Problems at Brindabella?
You blokes are a disgrace! Have a heart this time of year.. The Brindabella crew didn't pay for their endorsements, merely entered a bond scheme common around the country where if you bail you cough up the dough. Problem with this one is the company bailed & the crew are high and dry up to 30K in the hole with presumably no entitlements. Good luck to all affected
Your post doesn't make sense.
You say they are "30k in the hole" but "crew didn't pay for their endorsements".
Which one is it? Either they crew paid the 30k or Brindabella paid it. It can't be both.
Simples.
The way I see it the crews paid for it, but the repayment of the debt deferred in lieu of a return of service. As gazelle says though, if the company folds the crew are the ones left with the debt! but who would have thought that? Dodgy practice which quite frankly should have rung some alarm bells.
Easy to say I know, and probably impossible to fight when it becomes a condition of employment. Lessons, hard lessons. Here's hoping the receivers show some compassion and a level of understanding, especially at this time of year.
Easy to say I know, and probably impossible to fight when it becomes a condition of employment. Lessons, hard lessons. Here's hoping the receivers show some compassion and a level of understanding, especially at this time of year.
Here's hoping the receivers show some compassion and a level of understanding
I really wish the AFAP would focus our money on the big issues, rather than try and bail out a few select individuals who have made bad financial decisions. Paying 30k for a Jetsteam endorsement? Seriously?
...or the company went bust, which was never in anyone's plans.
Yes we are all wiser now but the AFAP agreed to the scheme so it would be great if the AFAP can help the guys who felt the fear, stepped up, and were let down by Woodley & Co. What's the point of being a union member if the Union lets you fall into a hole and won't help you out of it?
Have a heart and put yourself in the shoes of the young pilots, jumping at a regional t/prop job at a time when industry consolidation means there are very few opportunities.
When I was in my 20's, even though the major players owned almost everything there were still individual organisations hiring pilots; I interviewed for Ansett mainline, Eastern, Qantas, Aeropelican, Hazeltons and Kendells in the space of about 6 months in 2000/01 (then Yanda, Country Connection & Ansett all fell over and flooded the market with experienced pilots, etc).
Today of those regionals there is only one left, plus Rex and VARA. Fewer opportunities and the Brindabellican merger then collapse takes out 2 more opportunities.
They took a risk - they backed themselves - it would be nice if we could all now back them too.
What do you say, Lawrie? Lennie? Simon?
Okay, so let's get a few things straight then.
1. This wasn't a "bond" arrangement.
2. Like waren9 said, this should NEVER have been endorsed by the AFAP. I'm absolutely flabbergasted if they supported it.
3. If the AFAP did in fact endorse this arrangement, the AFAP should bail out the entirety of the money owed by these pilots for providing stupid advice.
4. The receivers, most likely, won't have a bar of it and will wipe their hands of any responsibility, so expect nothing there.
Despite the fact that the AFAP allegedly supported the scheme, regardless, it is still RIDICULOUS that these pilots essentially personally secured a loan for the company on the premise of buying into a job.
Prostituting yourself to get up the ladder a bit quicker can leave you with a nasty STD. For those who resisted the dangled carrot, and told Brindabella to stick it, good on you.
1. This wasn't a "bond" arrangement.
2. Like waren9 said, this should NEVER have been endorsed by the AFAP. I'm absolutely flabbergasted if they supported it.
3. If the AFAP did in fact endorse this arrangement, the AFAP should bail out the entirety of the money owed by these pilots for providing stupid advice.
4. The receivers, most likely, won't have a bar of it and will wipe their hands of any responsibility, so expect nothing there.
Despite the fact that the AFAP allegedly supported the scheme, regardless, it is still RIDICULOUS that these pilots essentially personally secured a loan for the company on the premise of buying into a job.
Prostituting yourself to get up the ladder a bit quicker can leave you with a nasty STD. For those who resisted the dangled carrot, and told Brindabella to stick it, good on you.
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My old man works for a non aviation related organisation next door to YSCB. A few people there have mates at Brindabella. They've organised a Christmas appeal of sorts for the Brindabella staff and most of office has chipped in.
