes wrong. It is better to have 100 happy customers and one accidental screw up than 100 pissed of customers that could have been placated with a bottle of wine leaving the aircraft.

The ALAEA knows exactly what condition the a/c are in and how things should be done, without being crazy with this Aussie OH&S bullshit, the same goes for every coal face dept. Get a 'sensible' union rep and senior engineer to 'sensibly' look at all these engineering bases and decide what was sensible and what was plain and simple bloody mindedness. I don't know enough about engineering to be in a position to comment really, but if it is anything like the rest of the company, stupid decisions would have been forced upon them and anyone sensible would have known immediately they were bad. That garbage HAS to stop. Engineers are the backbone of this company - no point having an iPad if #2 lets go on takeoff.

My opinion is Jet* is a union busting joke. In fact not union busting, but experience busting. Nothing but an exercise to put wally 23yo MBA's in positions of power so the even younger staff are not in a position to question anything. Clearly a basis for great airline operations. Absolutely insane.

Qantas is Qantas. Rebrand it as such, split the cabin service up on each a/c if you have to, but the goal of every LCC is to work out how to charge more for a product, Qantas could already do that. Space available even offer an upgrade service at check in? The mis matching of service (putting Qf pax on Jet* and vice versa) is just ******* stupid! WHY? The only reason could be so GD LC and now AJ etc can split something off when they want some pocket money....

Collective intelligence is always going to trump a decision made by a coterie of greasy pole climbing yes men. The last govt was a disaster because of way over centralised control. Hawke/Keating worked because of 'full and frank' meetings which nutted out good policy solutions and implementation BEFORE they were launched on an unsuspecting public and legal system. You MUST have counter arguments to achieve a sound result - In Qantas it has been 'this is what we decided and this is what you will do' - in some cases by paid consultants who know even less than the people throwing money at them! Ultimate Group Think MADNESS by people who don't (and will never) even know what a cockpit, engine cowling or galley even looks like!

Having someone like Olivia Wirth clearly having impact on an major company's policy is just outrageous - especially in something as technical as an airline. What I have learnt is pretty basic and pretty easy to implement but big business has 'lost' basic skills - make people happy...

Last edited by V-Jet; 16th Dec 2013 at 21:59.
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 21:59
  #1079 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2000
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but big business has 'lost' basic skills - make people happy...
Most (if not all) big business has forgotten their reason for being there, the customers...
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Old 16th Dec 2013, 22:13
  #1080 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
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I agree with you V-Jet that JQ is a union busting move.
Absolutely - but rather than a joke - I think it's deadly serious.
Pilots and Engineers in route planning? Sure, no disrespect, but the fundamental decisions there are payload/range and discretionary income of the target market, plus desire for inbound travel on their part, yield and competition pricing strategy.
And engineering?
Onshore or offshore, Brisbane, or HAECO - or somewhere else similar, AMECO or even Mr Nasty-stein's old mates at KLM? (your answer to this one really intrigues me).
What about fleet rationalisation?
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