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MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

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MERGED: Alan's still not happy......

Old 18th Aug 2014, 10:44
  #4761 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Going nowhere...
Posts: 315
I'm with AI... sort of...

In my view QF upper management (hereafter called 'they') have been paid big bucks for a long time, not to make QF profitable and pay dividends but rather to follow through on a plan, which they realised would be unpalatable to employees, to strip down cost structures & drive 'efficiencies' despite the enemies they would make; profits and dividends will return with the miraculous 'turn-around' built into the plan for the next year or two.

I reckon the last few years could have been completely different if they had chosen a path of open & honest communication, defining the perceived problems transparently, allowing a few employee questions about the assertions being made, truthful comparisons with the competition, setting understandable goals re costs/fleet and directing attention to the resultant expansion which would be possible etc.

Instead, they have shown themselves to be disingenuous, deceptive, misleading, scheming, obfuscating and obtuse toward (mostly) competent, honest, proud and loyal employees. They have brought about varying degrees of damage to 'the brand' both through their own actions, and also the actions they precipitated by employees who had no faith in such appalling 'leadership'.

It's water under the bridge now but, in a period of undoubted challenge when national policy has been but one part of an 'un-level playing field', I believe employee 'buy-in' and contribution to the solutions could have achieved so much more than the dysfunctional, aggressive, stress-inducing, engagement-sapping management posturing of the Dixon/Joyce era.

Time may clear the air, and perhaps history will be the judge....
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 10:45
  #4762 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Melbourne
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Intrigued... Pray tell, what then?

It may go something like this.

Flight MH17 Crash Could Hasten Ailing Malaysia Airlines Privatisation
Last edited by Acute Instinct; 18th Aug 2014 at 20:29.
Sorry, don't get it.

Suppose the airline DID find itself in "private hands". what then? How would the new owners bring about a return to profitability? Is it not so mortally wounded and now so short of money that would be an impossibility?
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 11:49
  #4763 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Suppose the airline DID find itself in "private hands". what then? How would the new owners bring about a return to profitability? Is it not so mortally wounded and now so short of money that would be an impossibility?
Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations.
--
Attributed to George Orwell
Mr Joyce said a debt default by Qantas would "never occur", even in the event the Qantas Sale Act was not changed or the federal government did not guarantee any of its debt.
The Australian 6th of March 2014.
If you "feel" the terror, or believe the myth, its probably PR. There is a plan involving a big pile of money to be shared between a few.

The last CEO had a plan, and almost pulled it off, and in all likelihood current mob do to. However, they need everyone to believe its a dog first.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 11:53
  #4764 (permalink)  
 
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The last CEO had a plan, and almost pulled it off, and in all likelihood current mob do to. However, they need everyone to believe its a dog first.
I see. My mistake is thinking D & D are morons. I hadn't considered they might simply be thieves.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 12:17
  #4765 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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To answer your question IMHO....

"Suppose the airline DID find itself in "private hands". what then? How would the new owners bring about a return to profitability?
Answer: Industrial relations behind closed doors, that would be the intent of achieving privacy in this scenario.....
Is it not so mortally wounded and now so short of money that would be an impossibility?"
Answer: No

Last edited by Acute Instinct; 18th Aug 2014 at 12:28.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 15:47
  #4766 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Unhappy Industrial relations behind closed doors?

Hey AI,

How does:

Answer: Industrial relations behind closed doors, that would be the intent of achieving privacy in this scenario.....
work under Australian legislation? How is it different?
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 18:07
  #4767 (permalink)  
 
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The company is being dismantled,....To blame this crap on managerial incompetence, as opposed to a controlled demolition, is laughable.
Never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice. But never fully discount stupidity.
With apologies to Hanlon
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 20:58
  #4768 (permalink)  
 
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Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
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I have always been, and remain, in the camp that believes our woes are the result of a puffed up drunkard chairman and a peewee narcisist CEO whose behaviour has most of the hallmarks of a psycopath.

Who cares? Seriously, what is the difference to us if it is being done out of idiocy or by design? The end result will be essentially the same.

Qantas is not the only big Australian company going through a similar destruction of value at the hands of an idealogue board and an executive of MBa grads with no industry experience.

It could just be that there are more board chairs than responsible, sober candidates. It seems also to be true that an MBa absent industry experience is no guarantee of rational decisions.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 22:11
  #4769 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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My latest opinion of the script is that Jetstar is going to be sold privately. Probably to American hedge funds with some Australian involvement. probably KKR with which the Qantas Chairman is involved I'm told.

After Jetstar is sold, Qantas collapses. Jetstar wil have taken all the "crown jewels" from Qantas. Jetstar will openly compete with Qantas domestically and drive it into bankruptcy. The Jetstar folk know exactly what routes are profitable in Qantas and what are not.

To put that another way, you will see the child kill the parent.

After that, the Qantas assets, including the brand, will be up for auction and the only buyer will be....Jetstar. Nobody else can bid because Jetstar controls the domestic market and can crush any emerging competitor.

Jetstar then rebrands itself as Qantas and ... job done. Qantas is now a completely privately held business and proceeds to rape Australian travellers yet again.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 22:54
  #4770 (permalink)  
 
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Location: Australia
Posts: 186
Man dives into bucket......

Hey AI,
How does:
Quote:
Answer: Industrial relations behind closed doors, that would be the intent of achieving privacy in this scenario.....
work under Australian legislation? How is it different?