Good to see that community spirit still lives
Good to see that community spirit still lives
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I interviewed at the Duck before this new loan scheme replaced the old 5K bond. It was discussed however, as the company was trying to push it through immediately, though it did not come into effect until 6 months or so later with the 2011 EBA.
When I asked questions during the interview about this method of bonding, I was reassured that the only way that I would be liable to pay out the loan was if I resigned within the bond period and that in any other case - ie my employment terminated or the company folded that I would not have to pay for it.
Had I been asked and agreed to undertake such a loan in my own name the plan was to have sought some legal advice before signing to ensure that I would not be liable for circumstances other than resigning within the bond period. Until now, I had assumed that those who took up this loan which was being paid for by the company had some protection against this - but then I never saw the contracts.
This revelation to me adds some fuel to the disgust, disappointment and sadness of the last weeks events. The running of two great companies into the ground, the suspension of all services, being so gutless that senior management left the country that night unable to face their workers who were stood down and left with nothing. The guys and girls - and not just the tech crew that I know but everyone who had a role to play are a hard working and talented bunch and did not deserve it to end like this and are now trying to scramble for work to be able to pay their mortgages and support themselves and families.
I hope that there is some positive outcome, that either a buyer can be found or that whoever takes on the routes can take on as many of the employees left without jobs. Good on Rex for stepping in so quickly to offer some jobs at a time of year where recruitment often slows to a stand still.
What a loss, a kick in the guts for those involved and a real shame for the industry.
When I asked questions during the interview about this method of bonding, I was reassured that the only way that I would be liable to pay out the loan was if I resigned within the bond period and that in any other case - ie my employment terminated or the company folded that I would not have to pay for it.
Had I been asked and agreed to undertake such a loan in my own name the plan was to have sought some legal advice before signing to ensure that I would not be liable for circumstances other than resigning within the bond period. Until now, I had assumed that those who took up this loan which was being paid for by the company had some protection against this - but then I never saw the contracts.
This revelation to me adds some fuel to the disgust, disappointment and sadness of the last weeks events. The running of two great companies into the ground, the suspension of all services, being so gutless that senior management left the country that night unable to face their workers who were stood down and left with nothing. The guys and girls - and not just the tech crew that I know but everyone who had a role to play are a hard working and talented bunch and did not deserve it to end like this and are now trying to scramble for work to be able to pay their mortgages and support themselves and families.
I hope that there is some positive outcome, that either a buyer can be found or that whoever takes on the routes can take on as many of the employees left without jobs. Good on Rex for stepping in so quickly to offer some jobs at a time of year where recruitment often slows to a stand still.
What a loss, a kick in the guts for those involved and a real shame for the industry.
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The questions still needs to be asked.
Why did the company go under?
Who was making the decisions?
What was the strategy?
How in Gods name does one pick up two viable (albeit small) aviation companies and within 12 months it turns to crud?!
Why did the CEO bugger off to the UK?
Was it to raise more funds or had the decision been made to close the doors well before Saturday and he had quit?
I've got my thoughts but it would interesting to see others views who've run a business!
Why did the company go under?
Who was making the decisions?
What was the strategy?
How in Gods name does one pick up two viable (albeit small) aviation companies and within 12 months it turns to crud?!
Why did the CEO bugger off to the UK?
Was it to raise more funds or had the decision been made to close the doors well before Saturday and he had quit?
I've got my thoughts but it would interesting to see others views who've run a business!
If you read above, GADRIVR, there are opinions from at least 1 former Aeropelican Training captain and a middle management type.
They have accurate information on how Brindabellican was murdered.
... might just add that the low-cost carrier model only works when you have a large body of customers used to travelling like sheep.
Treating staff like monkeys and customers like a captive audience will kill any goodwill you previously enjoyed.
They have accurate information on how Brindabellican was murdered.
... might just add that the low-cost carrier model only works when you have a large body of customers used to travelling like sheep.
Treating staff like monkeys and customers like a captive audience will kill any goodwill you previously enjoyed.
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How about
- taking on too many routes without proper resources
- the engineering culture - 'sign it off today, we'll look at it next week'
- CASA Part 145 where the pilots can't pick up the problems / maintenance issues
- having to pay big $ to send pilots to Florida to so sim checks
Just a few of the many problems - feel free to add more.
