MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
Sunny.
Generally appreciate your posts, however your statement about conglomerates ignores he success of the chaebols in Korea.
Pre Asian Financial crisis 8th largest world economy, dominated by a handful of conglomerates. Samsung and Hanjin for e.g.
Maui
Generally appreciate your posts, however your statement about conglomerates ignores he success of the chaebols in Korea.
Pre Asian Financial crisis 8th largest world economy, dominated by a handful of conglomerates. Samsung and Hanjin for e.g.
Maui
The Board and management is constantly being forced to divide its time between Jetstar, Qantas International, Qantas Domestic, Qantas Link, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Japan, etc., etc.
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If the Qantas Board really believed that a Low cost carrier was needed, they should have invested in the floating of a seperate public company - with its own Board and investors, that was totally at arms length.
...unfortunately it wouldn't have solved their legacy problem which i believe is mainly centred around engineering practices, which is ironic because the engineering practices have given it in no small part its safety record.
but lets not forget its (mis) managements pathological hatred of its staff which has gotten QF to the basket case it is today - oh and a complete inability to run an airline!
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Speaking of Jetstar Hong Kong, does anyone have any info on how their TLS hub is performing??
Not one flight has left with an empty seat.
Also staffing costs are running much lower than budget at its secondary HKG hub.
High fives and management bonuses all round.
Moa
Blueloo
It's easy to roll this line out but lets look at the work practices and I ask you to identify the ones we are talking about, that way they can be discussed and not just brought up as a throw away line.
I think every employee is conscious of the fact that you need to be efficient, however the problem that QF has, is that the senior management like to throw the terms like world's best practice in.
What is world's best practice?
This term should be read as the cheapest we can get away with.
The only time we have heard about comparisons was with the recent senate enquiry, which touched on the levels of lame coverage between different maintenance organisations.
Every process should be examined to look for efficiencies, but also accepting work protocols used elsewhere because they can get away with it, shouldn't be looked as the holy panacea.
it is outdated inflexible work practices
their legacy problem which i believe is mainly centred around engineering practices, which is ironic because the engineering practices have given it in no small part its safety record.
It's easy to roll this line out but lets look at the work practices and I ask you to identify the ones we are talking about, that way they can be discussed and not just brought up as a throw away line.
I think every employee is conscious of the fact that you need to be efficient, however the problem that QF has, is that the senior management like to throw the terms like world's best practice in.
What is world's best practice?
This term should be read as the cheapest we can get away with.
The only time we have heard about comparisons was with the recent senate enquiry, which touched on the levels of lame coverage between different maintenance organisations.
Every process should be examined to look for efficiencies, but also accepting work protocols used elsewhere because they can get away with it, shouldn't be looked as the holy panacea.
Well stated, hotnhigh!
"Inflexible work practices" and "legacy engineering procedures" are mainly brought about by whomever wrote the Qantas Engineering Procedures Manual.....
This manual is mainly an arse covering tome by management to try and prevent any liability on their behalf. If these procedures were followed to the letter, there wouldn't be too many aircraft actually flying...
Better not forget about OH+S requirements either, they legislated common sense out of the workplace. If the cheap Asian MRO's had to comply like we do, they would no longer be cheap!
"Inflexible work practices" and "legacy engineering procedures" are mainly brought about by whomever wrote the Qantas Engineering Procedures Manual.....
This manual is mainly an arse covering tome by management to try and prevent any liability on their behalf. If these procedures were followed to the letter, there wouldn't be too many aircraft actually flying...
Better not forget about OH+S requirements either, they legislated common sense out of the workplace. If the cheap Asian MRO's had to comply like we do, they would no longer be cheap!
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world's best practice
Thinking further about AJ's call for cutting 5000 jobs, if it is not based on any sound business principles, could it then be construed as work place bullying? I'd be willing to accept this fate if there were valid well reseached business reasons for the 5000 jobs to be cut, but not if it was just a whim of AJ's confused management style.
Cloudbuster and Maui:
With the greatest of respect, you are missing the point. Of course these businesses are successful, but the individual (and unrelated) units of the business would be even more successful if they were on their own and not as part of a larger entity.
Take Wesfarmers for example:
"Wesfarmers Industrial and Safety division is the leading provider of industrial and safety products and services in Australia and New Zealand. It also has a presence in Indonesia, export activities across the region and sourcing and logistics operations in China. Customers across mining, oil and gas, retail, construction and infrastructure, manufacturing, health and government rely on our generalist and specialist businesses."