Its really no different to what's happening now. Its just that nobody will hear the screams. The current industrial agreements remain in force until they are either renegotiated, dissolved by government intervention, or there isn't anybody left to work them. The aviation awards have not been updated for years and hold no resemblance to your current T and C's, though still enforceable. Should negotiations fail, the award safety net comes into place. The gap between industrial instruments is now so wide, the award affords about as much safety as the bucket......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvFTA_6NZbI

and that's the bluff.......

Australopithecus
Who cares? Seriously, what is the difference to us if it is being done out of idiocy or by design? The end result will be essentially the same.
Who cares comes down to whether or not a person is passionately connected or comes here for some sort of sick entertainment. Do I care? Absolutely.......

Last edited by Acute Instinct; 18th Aug 2014 at 23:15.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 22:54
  #4771 (permalink)  
 
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After that, the Qantas assets, including the brand, will be up for auction and the only buyer will be....Jetstar. Nobody else can bid because Jetstar controls the domestic market and can crush any emerging competitor.
The flaw in this argument is that, in the meantime, VA would've become infinitely more stronger and the domestic franchise of QF would've lost massive value. It also pre-supposes that the privatised JQ would be the only interested party in a sale process that would be controlled by receivers rather than the board. What would happen if a Chinese airline or EK saw this as a one-in-a-lifetime opportunity to buy into Australian domestic aviation on the cheap?

Jetstar then rebrands itself as Qantas and ... job done. Qantas is now a completely privately held business and proceeds to rape Australian travellers yet again.
Even allowing for the above, the QANTAS brand would be irreparably damaged with millions of pi$$ed off FF members who have lost value etc. If you want to preserve any value in a brand name this is not how you do it.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 23:22
  #4772 (permalink)  
 
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Acute Instinct: my rhetorical question of "who cares" is not about passion. I'd wager that every poster on this thread is here out of the same passion for the airline, the job and a naive belief in some kind of elemental justice. (You know: the vibe of the thing). Whilst common to all of us though, each of us will feel the result differently, and through our own shite-tinted glasses.

My point is that I am not sure that Any of us with skin in mainline will be able to tell the difference between one outcome and the other.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 23:38
  #4773 (permalink)  
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Yes, just to throw this into the mix. What would happen if EK bought Jetstar, moved it upmarket and rebranded it Emirates Australia? Or Emirates Oceania or something. Gives them domestic feed, and if they keep some SIN services, connections through their Singapore mini hub. I'm not suggesting this is likely, just throwing it open for discussion.

Just as an extra thought, the 777-200s that EK are about to phase out in Dubai, would make excellent transcontinental aircraft for the Australian Coast to Coast network. And they owe nothing. Configured in a two class cabin, with Emirates on board service standards and airport lounges, it would make a killer product.

Open a Sydney, Melbourne or Perth base for current EK crew who want to go home, the rest of the operation can be run from Network Control in Dubai, as it is now....chuck in Jetsars domestic fleet..wow, I am amazing my self at the out of the box thinking.

Last edited by SOPS; 18th Aug 2014 at 23:57.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 23:40
  #4774 (permalink)  
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The only reason to privatise it would be to break it up and flog off all the assests.

Where is a private Qantas going to fly to and in what? Wrong aeroplanes, no route structure, but alot of cash. That's the only reason you would want to privatise.

For AI's theory to be true you would want the current management to set you up with the right routes and the right aircraft. They have done neither.
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 01:03
  #4775 (permalink)  
 
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Just as an extra thought, the 777-200s that EK are about to phase out in Dubai, would make excellent transcontinental aircraft for the Australian Coast to Coast network. And they owe nothing. Configured in a two class cabin, with Emirates on board service standards and airport lounges, it would make a killer product.
The 77Es are not an excellent product for trans-continental. They are too heavy, witness the number of Asian airlines who have ditched their 777s for A330s for regional operations. The A332s are the better option and EK have plenty of them too but like the 77Es, they need a major refurb.
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 01:10
  #4776 (permalink)  
 
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Acute Instinct, you say:
Should negotiations fail, the award safety net comes into place.
I'm fairly certain that is incorrect.
If negotiations fail then the current EBA remains in place. Work Choices got repealed (thank god). So the (admittedly crap) Aviation Award would not play into the equation.

So again, how would taking the company private effect industrial relations?
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 01:55
  #4777 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Oz
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I've always said .. there is ultimately a driven industrial agenda. Think like Clifford. Think like their IR consultants. Think like Liberals.
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 03:04
  #4778 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 896
"Think like liberals"

I tried that once and later had a wet dream about Gina Reinhart. Never again
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 03:21
  #4779 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Melbourne
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I tried that once and later had a wet dream about Gina Reinhart. Never again
Your mother says if that happens again, you're washing your own sheets.
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 04:28
  #4780 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
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Beer Baron.....

AI - Should negotiations fail, the award safety net comes into place'. I'm fairly certain that is incorrect.
If negotiations fail then the current EBA remains in place. Work Choices got repealed (thank god). So the (admittedly crap) Aviation Award would not play into the equation.
Please accept my quote as a statement in summary. Perhaps I should have said 'if all else fails, at all levels of negotiation, the award is the safety net'.

Last edited by Acute Instinct; 19th Aug 2014 at 05:37.
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