- taking on too many routes without proper resources
- the engineering culture - 'sign it off today, we'll look at it next week'
- CASA Part 145 where the pilots can't pick up the problems / maintenance issues
- having to pay big $ to send pilots to Florida to so sim checks
Just a few of the many problems - feel free to add more.
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Well............I reckon I've just about seen it all! Pilots are debtors in the event of the airline collapsing and a union sanctions this? You're kidding right?
Worse still there are clowns willing to sign up for this? And the rest of the pilot community is expected to have sympathy for their actions? You're kidding right?
What a disgusting, immoral way to treat employees and you lot see this as the new normal?
Worse still there are clowns willing to sign up for this? And the rest of the pilot community is expected to have sympathy for their actions? You're kidding right?
What a disgusting, immoral way to treat employees and you lot see this as the new normal?
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I've been bonded for three endorsements, my last was $35,000.
If any of those had needed paying, for whatever the reason, I would never have even thought of approaching the AFAP to take on MY responsibility.
I didn't become a member of the Federation for it to look after my financial decisions, and I don't see it as the responsibility of the Federation to look after the financial decisions that I or others make.
On another note, having been with a company that went under, all flight deck and cabin ended up with great jobs, I have no doubt that you guys from Brindabella will do the same.
Cheers
If any of those had needed paying, for whatever the reason, I would never have even thought of approaching the AFAP to take on MY responsibility.
I didn't become a member of the Federation for it to look after my financial decisions, and I don't see it as the responsibility of the Federation to look after the financial decisions that I or others make.
On another note, having been with a company that went under, all flight deck and cabin ended up with great jobs, I have no doubt that you guys from Brindabella will do the same.
Cheers
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"Prostituting yourself to get up the ladder a bit quicker can leave you with a nasty STD. For those who resisted the dangled carrot, and told Brindabella to stick it, good on you."
Quite frankly, an unfair statement as the pilots I knew there HAD the relevant experience. So to a lot of them this was a good job in a home town.
What would you do if you had a wife/ husband, two kids and your on the award in the outback?
Also we are not noting that the contract that was presented took out insurance for just this sort of situation. In the event the company could not make repayments, the pilot is insured.
Have a bit of heart!
I wish all the very best to the guys and gals at Brindabella.
Quite frankly, an unfair statement as the pilots I knew there HAD the relevant experience. So to a lot of them this was a good job in a home town.
What would you do if you had a wife/ husband, two kids and your on the award in the outback?
Also we are not noting that the contract that was presented took out insurance for just this sort of situation. In the event the company could not make repayments, the pilot is insured.
Have a bit of heart!
I wish all the very best to the guys and gals at Brindabella.
Sigh.
So let me get this question you posed straight:
Q: If I were married with two kids and hence had to support my entire family, would I personally secure a 30k loan just to work for a company who obviously are not in a good way because they can't even afford to pay for my training?
A: No friggin way.
There are thousands of pilots flying all around Australia who did exactly what you paint as impossible and un-livable - support a wife and kids on the GA award in the middle of bum-f*** nowhere. And they ended up in good jobs in capital cities without buying into it.
This is the whole problem now. Pilots only are about number 1, and only ever look short term. They want the best job, right now, at any expense, and are willing to walk over someone's grave to get there. End result - crap industry.
I don't personally wish harm on these people, but for God's sake, when are people going to start acting with some responsibility and common sense?
Well then what's their problem then?
So let me get this question you posed straight:
Q: If I were married with two kids and hence had to support my entire family, would I personally secure a 30k loan just to work for a company who obviously are not in a good way because they can't even afford to pay for my training?
A: No friggin way.
There are thousands of pilots flying all around Australia who did exactly what you paint as impossible and un-livable - support a wife and kids on the GA award in the middle of bum-f*** nowhere. And they ended up in good jobs in capital cities without buying into it.
This is the whole problem now. Pilots only are about number 1, and only ever look short term. They want the best job, right now, at any expense, and are willing to walk over someone's grave to get there. End result - crap industry.
I don't personally wish harm on these people, but for God's sake, when are people going to start acting with some responsibility and common sense?
Also we are not noting that the contract that was presented took out insurance for just this sort of situation. In the event the company could not make repayments, the pilot is insured.