"Blackwoods is the largest Australian distributor of industrial, engineering and safety workplace needs. A single source supplier, Blackwoods aims to deliver great customer service, competitive prices and fast delivery. The company has recently introduced an innovative shutdown and inventory management solution for customers.
Blackwoods export into southern Asia, Africa and the south Pacific regions. The company’s business-to-business and internet ordering solutions are supported in-house by Blackwoods’ dedicated e-business team, catering for all business sizes, types, needs, technology and processes.
The Blackwoods business also includes Bakers Construction and Industrial and Blackwoods Electrical Supplies."
" CSBP Ammonia, Ammonium Nitrate and Industrial Chemicals
CSBP manufactures and supplies ammonia, ammonium nitrate and industrial chemicals to the Western Australian resource and industrial sectors."
"Australian Vinyls is Australia's leading manufacturer and supplier of polyvinyl chloride resin. Australian manufacturers convert AV's resin into a variety of products including pipe, electric cable insulation, packaging, floor coverings and profiles. AV's subsidiary ModWood produces wood-plastic composite products from recycled wood and plastic."
"CSBP Fertilisers manufacture, import and distribute phosphate, nitrogen and potassium based fertilisers in blended, compound and liquid form for the Western Australian agricultural sector. CSBP also offers farmers a comprehensive soil and plant analysis service supported by the NUlogic interpretation model delivered by its network of staff and accredited partners in regional WA."
"Premier Power Sales Pty Ltd is a retailer of electricity to customers connected to the South West Interconnected System (SWIS) in Western Australia, with a particular focus on large commercial and industrial sites."
"Wesfarmers operates the Curragh mine situated 200 kilometres west of Rockhampton in Queensland’s Bowen Basin. As one of Australia’s largest independent coal producers, Curragh produces around nine million tonnes of metallurgical and steaming coal annually."
Add to that retail consumer stuff and insurance.
I defy any Board to be across the finer points of due diligence that it is a Boards duty to keep track of. The Board meetings must be a hoot. One minute we are talking coal mines, then fertilizer, then safety gloves then milk prices and the cost of nails.
At some point Wesfarmers will stumble because they are trying to be all things to all men, at which time the predators will buy in and break it up.
But don't take my word for it. Read the regular news stories about companies paying stratospheric prices for other companies, only to sell them for peanuts a few years later as "non performing assets" - at which time the private buyers clean up the mess and make a killing.
Wesfarmers seem to be going ok, maybe you need to revisit business economics 101
Generally appreciate your posts, however your statement about conglomerates ignores he success of the chaebols in Korea.
Pre Asian Financial crisis 8th largest world economy, dominated by a handful of conglomerates. Samsung and Hanjin for e.g.
Pre Asian Financial crisis 8th largest world economy, dominated by a handful of conglomerates. Samsung and Hanjin for e.g.
Take Wesfarmers for example:
"Wesfarmers Industrial and Safety division is the leading provider of industrial and safety products and services in Australia and New Zealand. It also has a presence in Indonesia, export activities across the region and sourcing and logistics operations in China. Customers across mining, oil and gas, retail, construction and infrastructure, manufacturing, health and government rely on our generalist and specialist businesses."
"Blackwoods is the largest Australian distributor of industrial, engineering and safety workplace needs. A single source supplier, Blackwoods aims to deliver great customer service, competitive prices and fast delivery. The company has recently introduced an innovative shutdown and inventory management solution for customers.
Blackwoods export into southern Asia, Africa and the south Pacific regions. The company’s business-to-business and internet ordering solutions are supported in-house by Blackwoods’ dedicated e-business team, catering for all business sizes, types, needs, technology and processes.
The Blackwoods business also includes Bakers Construction and Industrial and Blackwoods Electrical Supplies."
" CSBP Ammonia, Ammonium Nitrate and Industrial Chemicals
CSBP manufactures and supplies ammonia, ammonium nitrate and industrial chemicals to the Western Australian resource and industrial sectors."
"Australian Vinyls is Australia's leading manufacturer and supplier of polyvinyl chloride resin. Australian manufacturers convert AV's resin into a variety of products including pipe, electric cable insulation, packaging, floor coverings and profiles. AV's subsidiary ModWood produces wood-plastic composite products from recycled wood and plastic."
"CSBP Fertilisers manufacture, import and distribute phosphate, nitrogen and potassium based fertilisers in blended, compound and liquid form for the Western Australian agricultural sector. CSBP also offers farmers a comprehensive soil and plant analysis service supported by the NUlogic interpretation model delivered by its network of staff and accredited partners in regional WA."
"Premier Power Sales Pty Ltd is a retailer of electricity to customers connected to the South West Interconnected System (SWIS) in Western Australia, with a particular focus on large commercial and industrial sites."
"Wesfarmers operates the Curragh mine situated 200 kilometres west of Rockhampton in Queensland’s Bowen Basin. As one of Australia’s largest independent coal producers, Curragh produces around nine million tonnes of metallurgical and steaming coal annually."
Add to that retail consumer stuff and insurance.
I defy any Board to be across the finer points of due diligence that it is a Boards duty to keep track of. The Board meetings must be a hoot. One minute we are talking coal mines, then fertilizer, then safety gloves then milk prices and the cost of nails.
At some point Wesfarmers will stumble because they are trying to be all things to all men, at which time the predators will buy in and break it up.
But don't take my word for it. Read the regular news stories about companies paying stratospheric prices for other companies, only to sell them for peanuts a few years later as "non performing assets" - at which time the private buyers clean up the mess and make a killing.
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I'd like to see the response of these politicians and bureaucrats if we as taxpayers told then we had found some better and cheaper politicians and bureaucrats from off shore and they were no longer needed.
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their legacy problem which i believe is mainly centred around engineering practices
"Inflexible work practices" and "legacy engineering procedures" are mainly brought about by whomever wrote the.....
Those people banging the old "legacy engineers" drum are usually the ones who have not been around long enough to see the changes.
They (particularly the champagne sipping - first class travelling HR headkickers) generally despise those who have been around longer than themselves.
Last edited by Ngineer; 11th Apr 2014 at 09:32. Reason: More info
Look, there are many smart people here, much smarter than me, so can you please explain to me how it is that that fat Joe and Mr Rabbit say we (dumb LAME's) are over paid, and people working in the car industry (where I used to work ) are over paid and that's the reason that its all turning to poo. Well, I look at the wages of German and Japanese workers (LAME's A&P's or whatever they are called) and I see that I would be happy to earn what they do. So I ask, is the reason that everything is turning to poo because I am over paid (because of union action) or is it because our pollies. ie fat Joe and the rabbit just too dumb to set up the economy to give a decent living standard for the average person?
PS Also ofcourse, lets not forget the pensioners, those evil people living off Joe and Tony' back, ba@##rds
PS Also ofcourse, lets not forget the pensioners, those evil people living off Joe and Tony' back, ba@##rds
Last edited by Arnold E; 11th Apr 2014 at 09:50.
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There's that word " legacy " again.
It's as if it means "inherited" in a demeaning way.
As a matter of fact, one could be forgiven for thinking that if you say "legacy whatever" is a bad thing for long enough, others, ususally those less experienced, will begin to believe it. These people also believe that practices and procedures need to change to achieve efficiencies of scale when they do not.
The time that it takes to do an inspection or carry out maintenance of any kind might vary with the technology available, but the practices and professionalism used do not.
All the wisdom in aircraft maintenance has been inherited and learned, so is a valuable asset, yet some describe it as a liability.
It's as if it means "inherited" in a demeaning way.
As a matter of fact, one could be forgiven for thinking that if you say "legacy whatever" is a bad thing for long enough, others, ususally those less experienced, will begin to believe it. These people also believe that practices and procedures need to change to achieve efficiencies of scale when they do not.
The time that it takes to do an inspection or carry out maintenance of any kind might vary with the technology available, but the practices and professionalism used do not.
All the wisdom in aircraft maintenance has been inherited and learned, so is a valuable asset, yet some describe it as a liability.
Thread Starter
Well, I look at the wages of German and Japanese workers (LAME's A&P's or whatever they are called) and I see that I would be happy to earn what they do. So I ask, is the reason that everything is turning to poo because I am over paid (because of union action) or is it because our pollies.
In Australia we get people who have various qualifications working their way toward a License.
Australia has created a system that works and can keep producing LAMEs but now that system is apparently to expensive so the Government will assist in tearing it up by changing all the rules.
Sunfish
In the words of Sir Humphrey Appleby.." Prime Minister, I couldn't agree with you more but I will certainly try".
As a substantial holder of WES shares, I think they are an outrider. I would also put GE Capital in that bracket. As long as the businesses owned by conglomerates are #1 or #2 in their market, they will generally prosper and the holding company will, with devolved management, be able to overcome the natural tendency for conglomerates to self-destruct.
That said, I agree with your general comments on conglomerates.
To compare QF to WES doesn't actually make any sense, simply because QF Group has units that cannibalise each other in the SAME sector.