I'm not suggesting the AFAP use members' subs to wipe out the pilots' debt, merely that in a goodwill gesture they could cover the interest on those debts until said pilots are back on their feet. Ex gratia.
If the pilot was half way through that period the interest would only be in the vicinity of $1000pa.
If the pilot was half way through that period the interest would only be in the vicinity of $1000pa.
Slippery Pete
Pilots only are about number 1, and only ever look short term.
As soon as they were offered an interview, they buggered off. Some of these pilots joined without 500 multi and were ICUS-ed up (at considerable expense) to meet command requirements.
If no pilot had ever renegged on a ROSO, we would not have this situation where businesses have to take steps to protect the investment they made in your training. It's a two-way street
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I'm not suggesting the AFAP use members' subs to wipe out the pilots' debt, merely that in a goodwill gesture they could cover the interest on those debts until said pilots are back on their feet. Ex gratia.
If the pilot was half way through that period the interest would only be in the vicinity of $1000pa.
If the pilot was half way through that period the interest would only be in the vicinity of $1000pa.
Actually, rethink, I went to the casino last Fri night and lost about $330.
Bugger it, I will ring the AFAP on Monday to see if they will cover my gambling debts too
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I'll throw my 2 cents in and you can do with as you wish.....
Why did the company go under?
A combination of a few factors - poor management (both with the oldFrench/Vietnamese and the new Irish/English combos), lack of discipline onstaff (especially crew), throwing money away (e.g. moved the J41 from BNEto SYD and left 4 cabin crew and about 6 J41 pilots in Brissie on RDOs for about 3months on FULL PAY!!!), low load factors, taking on too many routes withnot enough air craft to service them, or crew for that matter.
And thenobviously lax maintenance on the aircraft which led to CASA grounding the fleet.If you’re not flying then you are not making any money. No cash flow broughteverything to a halt.
Brindy had earned themselves a bad rep with the regionalcommunities for cancelling flights willy-nilly, poor customer service and lackof communication from inexperienced customer service team, under staffedoperations team.
Who was making the decisions?
CEO and CCO. They told everyone exactly what they wanted to hear. Manymeetings behind closed doors. Everyone knew something was up but if you asked,then it was always "so many great things to come - things are going tochange" and it never did. The QF code share was a great opportunity, andmany thought it would make things better. But even that was a total balls upfrom the start. They didn't have the system access QF wanted them to have. Nocommunication in the event of U/S AC.
It’s no wonder they went into receivership when they paid for the CEO tocome from Ireland and FIFO every 3 weeks to go home and see his wife and kids!
What was the strategy?
To expand the business. The problem was that there wasn't enough aircraft orcrew to support the new routes they were awarded - MRZ and OAG, plus OOMseasonally.
MRZ is a great route with very good pax numbers. The problem is that it wasawarded on the provision that it was a J41 that operated the flight and it was3 flights a day. The midday flight was often cancelled so the aircraft could beutilised elsewhere, and the plane was downgraded to a metro or J32 if the J41was US, which was often. The community never wanted Brindy, but they flew themin the beginning. But Brindy being Brindy ballsed it up and then the paxnumbers began to drop.
They should have never even started the SYD-OAG route. I still believe thiswas a direct retaliation for Rex coming on to SYD-NTL. Decisions based on emotions rather than business.
Passenger numbers were poor from day 1. OAG flights were always the first toget cancelled. The community grew to be aware of this so didn't even botherbooking FQ - always went with Rex.
The idea behind making the company bigger may have been great. But theexecution of the entire thing was crap. Staff didn't know what to tellcustomers as management hadn't told them anything. They tried to be too big too quickly and it was the death of them
How in God’s name does one pick up two viable (albeit small) aviationcompanies and within 12 months it turns to crud?!
I ask myself the same question.....
Why did the CEO bugger off to the UK?
Was it to raise more funds or had the decision been made to close the doorswell before Saturday and he had quit?
I've got my thoughts but it would interesting to see others views who've run abusiness!
Apparently this was for a meeting with the board of directors and investorsto explain exactly what had happened. They flew him over for a face toface meeting. I think he left on the Friday. The announcement was made on the Sundayand he was back in Australia on the following Tuesday. I think he is stillhere?