BA is an interesting case study.
The minute Ayling was fired, the first item of business for the new Australian CEO was to simplify the business and stop competing with itself. At the time BA owned a number of subsidiaries including, GO, Deutsche BA and Air Liberte. These rubbish subsidiaries consumed immense capital and more importantly management time. They were also a convenient excuse for management to explain the poor performance of BA's short haul business.
The sale or shutting down of these businesses was the first step in the salvation of BA. At the time they also owned 25% of QF and had two board seats. The reason BA sold out in short order was not the failed merger discussions but based purely on the fact that Dixon was replicating the structure that BA was shutting down.
Joyce may be the one to wear the brown smelly stuff but Dixon will own title to the wreckage.
In the words of Sir Humphrey Appleby.." Prime Minister, I couldn't agree with you more but I will certainly try".
As a substantial holder of WES shares, I think they are an outrider. I would also put GE Capital in that bracket. As long as the businesses owned by conglomerates are #1 or #2 in their market, they will generally prosper and the holding company will, with devolved management, be able to overcome the natural tendency for conglomerates to self-destruct.
That said, I agree with your general comments on conglomerates.
To compare QF to WES doesn't actually make any sense, simply because QF Group has units that cannibalise each other in the SAME sector.
BA is an interesting case study.
The minute Ayling was fired, the first item of business for the new Australian CEO was to simplify the business and stop competing with itself. At the time BA owned a number of subsidiaries including, GO, Deutsche BA and Air Liberte. These rubbish subsidiaries consumed immense capital and more importantly management time. They were also a convenient excuse for management to explain the poor performance of BA's short haul business.
The sale or shutting down of these businesses was the first step in the salvation of BA. At the time they also owned 25% of QF and had two board seats. The reason BA sold out in short order was not the failed merger discussions but based purely on the fact that Dixon was replicating the structure that BA was shutting down.
Joyce may be the one to wear the brown smelly stuff but Dixon will own title to the wreckage.
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Sunfish
Agreed, Joyce could actually enjoy wearing 'it' and Dixon gave it to him ...
Been a slow week on the 5000 job loss front/lets keep everyone scared about losing their job. Don't forget they had to stop all AC flying that weekend in 2011 due safety...
Joyce et al is about as organised and well thought out as Red Q was to save QF by flying all Biz class A320 in China...
FFRATS
Joyce may be the one to wear the brown smelly stuff but Dixon will own title to the wreckage.
Been a slow week on the 5000 job loss front/lets keep everyone scared about losing their job. Don't forget they had to stop all AC flying that weekend in 2011 due safety...
Joyce et al is about as organised and well thought out as Red Q was to save QF by flying all Biz class A320 in China...
FFRATS
short flights long nights
Yes, it's very strange how he seems to think it's perfectly acceptable to keep everyone in the company scared for their future for weeks on end.
The man seems to have no clue and no direction
The man seems to have no clue and no direction
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AJ's announcement of 5000 jobs to go & pay freezes across the board were directed at the financial & investment community.
The impact of those statements on employees is collateral damage in AJ's war on a weakened share price.
The impact of those statements on employees is collateral damage in AJ's war on a weakened share price.
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That raises another interesting point.
If that announcement was made specifically for the markets and share price and it did not reflect what was really going on, then doesn't that raise issues re "false and deceptive conduct" under Corporations Law?
I did say "if".
If that announcement was made specifically for the markets and share price and it did not reflect what was really going on, then doesn't that raise issues re "false and deceptive conduct" under Corporations Law?
I did say "if".
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fait accompli
AJ's announcements implied the pay freezes & the equivalent of 5000 full time jobs to go as a certainty.
Meanwhile, we are collectively struggling to see where the 5000 jobs will come from.
So too, the Enterprise bargaining processes when it comes time to negotiating labour agreements.
As mentioned by a different poster earlier on this thread. The vast majority of mainline pilots aren't prepared to give this mob ANY pay freeze.
MC.
AJ's announcements implied the pay freezes & the equivalent of 5000 full time jobs to go as a certainty.
Meanwhile, we are collectively struggling to see where the 5000 jobs will come from.
So too, the Enterprise bargaining processes when it comes time to negotiating labour agreements.
As mentioned by a different poster earlier on this thread. The vast majority of mainline pilots aren't prepared to give this mob ANY pay freeze.
MC.
As mentioned by a different poster earlier on this thread. The vast majority of mainline pilots aren't prepared to give this mob ANY pay freeze.