And on another note Horatio is correct - the pilots never paid the loan. it was taken out in their name but the company made the repayments, the only reason they would have had to make a payment was if they left the company within their bonded service (2 years) which many had done in the past to move onto bigger and better things. Its a natural attrition - the young guns never intend to stay at small regional airlines for long. they want to be at QF with the big boys.
Apparently there was meant to be insurance in place in case the company went belly up? either way, you guys are being a tad harsh on the blokes that have just lost their jobs and have a 30k debt in their name and nothing to show for it. they shouldn't have to pay it - its a loan for training they now wont receive!!!
Why did the company go under?
A combination of a few factors - poor management (both with the oldFrench/Vietnamese and the new Irish/English combos), lack of discipline onstaff (especially crew), throwing money away (e.g. moved the J41 from BNEto SYD and left 4 cabin crew and about 6 J41 pilots in Brissie on RDOs for about 3months on FULL PAY!!!), low load factors, taking on too many routes withnot enough air craft to service them, or crew for that matter.
And thenobviously lax maintenance on the aircraft which led to CASA grounding the fleet.If you’re not flying then you are not making any money. No cash flow broughteverything to a halt.
Brindy had earned themselves a bad rep with the regionalcommunities for cancelling flights willy-nilly, poor customer service and lackof communication from inexperienced customer service team, under staffedoperations team.
Who was making the decisions?
CEO and CCO. They told everyone exactly what they wanted to hear. Manymeetings behind closed doors. Everyone knew something was up but if you asked,then it was always "so many great things to come - things are going tochange" and it never did. The QF code share was a great opportunity, andmany thought it would make things better. But even that was a total balls upfrom the start. They didn't have the system access QF wanted them to have. Nocommunication in the event of U/S AC.
It’s no wonder they went into receivership when they paid for the CEO tocome from Ireland and FIFO every 3 weeks to go home and see his wife and kids!
What was the strategy?
To expand the business. The problem was that there wasn't enough aircraft orcrew to support the new routes they were awarded - MRZ and OAG, plus OOMseasonally.
MRZ is a great route with very good pax numbers. The problem is that it wasawarded on the provision that it was a J41 that operated the flight and it was3 flights a day. The midday flight was often cancelled so the aircraft could beutilised elsewhere, and the plane was downgraded to a metro or J32 if the J41was US, which was often. The community never wanted Brindy, but they flew themin the beginning. But Brindy being Brindy ballsed it up and then the paxnumbers began to drop.
They should have never even started the SYD-OAG route. I still believe thiswas a direct retaliation for Rex coming on to SYD-NTL. Decisions based on emotions rather than business.
Passenger numbers were poor from day 1. OAG flights were always the first toget cancelled. The community grew to be aware of this so didn't even botherbooking FQ - always went with Rex.
The idea behind making the company bigger may have been great. But theexecution of the entire thing was crap. Staff didn't know what to tellcustomers as management hadn't told them anything. They tried to be too big too quickly and it was the death of them
How in God’s name does one pick up two viable (albeit small) aviationcompanies and within 12 months it turns to crud?!
I ask myself the same question.....
Why did the CEO bugger off to the UK?
Was it to raise more funds or had the decision been made to close the doorswell before Saturday and he had quit?
I've got my thoughts but it would interesting to see others views who've run abusiness!
Apparently this was for a meeting with the board of directors and investorsto explain exactly what had happened. They flew him over for a face toface meeting. I think he left on the Friday. The announcement was made on the Sundayand he was back in Australia on the following Tuesday. I think he is stillhere?
And on another note Horatio is correct - the pilots never paid the loan. it was taken out in their name but the company made the repayments, the only reason they would have had to make a payment was if they left the company within their bonded service (2 years) which many had done in the past to move onto bigger and better things. Its a natural attrition - the young guns never intend to stay at small regional airlines for long. they want to be at QF with the big boys.
Apparently there was meant to be insurance in place in case the company went belly up? either way, you guys are being a tad harsh on the blokes that have just lost their jobs and have a 30k debt in their name and nothing to show for it. they shouldn't have to pay it - its a loan for training they now wont receive!!!